The Great Romulan Evacuation

[F. King Daniel]

So a "Temporal Wake" explains how they were able to see a future which would never exist in the same timeline.




There is no logic to that at all. Let's put aside the technobable and (again) take it for what it is -


1. The crew is following the Borg into the past.
2. The crew can see that the Earth is Borgified.
3. The crew are at no point NOT traveling with the Borg into the past while this occurs.

3 is wrong. you're ignoring what's said, substituting your own explanation, then complainig because THAT doesn't hold up.

OK, now explain how they can see an event which they prevent?

If you refuse to accept part of the story (the temporal wake), OF COURSE the rest won't add up. It was put there specifically to excuse that.

If they are traveling with those who changed their present, how can the 24th century Earth be Borgified?

Explain how the Earth had time to be Borgified when there is no interval between when the Enterprise begins to follow them into the past and when the Borg arrive?

It had 400 years to be Borgified. They were unopposed until the Enterprise went through the portal.

The Pogo Paradox is BS. The only way there can be a 24th century Borgified Earth at any point is if the Enterprise crew fail to stop the Borg in the 21st century.

They don't.

That future cannot exist in the same timeline/time-space.

If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.








__________________one more time_________________







If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.



That Borgified Earth can only exist in an alternate reality in which the Enterprise-E crew either fails to follow the Borg into the past, or fails to stop them in the past.

No, it's where they never went into the past. They hadn't gone through the anomaly yet, only the Borg had. They were stil protected by the temporal wake.

And if I recall correctly, a few seconds after both ships leave the 24th century, that "assimilated" Earth is still floating around.

It's destined to happen if the crew fails.

They don't.

But an assimilated Earth exists.

For one second or less before they cut to the next scene. I think you're taking VFX a little too seriously.

So at some point both we and they see an alternate reality in which they failed. It's a reality which continues to exist after both parties leave the 24th century.

The Enterprise crew succeeds, thus that future cannot and will never happen in the SAME time and space...EVER. Sorry, it just can't. The assimilated Earth can only exist in an alternate reality, one which they would have to intersect with during the pursuit in order to see a result of an inevitable failure.

In Trek, timelines can merge, be overwritten etc.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Now I realize that there are many aspects of Trek "science" that are based on the near impossible, or the completely impossible. I've been a fan since 1975, so it's no surprise to me. What were talking about (at this point) is time travel and aspects of what can or can not change.

That's real world shit being ---->USED<---- in a story...


...and it's THAT aspect which is the subject we're talking about now. Personally, I like the fact that people are discussing it AND challenging what I'm saying - helps me reaffirm my beliefs in what does and does not make sense regarding the REAL WORLD theories of time travel.

Time travel is nothing but theory, and that's all it likely ever will be. And there's more than one theory about how it might work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

Unfortunately, Trek had tried to have it's cake and eat it too. Almost every kind has come up, in one fictionalized form or another.

Watching the Clock ties every Trek time travel together brilliantly. It makes it all seem like it works under a consistant and very complicated set of rules based on real life theories (see the author's extensive notes HERE for an idea just how in-depth it goes). I think you'd find it a fascinating read - if you're willing to keep an open mind.

 

[Romulus Prime]

If you refuse to accept part of the story (the temporal wake), OF COURSE the rest won't add up. It was put there specifically to excuse that.

....


Time travel is nothing but theory, and that's all it likely ever will be. And there's more than one theory about how it might work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

Unfortunately, Trek had tried to have it's cake and eat it too. Almost every kind has come up, in one fictionalized form or another.

Watching the Clock ties every Trek time travel together brilliantly. It makes it all seem like it works under a consistant and very complicated set of rules based on real life theories (see the author's extensive notes HERE for an idea just how in-depth it goes). I think you'd find it a fascinating read...

Since there's some measure of agreement here, I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the links.

 

[Romulus Prime]

If you're looking for a place where people pretend that real life doesn't apply so much to what they're a fans of, chances are you'll only find that kind of world on a Marijuana Fans message board.

That will be enough of that. Drop the personal jabs, please.

Considering you quoted this part specifically, if you thought I was suggesting he was on something, I wasn't. The sentences following it clarify my point/stance. I guess the implication of not my knowing the difference between "Sci-Fi adventure" and, quote, "Nova or the Discovery Channel" kind of ruffled my feathers. I'll certainly keep this in mind, though, since I've also gotten my share of "personal jabs" from posters in other sections of this board.

 

[Set Harth]

If you look back at the thread posts, you'll realize that's exactly what I've been saying.

No, you've been saying the differences in the timeline predate Nero's arrival in 2233, as can be seen by looking back at the thread posts. It would have been utterly pointless if you were just saying things played out differently in the new timeline. Anyone who watched the film could see that quite clearly. You might as well tell us the letters in the alphabet or something.

 

[Romulus Prime]

If you look back at the thread posts, you'll realize that's exactly what I've been saying.

...you've been saying there are some differences in the timeline which predate Nero's arrival in 2233, as can be seen by looking back at the thread posts.

FIXED.

And the point remains the same - different reality = things won't always copy what happens in another.


Good day.

 

[Set Harth]

If you look back at the thread posts, you'll realize that's exactly what I've been saying.

...you've been saying there are some differences in the timeline which predate Nero's arrival in 2233, as can be seen by looking back at the thread posts.

FIXED.

And the point remains the same - different reality = things won't always copy what happens in another.

The point is not the same.

That the Abramsverse won't copy what happened in the original timeline is, as I said, patently obvious ( and thus not very useful as a point ). This accords with the intent of the creators of the film.

Your more significant contention - that there were preexisting differences in the Abramsverse before 2233 - is not only unnecessary to support the idea that the Abramsverse won't copy the Prime timeline, but also goes against the intent of the creators of the film.

 

[Mars]

...you've been saying there are some differences in the timeline which predate Nero's arrival in 2233, as can be seen by looking back at the thread posts.

FIXED.

And the point remains the same - different reality = things won't always copy what happens in another.

The point is not the same.

That the Abramsverse won't copy what happened in the original timeline is, as I said, patently obvious ( and thus not very useful as a point ). This accords with the intent of the creators of the film.

Your more significant contention - that there were preexisting differences in the Abramsverse before 2233 - is not only unnecessary to support the idea that the Abramsverse won't copy the Prime timeline, but also goes against the intent of the creators of the film.

A Star is a little difficult to do different. For instance the butterfly effect won't prevent our Sun from expanding into a red giant 5 billion years from now. The butterfly effect won't prevent a larger star from running out of fuel and then going supernova, the thing that might prevent that from happening would be intelligent intervention, but if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

 

[Therin of Andor]

if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

Do we know for sure that the Hobus star exploded naturally?

 

[Set Harth]

if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

When I say that the Abramsverse won't copy what happened in the Prime timeline, I mean some things will turn out differently. But that does not mean that everything will turn out differently.

 

[Mars]

if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

When I say that the Abramsverse won't copy what happened in the Prime timeline, I mean some things will turn out differently. But that does not mean that everything will turn out differently.

Of course not, the most predictable things will likely happen. For instance we can predict where the planets will be in the Solar System centuries from now, because we know where they are now and where they are headed and how fast, very little of what we do now will change that. Astronomical phenomena will likely not change because of human actions, but nations will rise and fall because of them.

 

[Mars]

if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

Do we know for sure that the Hobus star exploded naturally?

Supernovas occur because stars run out of fuel, and example of an artificial supernova is that which occurred in Star Trek Generations using the trilithium device. It didn't occur to Nero to use Trilithium.

 

[RoJoHen]

if people do nothing that star will explode on schedule.

Do we know for sure that the Hobus star exploded naturally?

Supernovas occur because stars run out of fuel, and example of an artificial supernova is that which occurred in Star Trek Generations using the trilithium device. It didn't occur to Nero to use Trilithium.

How does that answer the question?

 

[Mars]

Do we know for sure that the Hobus star exploded naturally?

Supernovas occur because stars run out of fuel, and example of an artificial supernova is that which occurred in Star Trek Generations using the trilithium device. It didn't occur to Nero to use Trilithium.

How does that answer the question?

I'm sure if a trilithium device was used it would have been mentioned in the movie.

 

[RoJoHen]

Since the reason for the Hobus explosion is not relevant to the story, no, it wouldn't have been mentioned. It also doesn't need to have been a trilithium device.

Question: How do we know the Hobus star exploded naturally?
Answer: We don't.

 

[Mars]

Since the reason for the Hobus explosion is not relevant to the story, no, it wouldn't have been mentioned. It also doesn't need to have been a trilithium device.

Question: How do we know the Hobus star exploded naturally?
Answer: We don't.

Well since trilithium has been established, then one could conclude that someone is going around blowing up stars with trilithium, and if they did it to the Hobus star, then he might strike again, it is not just the star than needs to be stopped, but the being that is responsible for blowing up stars.

 

[Photoman15]

I don't believe Nero had the red matter until he captured Spock, and he only got Spock recently before he imploded Vulcan into a black hole, if he imploded a star, that would have attracted the attention of Star Fleet and would have ruined his surprise when he attacked Vulcan.

Actually, we have the timeline of these things down pat, thanks to meticulous Starfleet bookkeeping! Kirk and Chekov give us the exact hours at which various things took place.

Chekov's PA: "At twenty-two hundred hours, telemetry detected at an anomaly in the neutral zone. What appeared to be a lightning storm in space." (That's Spock arriving.)

Kirk's attempt to convince Pike: "at twenty-three hundred hours last night, there was an attack. Forty-seven Klingon warbirds destroyed by a Romulan, Sir." (That's Nero having had red matter for one hour. Also note "last night", meaning Vulcan is dying some time after San Francisco dawn, just as the shuttle scenes suggested, but before the next San Francisco dawn.)

There's no indication that Nero destroyed the 47 Klingon vessels with Red Matter. Just the weapons he had on the Narada. Later dialog suggests that when the extract the red matter for Vulcan it is the first time.

 

[Photoman15]

So a "Temporal Wake" explains how they were able to see a future which would never exist in the same timeline.




There is no logic to that at all. Let's put aside the technobable and (again) take it for what it is -


1. The crew is following the Borg into the past.
2. The crew can see that the Earth is Borgified.
3. The crew are at no point NOT traveling with the Borg into the past while this occurs.


OK, now explain how they can see an event which they prevent?

If they are traveling with those who changed their present, how can the 24th century Earth be Borgified?

Explain how the Earth had time to be Borgified when there is no interval between when the Enterprise begins to follow them into the past and when the Borg arrive?


The Pogo Paradox is BS. The only way there can be a 24th century Borgified Earth at any point is if the Enterprise crew fail to stop the Borg in the 21st century.

They don't.

That future cannot exist in the same timeline/time-space.

If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.








__________________one more time_________________







If you maintain it's the same reality, then a 24th century Borgified Earth can never happen.



That Borgified Earth can only exist in an alternate reality in which the Enterprise-E crew either fails to follow the Borg into the past, or fails to stop them in the past. And if I recall correctly, a few seconds after both ships leave the 24th century, that "assimilated" Earth is still floating around.

It's destined to happen if the crew fails.

They don't.

But an assimilated Earth exists.

So at some point both we and they see an alternate reality in which they failed. It's a reality which continues to exist after both parties leave the 24th century.

The Enterprise crew succeeds, thus that future cannot and will never happen in the SAME time and space...EVER. Sorry, it just can't. The assimilated Earth can only exist in an alternate reality, one which they would have to intersect with during the pursuit in order to see a result of an inevitable failure.

Enterprise-E is shielded from the timeline changes because they are in the Temporal Wake. They can scan outside the wake and that's how they saw the Borgified Earth.
At that point:
1. The Borg sphere had already past the event horizon and was in the past. E-E was still in the 24th century.
2. When E-E actually passed the threshold and was in the past, any changes to the future were irrelevant to them.

The reason why the Borg could change the past so the E-E can see it (in the 24c) was that until the E-E committed to the time travel, something could have happened.

Let's use a Quantum Leap example. In the leap where Al & Sam switched places, Sam was trapped in the Imaging Chamber because QL thought there was an explosion with radioactive fallout (or whatever). Sam came up with the idea to mail Gushie a letter to be delivered on the date this happened and let him know to override the lock. Just because Sam thought it, it didn't happen right then. Not until the letter was committed (put in the mailbox) to it's travel was Gushie able to get in 1999. Then he opened the door. Same thing here, when the E-E committed (went into the past in this case), the 24c was (destined to be) returned to normal.

 

[Photoman15]

And by the way, I would like to believe that the Supernova either fractured or hit a fracture in subspace and that's one reason it was different from all the other supernovas in the playpen.

 

[Mars]

And by the way, I would like to believe that the Supernova either fractured or hit a fracture in subspace and that's one reason it was different from all the other supernovas in the playpen.

You can always pull out subspace to explain everything. Though I really don't think it was necessary for the supernova to threaten the entire Galaxy, I thought that was a bad line they put in Spock's mouth. It should have been Spock was just doing a good deed for the Romulans and he wasn't able to pull it off in time to save Romulus, that is all the plot needed.