*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

[belle paris]

^ Me, too, actually. I'm a happily married woman (22 years this summer!) and I have a number of male friends that I still do things with - with or without my husband there. I can't say I've ever gone on a moonlight sail with a male friend - for one thing, I've never gone on a moonlight sail, period - but I've done other things by moonlight. That's the natural time to eat dinner, after all.

But do you hold their hands, stroke their chest, go on exclusive trips together?
Tell them you can't imagine your life without them?

 

[JustKate]

That I can't imagine my life without them? Sure. They're my friends, you know - that means they're important to me. And I'm not stuck thousands of light years away from home, totally reliant on those friends, either.

The physical stuff...probably not, but it would depend on the context. I've hugged plenty of male friends, that's for sure.

"Exclusive trips"? I actually am trying to arrange an "exclusive trip" with a buddy of mine - I yearn to see spring training for our mutual favorite baseball team, and my husband doesn't really care about baseball - he watches it only to please me (and he can't get away from work very well during spring training anyway). We haven't managed it yet, but I hope my dear friend Larry and I do so sometime in the next couple of years. We're just going to watch baseball and eat hotdogs, though - romance is not on the agenda.

Look, I am not one of those who says there was no chemistry between Chakotay and Janeway. Of course there was. I just don't think there was an actual romance, and the reason is that the characters themselves decided it would be better for the ship if there wasn't. I think there was a deep friendship with elements of romance that the characters kept under control.

And I think that if there was a real, out-and-out romance, the writers would have shown it to us. And they didn't, did they? Just hints.

But I've gone into all this before, in this very thread, and there's no need to go into it again. You guys should be able to enjoy your J/C shipping without too much naysaying. But when you imply that a man and a woman can't go sailing without romancing at the same time...well, you're wrong. That's all I'm saying.

If you want to look for clues of a real romance, kept hidden for whatever reason, you can certainly find them. But if you want to see a deep friendship tinged with romance...well, you can find that too. At least I can. And that's all I'm saying.

 

[belle paris]

But if you want to see a deep friendship tinged with romance...well, you can find that too. At least I can. And that's all I'm saying.

No problem. I can totally understand that. When I was a teenager, the single father I babysat for and I were totally attracted to each other but....we stayed just close friends until a more appropriate time three years later.

 

[Tachyon]

That is a cute moment, Belle. And yes - I have a male friends, and I wouldn't invite them on moonlight sailings and such. Lol.

Damn, silly me. I invite male friends to dinner all the time. I even invite them to a fancy French restaurant known as the most romantic in LA. And I pay, too.

I think dinner is one thing and a romantic moonlight sailing with champange alone in a private setting is another.

Sure - I would do that too if I wanted to hint that I was ready for more than just a platonic friendship.

 

[JustKate]

What if you just wanted to go sailing with somebody? Who else was she gonna ask? Harry?

Kidding.

Edit: Well, sort of kidding. What I was trying to get at with my little joke above is, what if you just really liked sailing and champagne (as Teya mentions below)? Romance is in the intent, not the action. Champagne is no more romantic than beer unless you think champagne is more romantic than beer - or, more pertinently, unless J and C think it's more romantic than beer. It's all mental.

 

[belle paris]

Well, in Isabo's Shirt, they did kiss and have a discussion about it. Very adult of them.

 

[teya]

But do you hold their hands, stroke their chest, go on exclusive trips together?
Tell them you can't imagine your life without them?

One of those guy friends was my *rock* during the last 6 months of my soulmate's life and in the time after his death. He was there for me no matter what.

Do I tell him I can't imagine my life without him? You betcha.

 

[teya]

That is a cute moment, Belle. And yes - I have a male friends, and I wouldn't invite them on moonlight sailings and such. Lol.

Damn, silly me. I invite male friends to dinner all the time. I even invite them to a fancy French restaurant known as the most romantic in LA. And I pay, too.

I think dinner is one thing and a romantic moonlight sailing with champange alone in a private setting is another.

Sure - I would do that too if I wanted to hint that I was ready for more than just a platonic friendship.

I don't sail, but I have certainly been for moonlight swims and surfing, complete with Champagne. It's my favorite beverage. I have Champagne for Sunday brunch.

 

[Tachyon]

Right.

Well, I guess I avoid more giving my platonic friends false signals, so I wouldn't put myslef is certain kind of situations with my male friends, where there's room for mistunderstanding. Especially if I sense that the other is somewhat interested, when I am not.

And Chakotay was most definitely interested about Janeway in that way.

 

[teya]

Right.

Yes, right.

Sorry if my response didn't suit you.

Well, I guess I avoid more giving my platonic friends false signals, so I wouldn't put myslef is certain kind of situations with my male friends, where there's room for mistunderstanding. Especially if I sense that the other is somewhat interested, when I am not.

Nice of you to assume that I'm giving false signals.

Especially given that one example I used was the man who supported me when my soulmate was terminally ill and after his death.

I talk to my friends. I learned that living with someone for over 10 years who had a chronic, life-threatening illness. Tis better to speak rather than assume. Tis better to remember that any moment could be your last and make sure the people around you know how you feel, so that you don't have regrets about what you should've said.

Of course, I value *all* friendships--even the platonic ones--like the gifts they are.

 

[belle paris]

I don't think Tachyon meant that way. Just that if a single lady invites a man (that she knows was/is attracted to her) out for a private time, the man could get a false signal, which is what happened in "Isabo's Shirt".

 

[joyofvgr]

I don't think Tachyon meant that way. Just that if a single lady invites a man (that she knows was/is attracted to her) out for a private time, the man could get a false signal, which is what happened in "Isabo's Shirt".

I've never read "Isabo's Shirt" but I can see both sides here. Janeway and Chakotay were committed to keeping their relationship platonic and I do believe they could have shared a moonlight sail and champagne platonically. However, since Janeway prefaced her invitation with having beating death that day and deserving a celebration, then specifying a moolight sail and champagne, you get the idea that she might be planning an exception for just one night. It could really go either way, imo.

 

[teya]

I don't think Tachyon meant that way. Just that if a single lady invites a man (that she knows was/is attracted to her) out for a private time, the man could get a false signal, which is what happened in "Isabo's Shirt".

I've never read "Isabo's Shirt" but I can see both sides here. Janeway and Chakotay were committed to keeping their relationship platonic and I do believe they could have shared a moonlight sail and champagne platonically. However, since Janeway prefaced her invitation with having beating death that day and deserving a celebration, then specifying a moolight sail and champagne, you get the idea that she might be planning an exception for just one night. It could really go either way, imo.

I've never read "Isabo's Shirt" either.

But I completely agree--it can go either way.

We all bring what we've experienced in real life to the way we view fiction. I'm just pointing out that candlelit dinners for two, Champagne, and nighttime adventures do not necessarily mean romance.

 

[JustKate]

Right.

Well, I guess I avoid more giving my platonic friends false signals, so I wouldn't put myslef is certain kind of situations with my male friends, where there's room for mistunderstanding. Especially if I sense that the other is somewhat interested, when I am not.

And Chakotay was most definitely interested about Janeway in that way.

So if this is how you interpret this scene - and yes, it's definitely one valid way to interpret it, though not the only way - you've got two choices here. Either J is involved with C or is planning to become so and none of us get to see it. Or she's leading him on?

Now, you know she wouldn't do that. So do I. And my feeling, prosaic though it must seem to all you nice J/C shippers, is that if TPTB wanted us to cope with/enjoy/whatever the idea of J and C in a romance...well, that's what they would have given us. That all they gave us was hints means to me that that's all there was - a friendship with a hint of romance.

To you, it means...that you get to enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, something was going on with the characters off camera? Or...? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or snotty here, I swear, I'm just still trying to come to grips with this whole shipper scene.

I don't think Tachyon meant that way. Just that if a single lady invites a man (that she knows was/is attracted to her) out for a private time, the man could get a false signal, which is what happened in "Isabo's Shirt".

I've never read "Isabo's Shirt" but I can see both sides here. Janeway and Chakotay were committed to keeping their relationship platonic and I do believe they could have shared a moonlight sail and champagne platonically. However, since Janeway prefaced her invitation with having beating death that day and deserving a celebration, then specifying a moolight sail and champagne, you get the idea that she might be planning an exception for just one night. It could really go either way, imo.

I've never read "Isabo's Shirt" either.

But I completely agree--it can go either way.

We all bring what we've experienced in real life to the way we view fiction. I'm just pointing out that candlelit dinners for two, Champagne, and nighttime adventures do not necessarily mean romance.

In life? Oh, yes, it could definitely go either way. And in fiction, too. But...it really can go either way.

 

[Tachyon]

Right.

Yes, right.

Sorry if my response didn't suit you.

Well, I guess I avoid more giving my platonic friends false signals, so I wouldn't put myslef is certain kind of situations with my male friends, where there's room for mistunderstanding. Especially if I sense that the other is somewhat interested, when I am not.

Nice of you to assume that I'm giving false signals.

Especially given that one example I used was the man who supported me when my soulmate was terminally ill and after his death.

I talk to my friends. I learned that living with someone for over 10 years who had a chronic, life-threatening illness. Tis better to speak rather than assume. Tis better to remember that any moment could be your last and make sure the people around you know how you feel, so that you don't have regrets about what you should've said.

Of course, I value *all* friendships--even the platonic ones--like the gifts they are.

WHAT...?

 

[Tachyon]

So if this is how you interpret this scene - and yes, it's definitely one valid way to interpret it, though not the only way - you've got two choices here.

That is the way I interpret it. At least you got me right.

And Belle too. *hugs*

 

[teya]

Right.

Yes, right.

Sorry if my response didn't suit you.

Well, I guess I avoid more giving my platonic friends false signals, so I wouldn't put myslef is certain kind of situations with my male friends, where there's room for mistunderstanding. Especially if I sense that the other is somewhat interested, when I am not.

Nice of you to assume that I'm giving false signals.

Especially given that one example I used was the man who supported me when my soulmate was terminally ill and after his death.

I talk to my friends. I learned that living with someone for over 10 years who had a chronic, life-threatening illness. Tis better to speak rather than assume. Tis better to remember that any moment could be your last and make sure the people around you know how you feel, so that you don't have regrets about what you should've said.

Of course, I value *all* friendships--even the platonic ones--like the gifts they are.

WHAT...?

I took your reply as dismissive--that my interpretations of situations were wrong, because they were contrary to yours.

If that was not your intent, my apologies.

I was simply trying to show that there are different ways of approaching male-female friendships.

 

[JustKate]

So if this is how you interpret this scene - and yes, it's definitely one valid way to interpret it, though not the only way - you've got two choices here.

That is the way I interpret it. At least you got me right.

OK, well, at least I'm learnin'. Not agreein' but learnin'.

 

[kimc]

I don't sail, but I have certainly been for moonlight swims and surfing, complete with Champagne. It's my favorite beverage. I have Champagne for Sunday brunch.

Well I sail and have even gotten up to see the sunrise with a male friend I was sailing with. If I wanted it to be romantic though I would have put my contacts in and grabbed a bottle of champagne.

I can see how a moonlight sail can be read either way.

 

[Tachyon]

Here's my latest J/C fiddle. Chakotay's pouting has made people giggle elsewhere so maybe it'll bring at least a faint smile on some of the faces here as well. Tee hee.