*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*
- Thread starter Tachyon
- Start date
Me, too. I'm glad to hear, actually, that the relationship has been written out of the novels. I haven't read any of the Voyager novels written after the return to the Alpha Quadrant - I don't read many Trek novels, period - but I'm delighted to hear that is something I won't have to deal with when I do read some, which is bound to happen sooner or later.
(I usually end up reading Trek novels when I'm stuck in a strange city somewhere with nothing to read, because you can usually find some Trek at airport book stores - hence my confidence that sooner or later, I will end up reading some.)
Nothing against Seven as a character, but the relationship was ill conceived, IMO. Well, heck, it was really almost "dictated" rather than "conceived," wasn't it? Not a lot of thought or careful writing went into it.
(I usually end up reading Trek novels when I'm stuck in a strange city somewhere with nothing to read, because you can usually find some Trek at airport book stores - hence my confidence that sooner or later, I will end up reading some.)
Nothing against Seven as a character, but the relationship was ill conceived, IMO. Well, heck, it was really almost "dictated" rather than "conceived," wasn't it? Not a lot of thought or careful writing went into it.
I like Seven too. But C/7 - ugh. It didn't do justice to Seven or Chakotay. I classify the relationship in the same category with the lizard babies. Both of them were brain farts from the writers.
And same can be said about Troi/Worf. For real. What the heck was that?
And same can be said about Troi/Worf. For real. What the heck was that?
I found Troi/Worf a lot more compelling than C/7, though just as unlikely - mostly because the writers worked on it over quite a long period of time, which is a thing they don't usually bother to do, not just in Trek but in any TV show. But then again, I have a real problem with those on-again-off-again romances that TV writers are so enamored of, such as the whole Riker/Troi thing, so perhaps I liked Troi/Worf just because it made a change from Riker and Troi being each other's one true love in one episode but then in love with somebody else just a few episodes later but then going back being each other's one true love, etc.
Which also means that I also hated it when they toyed with Picard/Crusher being other's one true love in one episode but then in love with somebody else just a few episodes later, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know writers of all TV genres do it all the time. That's the problem right there.
What I didn't like about Troi/Worf was that they never did give us an episode, or short arc of episodes, that told us, "Ah, that is why they finally got together." And I simply loathed it when they just dropped it as soon as it became inconvenient, which was when Worf went to DS9. I hate it when they do that. Hate hate hate hate.
I guess you could say I am torn.
Which also means that I also hated it when they toyed with Picard/Crusher being other's one true love in one episode but then in love with somebody else just a few episodes later, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know writers of all TV genres do it all the time. That's the problem right there.
What I didn't like about Troi/Worf was that they never did give us an episode, or short arc of episodes, that told us, "Ah, that is why they finally got together." And I simply loathed it when they just dropped it as soon as it became inconvenient, which was when Worf went to DS9. I hate it when they do that. Hate hate hate hate.
I guess you could say I am torn.
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Well said on both counts there.
That I thought was more natural. There was the 'bonding' when Worf thought he was going to die and convinced Deanna to take Alexander, and then the hints in 'Parallels.' I don't know, it felt more natural somehow to me.
^ I think that, really, was part of the appeal for me - that it was kind of unlikely, and yet that it was given (as Praetor describes) some sort of context. I mean, Worf should get the girl sometimes, dang it, and he wasn't given many opportunities.
But then, perhaps I should mention that I'm not a major Riker fan. I just like the idea of him not having everything his own way!
But then, perhaps I should mention that I'm not a major Riker fan. I just like the idea of him not having everything his own way!
That's it for me, too. I was happier when he got Jadzia.
But then, perhaps I should mention that I'm not a major Riker fan. I just like the idea of him not having everything his own way!
To be fair, Deanna made him wait about ten more years and probably kept him chained to that executive officer's chair seven or eight years more than he probably would have otherwise. I thought you might enjoy that notion.
Wof / Troi didn't bother me either. Mostly because it seemed to be set up as early as Season 5 - and I've read interviews with the writers who discussed that set up. But I'm also not broken up about them not staying a couple; they don't feel like a lasting couple, IMO, but that doesn't mean they didn't have things in common, or that they weren't attracted to one another. For me, I guess, it was more interesting to see them explore the possibility of them as a couple, than to actually have them end up together. I thought the same thing of Ezri / Worf during the final arc on DS9. It was more satisfying to see them explore their relationship, and decide that it was best to remain friends, than it would have been to ignore it. I only wish there had been some on-screen closure to the Worf / Deanna thing - because PD's 'Triangle' book is the only one of his that I've loathed.
I was happier when he got Jadzia.
Ditto that. A perfect match.
But then, perhaps I should mention that I'm not a major Riker fan. I just like the idea of him not having everything his own way!
I'm not a huge Riker fan either. I can't explain it, because I like Riker in the novels, and I like Jonathan Frakes, but Riker on screen creeps me out. Some of my friends feel the same way. It's hard to describe. But I often find him annoying. I like him just fine in the Titan novels, and I was glad when he did finally end up with Troi.
Well, I don't want to derail the J/C thread with an entirely Riker-related post (at least the other posts have involved relationships, and this is a relationship thread, albeit the J/C relationship thread), but Riker is one of my least favorite Trek characters - certainly among the main characters. And he became so almost from the moment we first saw him. Annoying, yes, and poorly written, and poorly conceived (almost a caricature), and I don't think he was very well acted, either. Plus, I find macho-man lady killers boring anyway. But lots of other people just love him, which just goes to show that you can't please everybody.
Yes, the writers really should have given us something, rather than pretending that it never happened. I could have missed it, but I don't recall so much as a single reference once Worf came to DS9. That's just not right.
So to drag myself back on topic...maybe those who regret that the writers of this Trek show or that one didn't get particular characters together are lucky they didn't. It wasn't something they tended to do well, although there are exceptions here and there. Surely there must be one besides the O'Briens...
Neogothboy said:
Yes, the writers really should have given us something, rather than pretending that it never happened. I could have missed it, but I don't recall so much as a single reference once Worf came to DS9. That's just not right.
So to drag myself back on topic...maybe those who regret that the writers of this Trek show or that one didn't get particular characters together are lucky they didn't. It wasn't something they tended to do well, although there are exceptions here and there. Surely there must be one besides the O'Briens...
I am surprised to say the least. I guess I always assumed that everyone loved Riker. I guess my assumption was based on few Riker/Chakotay comparisons I have seen commented where Riker is almost always considered way better. But I guess discussions/comparisons like that might have something to do with the preferences of TNG/VOY in general.
But there were some silmilar aspects in the Imzadi and J/C, I think. In both cases the romantic involvement was kind of left in the air without resolving it. Imzadi got over that, though.
But there were some silmilar aspects in the Imzadi and J/C, I think. In both cases the romantic involvement was kind of left in the air without resolving it. Imzadi got over that, though.
Actually, my favorite Trek couple is Kira / Odo. I thought they were beautifully handled. I know there are certain links you can post in a message and others that you can't - I'm not clear on the rules about that - but there's this really great review by Michelle Erica Green for the DS9 episode Chimera that covers their entire relationship beautifully - except for how the relationship is handled in the final 11 episode (which is perfection). If you google Michelle Erica Green Chimera you'll find it. It says more than I could here.
If Janeway / Chakotay could have been handled like that, it would have been one of the best love stories ever.
I am surprised to say the least. I guess I always assumed that everyone loved Riker. I guess my assumption was based on few Riker/Chakotay comparisons I have seen commented where Riker is almost always considered way better. But I guess discussions/comparisons like that might have something to do with the preferences of TNG/VOY in general.
Nope, not in my case. I like most of the Trek shows for different reasons, and I don't like to pick a favorite, but if I had to, it would probably be TNG. I liked it in spite of Riker, not because of him. He was just the price I had to pay to watch the rest of the show, but to this day, I usually avoid Riker-centric episodes.
And I completely disagree that Riker was "way better" than Chakotay. In fact, I don't get that at all. Jonathan Frakes seems like a very nice guy, and Riker was featured in some excellent episodes, but as an actor, he is far more "wooden" than Robert Beltran ever was.
^You surprise me again! I guess it has something to do with the fact that I have seen the word "wooden" describing Chakotay only in Trek-related discussions. Like they say - you learn something new everyday. 
I have nothing against the character (Riker). He's not my fav, but not on the bottom of the list either. He just is.
I have nothing against the character (Riker). He's not my fav, but not on the bottom of the list either. He just is.
^ I had no idea anybody could possibly have any problem with Robert Beltran's acting until I started visiting Trek bulletin boards after the show was over. It just seemed so obvious to me that the problem was the way the character was written, not the way it was acted...but apparently that wasn't nearly as "obvious" to everybody.
And I actually think part of the problem with Riker was the way he was written, too - he was written as a macho-man lady killer, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that that's what he turned out to be. A less stereotypical first officer would have been much more to my liking - and in fact that's one of the things I liked about Chakotay and Dax (I think I'm remembering correctly that she was first officer, right? haven't had a chance to see that show in ages) - they weren't turned out from some "dashing Starfleet officer" mold.
Wellllllll, as the regulars to this thread know (whether they like it or not ), I am not a fan of J/Cness for many reasons, one of those being that I am not in favor of captains and first officers getting involved with members of their crew. Any captain or any first officer. I do agree that it would have been pretty cool if they could have found a way to end the show with these two at least headed that way. It's a cliche but it's nonetheless true: They would have made a lovely couple! And apparently they have in lots of fanfic.
And I actually think part of the problem with Riker was the way he was written, too - he was written as a macho-man lady killer, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that that's what he turned out to be. A less stereotypical first officer would have been much more to my liking - and in fact that's one of the things I liked about Chakotay and Dax (I think I'm remembering correctly that she was first officer, right? haven't had a chance to see that show in ages) - they weren't turned out from some "dashing Starfleet officer" mold.
Neogothboy said:If Janeway / Chakotay could have been handled like that, it would have been one of the best love stories ever.
Wellllllll, as the regulars to this thread know (whether they like it or not
), I am not a fan of J/Cness for many reasons, one of those being that I am not in favor of captains and first officers getting involved with members of their crew. Any captain or any first officer. I do agree that it would have been pretty cool if they could have found a way to end the show with these two at least headed that way. It's a cliche but it's nonetheless true: They would have made a lovely couple! And apparently they have in lots of fanfic.
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Ain't that the truth! I never ever considered that Beltran was a bad actor or "wooden", until I found my way on some Trek boards where it was almost "common knowledge" in a way.
Tachyon said:
Exactly! I don't want to sound like a paranoid Voyager fan here because I'm not one (as far as I know....
), but I think it's "common knowledge" in the same way that it's "common knowledge" that Voyager is an awful show (and maybe even in the same way that it's common knowledge that only geeks who live in their parents' basement like scifi). Well, you know, Voyager is a good show - it had its good moments and its bad moments, but jeez, there are infinitely lousier shows on TV this very moment - and he is a perfectly fine actor. But for some people, it's not enough that they didn't care for the show. No, if they didn't care for it, there must be something horribly wrong with it, and therefore with most of the actors associated with it. For a suprising number of people (at least it surprises me), including some who seem to barely remember the show, this has become some sort of received truth or something.There are people who simply relish finding things wrong with Voyager or some another Trek show they don't like. It sounds like a very odd and unsatisfying hobby to me. Go out and get some fresh air or take up rollerblading or something.
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Definitely, there are lousier shows on TV now--just as there were then.
But, isn't this all a matter of taste? I'm not a Voyager basher, yet I really am not all that impressed with Beltran's work--both on Voyager and in other things. I would describe him as an uneven actor--sometimes he can impress, sometimes he falls painfully flat.
I do not consider myself a Voyager basher in any way--there are things I like and things I don't.
YMMV, and probably does.
