The Great Romulan Evacuation

[Mars]

if every hundred years we can have a supernova that threatens to destroy the galaxy, what does this mean?

I don't see the problem, as the movie certainly did not claim that all supernova explosions threaten the galaxy. Only this single one did - and the unlikeliness of such a thing may be the reason Spock found it so difficult to convert anybody to his cause.

the same is true of the original Battlestar Galactica, they used the term "Galaxy" as a substitute for the word "Star System"

But they were entitled to, as the heroes weren't human; their "English" featured a lot of alien expressions anyway. Same with Cylons: "vector" instead of "sector" to describe a point or region in space. In neither case was there any indication that these words would also be in use in their more usual sense (galaxy = structure like Milky Way, vector = mathematical expression of direction times magnitude).

Timo Saloniemi

Actually they were a lost tribe of humans, humans not humanoids. They had some alien words like centon, micron, and yaren to give the setting an unearthly feel to it. They really went overboard in giving them superpowers in Galactica 1980 and UFO style saucer spaceships with invisibility cloaks to fly around in.

I like the more realistic tone of the new Battlestar Galactica, at least they did try to get their science right.

 

[RPJOB]

Nebulas in Trek are much more numerous and much denser that they are in reality. Given the choice between scientific reality and The Battle of the Mutara Nebula, TWOK is going to win every time.

Is it scientifically accurate that most of the planets we see have 1g gravity fields and an atmosphere so much like Earth that we don't need filter masks or supplemental oxygen?

Keep Trek self consistent in it's approach to science. Keep the broad stokes (Supernovas are big explosions) and don't sweat the small stuff (Not quite that big but it's a story point).

 

[Timo]

Both of the above things make a great deal of scientific sense in the Trek context. What with all these starships blowing up in battles and accidents, the Trek galaxy would be littered with local gas clouds of intriguing density. And since humanoid-like intellect has roamed the galaxy for at least four billion years, it's a wonder there are worlds left that have not been transformed into duplicate Earths!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RPJOB]

if every hundred years we can have a supernova that threatens to destroy the galaxy, what does this mean?

I don't see the problem, as the movie certainly did not claim that all supernova explosions threaten the galaxy. Only this single one did - and the unlikeliness of such a thing may be the reason Spock found it so difficult to convert anybody to his cause.

the same is true of the original Battlestar Galactica, they used the term "Galaxy" as a substitute for the word "Star System"

But they were entitled to, as the heroes weren't human; their "English" featured a lot of alien expressions anyway. Same with Cylons: "vector" instead of "sector" to describe a point or region in space. In neither case was there any indication that these words would also be in use in their more usual sense (galaxy = structure like Milky Way, vector = mathematical expression of direction times magnitude).

Timo Saloniemi

Actually they were a lost tribe of humans, humans not humanoids. They had some alien words like centon, micron, and yaren to give the setting an unearthly feel to it. They really went overboard in giving them superpowers in Galactica 1980 and UFO style saucer spaceships with invisibility cloaks to fly around in.

I like the more realistic tone of the new Battlestar Galactica, at least they did try to get their science right.

You mean like their difficulty in finding water? Our system is full of the stuff. Earth is actually one of the drier places if you count the various moons, dwarf planets and comets in the outer system.

Drama > Science

 

[Mars]

I don't see the problem, as the movie certainly did not claim that all supernova explosions threaten the galaxy. Only this single one did - and the unlikeliness of such a thing may be the reason Spock found it so difficult to convert anybody to his cause.



But they were entitled to, as the heroes weren't human; their "English" featured a lot of alien expressions anyway. Same with Cylons: "vector" instead of "sector" to describe a point or region in space. In neither case was there any indication that these words would also be in use in their more usual sense (galaxy = structure like Milky Way, vector = mathematical expression of direction times magnitude).

Timo Saloniemi

Actually they were a lost tribe of humans, humans not humanoids. They had some alien words like centon, micron, and yaren to give the setting an unearthly feel to it. They really went overboard in giving them superpowers in Galactica 1980 and UFO style saucer spaceships with invisibility cloaks to fly around in.

I like the more realistic tone of the new Battlestar Galactica, at least they did try to get their science right.

You mean like their difficulty in finding water? Our system is full of the stuff. Earth is actually one of the drier places if you count the various moons, dwarf planets and comets in the outer system.

Drama > Science

Compared to what goes on in Trek, lack of water is small potatoes. BSG for example didn't blow up any planets, it didn't have black hole projectors, no rayguns, no transporters, and its doctors could not work miracles like Dr. McCoy could.

 

[Dukhat]

Chekov Prime didn't have a older brother. Sulu specifically said he was an only child.

So it is word against word - and I should think Chekov himself ought to know!

Huh? Piotr didn't exist. Chekov created Piotr out of thin air as an excuse to fight the Klingons while he was under the mind-altering influence of an alien. Presumably Sulu said he was an only child because Chekov told him so under more normal conditions.

 

[Romulus Prime]

I just had an epiphany! All this talk about Chekov's age/parents caused it. Nero's first appearance, where he destroys the ship that Kirk was to be born on is the key to the changes in the time line. It makes Kirk lose his father and has a whole ship load of deaths that change the time line hundreds of ways.

That's only what the writers of the movie have been saying for the past four years!
And what the novels and comics say. And the Star Trek Online videogame.
There's even an official diagram:

Can't thank you enough for posting that.

The timeline presented here can't really be presenting the original "Prime" universe considering the Borg and events from 1st Contact establish that history has been altered from the moment the Borg Queen and her ball end up in the 21st century and start mucking around with everything.

In other words, the NuTrek reality is an offshoot of the offshoot reality created by the Borg traveling to Earth's past during FC. And that borgified Earth that Picard and crew sees prior to leaving the 24th century? It has to exist in another reality, otherwise they would have seen nothing.

 

[Romulus Prime]

if you're referring to Chekov, I'm basically banking on his parents age prior to Nero being different as well since his ends up different than in TOS.

Can't see the logic there. How would the age of the parents be relevant to when they spawn Chekov? At the very least, there'd be a range of thirty years from start to end of the mother's fertility, discounting 23rd century medical advances.

The point is that NuTrek's reality is not the same as that which is in TOS. There are apparently some minor differences prior to Nero arriving.....actually, in light of the timeline presented, there are MAJOR differences since the Borg went back in time and ended up changing events in the past. But again, the point remains consistent - events in the NuTrek universe may not necessarily copy events which take place (or will take place) in other realities: Re: The destruction of Romulus may never occur in the NuTrek reality.

 

[Set Harth]

All these responses, and still the point I made about the aspect of differences in that reality remains.

Not really, if each supposed example was debunked. It's not a good sign when your list of things that were supposedly already different starts off with the age of a character born after Nero's appearance and an appeal to ignorance.

They weren't, and if you're referring to Chekov, I'm basically banking on his parents age prior to Nero being different as well since his ends up different than in TOS.

Like I said: debunked. There is no evidence whatsoever that the ages of his parents changed. You can't take a change from after Nero's appearance and "bank on" speculative ideation somehow converting it into a change from before Nero's appearance. That is, you can speculate all you want, but that doesn't equate to having found actual evidence of a preexisting difference in the timeline.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I just had an epiphany! All this talk about Chekov's age/parents caused it. Nero's first appearance, where he destroys the ship that Kirk was to be born on is the key to the changes in the time line. It makes Kirk lose his father and has a whole ship load of deaths that change the time line hundreds of ways.

That's only what the writers of the movie have been saying for the past four years!
And what the novels and comics say. And the Star Trek Online videogame.
There's even an official diagram:

Can't thank you enough for posting that.

The timeline presented here can't really be presenting the original "Prime" universe considering the Borg and events from 1st Contact establish that history has been altered from the moment the Borg Queen and her ball end up in the 21st century and start mucking around with everything.

In other words, the NuTrek reality is an offshoot of the offshoot reality created by the Borg traveling to Earth's past during FC. And that borgified Earth that Picard and crew sees prior to leaving the 24th century? It has to exist in another reality, otherwise they would have seen nothing.

There's no basis for that outside of fan theories, and in fact this exchange from the Voyager episode "Relativity" directly refutes it -

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to
prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop
Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They
succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise
to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the
Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its
existence to the Borg.


Not a branching timeline, but a loop.

 

[Romulus Prime]

Not really, if each supposed example was debunked. It's not a good sign when your list of things that were supposedly already different starts off with the age of a character born after Nero's appearance and an appeal to ignorance.

They weren't, and if you're referring to Chekov, I'm basically banking on his parents age prior to Nero being different as well since his ends up different than in TOS.

Like I said: debunked. There is no evidence whatsoever that the ages of his parents changed. You can't take a change from after Nero's appearance and "bank on" speculative ideation somehow converting it into a change from before Nero's appearance. That is, you can speculate all you want, but that doesn't equate to having found actual evidence of a preexisting difference in the timeline.

Remove the Chekov factor and look at the timeline + the fact it a Parallel reality, and you're still left with speculation as whether or not Romulus will be obliterated in the future.


** leaves 10 cents for you.

 

[Set Harth]

you're still left with speculation as whether or not Romulus will be obliterated in the future.

So what? We know things are playing out differently in this timeline. What bearing does that have on the assumption that the Abramsverse was a preexisting separate timeline before Nero's appearance?

 

[Romulus Prime]

The timeline presented here can't really be presenting the original "Prime" universe considering the Borg and events from 1st Contact establish that history has been altered from the moment the Borg Queen and her ball end up in the 21st century and start mucking around with everything.

In other words, the NuTrek reality is an offshoot of the offshoot reality created by the Borg traveling to Earth's past during FC. And that borgified Earth that Picard and crew sees prior to leaving the 24th century? It has to exist in another reality, otherwise they would have seen nothing.

There's no basis for that outside of fan theories, and in fact this exchange from the Voyager episode "Relativity" directly refutes it -

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to
prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop
Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They
succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise
to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the
Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its
existence to the Borg.


Not a branching timeline, but a loop.

Then there is no way the crew could have possibly seen a Borgified 24th century Earth since they were destined to prevent it. Way to go, Voyager!

Want an additional reference for why their techno-BS convo doesn't add up? Try Yesterday's Enterprise where a reality consisting of a Klingon-Federation War MUST continue to exist in order for an alternate 24th century Tasha Yar to exist anywhere past the time she actually dies in Season 1 - an existence which results in the creation of Sela.

It's practically the same damn thing, despite the silly explanation from Voyager. Thanks for posting it though - made me snicker.

 

[Romulus Prime]

you're still left with speculation as whether or not Romulus will be obliterated in the future.

So what? We know things are playing out differently in this timeline.

If you look back at the thread posts, you'll realize that's exactly what I've been saying. The other stuff just adds on the premise that it's different.

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm going to start referring the Hobus Star explosion as an UberNova. That way we don't have to get hung up on the supernova thing. Why did it threaten the entire galaxy? Because it was an UBERNOVA! Way worse than a supernova.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

The timeline presented here can't really be presenting the original "Prime" universe considering the Borg and events from 1st Contact establish that history has been altered from the moment the Borg Queen and her ball end up in the 21st century and start mucking around with everything.

In other words, the NuTrek reality is an offshoot of the offshoot reality created by the Borg traveling to Earth's past during FC. And that borgified Earth that Picard and crew sees prior to leaving the 24th century? It has to exist in another reality, otherwise they would have seen nothing.

There's no basis for that outside of fan theories, and in fact this exchange from the Voyager episode "Relativity" directly refutes it -

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to
prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop
Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They
succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise
to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the
Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its
existence to the Borg.


Not a branching timeline, but a loop.

Then there is no way the crew could have possibly seen a Borgified 24th century Earth since they were destined to prevent it. Way to go, Voyager!

Want an additional reference for why their techno-BS convo doesn't add up? Try Yesterday's Enterprise where a reality consisting of a Klingon-Federation War MUST continue to exist in order for an alternate 24th century Tasha Yar to exist anywhere past the time she actually dies in Season 1 - an existence which results in the creation of Sela.

It's practically the same damn thing, despite the silly explanation from Voyager. Thanks for posting it though - made me snicker.

Thanks for that takedown of VOY: Relativity, Romulus Prime. I have been saying the same damn thing for years. The writers of VOY thought they were being clever when they added that nod to First Contact by Seven of Nine's admission. It's bogus. The Federation only owes the Borg their advancement it weapons ans ships since their introduction in TNG: Q Who showed how outclassed the Galaxy class ship was.

Seven Of Nine states that the events of First Contact were predestination/casualty loop, where the prevention of events acutually causes them to happen. If you think about it 7 of 9's admission makes no sense. The Borg travel back in time and succeed in conquering Earth, FROM A 24th CENTURY POV. The Enterprise-E was built in the 24th Century by the Federation. So how can it possibly exist in a future where the Federation never happend? The Borg changed history, the ENT-E trapped in the temporal wake (displaced in time which is how they weren't affected) followed the Borg back and made sure history would happen similar to they way it was recorded by the 24th century.

That's not a casualty loop. The loop can't be the Borg travel back in time and succeed in their goals in the 21st century (which the ENT-E crew and we the audience saw from a 24th century pov), and that the Borg would fail in the 21st century and not assimilate Earth. And yet somehow 7 of 9 knows the realities of both of these futures? BS. VOY writers tried to be clever and failed at it.

If anything First Contact shows us string theory time travel. Linear time travel that affects what the future was and negates it making a new future. Star Trek 09 is chaos theory or rather butterfly effect time travel. Changing events of established history which develops a universe vastly different from the one the travelers originated from. Under chaos theory the travelers timeline will continue to go on since butterfly effect is an alternate timeline of events. String theory First Contact was done under linear time travel so the future was in real jeopardy of being rewritten and extinguished.
Yesterday's Enterprise and Sela would be Chaos Theory/ Butterfly effect. Only difference is an act that should of happened didn't because of a hole in the universe, which Picard fixed by sending the ENT-C to face it's destiny and be recorded in history.

 

[M'Sharak]

I'm going to start referring the Hobus Star explosion as an UberNova. That way we don't have to get hung up on the supernova thing. Why did it threaten the entire galaxy? Because it was an UBERNOVA! Way worse than a supernova.

It's not an ordinary supernova, and clearly neither is it a hypernova, so I've just been calling it a SuperDuperNova all along, and otherwise not worrying about it overmuch.

 

[Romulus Prime]

Thanks for that takedown of VOY: Relativity, Romulus Prime. I have been saying the same damn thing for years. The writers of VOY thought they were being clever when they added that nod to First Contact by Seven of Nine's admission. It's bogus. The Federation only owes the Borg their advancement it weapons ans ships since their introduction in TNG: Q Who showed how outclassed the Galaxy class ship was.

Seven Of Nine states that the events of First Contact were predestination/casualty loop, where the prevention of events acutually causes them to happen. If you think about it 7 of 9's admission makes no sense. The Borg travel back in time and succeed in conquering Earth, FROM A 24th CENTURY POV. The Enterprise-E was built in the 24th Century by the Federation. So how can it possibly exist in a future where the Federation never happend? The Borg changed history, the ENT-E trapped in the temporal wake (displaced in time which is how they weren't affected) followed the Borg back and made sure history would happen similar to they way it was recorded by the 24th century.

That's not a casualty loop. The loop can't be the Borg travel back in time and succeed in their goals in the 21st century (which the ENT-E crew and we the audience saw from a 24th century pov), and that the Borg would fail in the 21st century and not assimilate Earth. And yet somehow 7 of 9 knows the realities of both of these futures? BS. VOY writers tried to be clever and failed at it.

If anything First Contact shows us string theory time travel. Linear time travel that affects what the future was and negates it making a new future. Star Trek 09 is chaos theory or rather butterfly effect time travel. Changing events of established history which develops a universe vastly different from the one the travelers originated from. Under chaos theory the travelers timeline will continue to go on since butterfly effect is an alternate timeline of events. String theory First Contact was done under linear time travel so the future was in real jeopardy of being rewritten and extinguished.

NP - The theory of the Borg causing the creation of the Federation could only work if it ends up taking place in a new reality, i.e. the Borg's guest appearance in the 21st century makes a change to THAT reality, and NOT the original. I could accept this considering the appearance of Archer's "Enterprise" is vastly different from the Enterprise shown in the TMP mural to Ilia which is prior to the NCC-1701.


I do disagree with this, though...

Yesterday's Enterprise and Sela would be Chaos Theory/ Butterfly effect. Only difference is an act that should of happened didn't because of a hole in the universe, which Picard fixed by sending the ENT-C to face it's destiny and be recorded in history.

The reality in which the Klingon-Fed War takes place can NOT be erased, otherwise the Tasha Yar of that reality is erased. We know that she dies 2 years prior to the Tasha Yar who goes "back" in time with the 1701-C, thus it must continue to exist, otherwise there would never be a Tasha Yar who lived past the time she was killed by Armus, ergo there would be no Sela.

 

[thumbtack]

I've just been calling it a SuperDuperNova all along.

I think you've left out at least one Duper.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Then there is no way the crew could have possibly seen a Borgified 24th century Earth since they were destined to prevent it. Way to go, Voyager!

Nope, re-read:

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to
prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

They called it the Pogo Paradox, NOT a Predestination Paradox. The loop includes the first set of changes made to alter history. Something similar happens in "Yesteryear"

Want an additional reference for why their techno-BS convo doesn't add up? Try Yesterday's Enterprise where a reality consisting of a Klingon-Federation War MUST continue to exist in order for an alternate 24th century Tasha Yar to exist anywhere past the time she actually dies in Season 1 - an existence which results in the creation of Sela.

That makes no sense. Tasha from the YE timeline appeared at Narendra III in the prime universe. She had Sela. Timelines exist simultaneously, it's not one then the other, cause and effect are things we only percieve because of our limitations. Just ask the wormhole aliens. Or doesn't DS9 count, either?

It's practically the same damn thing, despite the silly explanation from Voyager. Thanks for posting it though - made me snicker.

I love it when fans say, "that bit of Trek doesn't count, only *I* know the truth!"
It's FICTION, rewritten by a lot of authors over 50 years, all of whom had different ideas. You can't say you know the true answer when you're deliberately ignoring the bits you dont like. That's just silly and makes for completely pointless arguments.