• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Great Chronological Run-Through

Where Sea Meets Sky

An older novel, but it fits the continuity well enough, with only the most minor of adjustments necessary. It's a good story to boot. The tale Pike tells is a fun one, an interesting voyage that seems rather fresh in terms of Enterprise missions and yet satisfyingly familiar in its highly deliberate resemblance to a sailing adventure. I like the transition between Pike's narrative and the commentary, and it genuinely feels like a conversation is taking place in a good pub. (Sorry, but The Captain's Table is a pub, not a bar :p). The dilemma is a good one, nicely complex, and the Titans are interesting; I find there's a lot to like here. Although if this book ever made it onto my humorous novel summary list, I don't know if I need say anything more than "Pike meets Nemo".

(I suppose it's also fun to get a sense of the 23rd Century from an Earth-bound era's perspective. Klingons and Vulcans and Saurians, oh my).

One point of interest is the description of Aronnia as a recent member of the Federation. Whether we should interpret this as full membership or some as yet undefined "associate" status, I'm not certain. The acceptance of Aronnia as a member, without any effort to investigate what's occurring out here (and no apparent desire to do so until Aronnia itself calls in Starfleet assistance), does have interesting implications for the way in which the Federation relates to prospective members in this era. As we'll soon see with cases such as Ardana, there are a number of worlds that seem to have been granted membership status, or affiliate status at least, with only cursory investigation, leading to political complications down the line when Federation representatives are dragged into local disputes that ideally should have come to attention during the initial admissions process. (This becomes particularly amusing when we'll see that later incidents such as the Huan/Falor affair will see the Federation itself admonish member worlds for doing precisely this - entering into the partnership without noting ongoing feuds and controversies that now become the Federation's responsibility. Planets by that point are expected to disclose such matters, and we can see why the Federation makes a big deal of that, given its own failing here). I imagine incidents such as this - and the upcoming revelation of what Ardana is up to - also fuel further the apparent trend we've seen onscreen to standardization and stiff oversight from Federal authorities; the taming of the Federation, and its transition from an ever-more sprawling alliance strung across the frontier (where the criteria for membership appear increasingly to be "have warp travel" and "ask") into a definite nation with a more intolerant and cautious approach to what its members are permitted to do, and who exactly can join. As ever, I'm building a sense of a civilization facing a general restructuring and a quiet crisis of identity, split largely between an ultra-liberal frontier and the sense that this should be reigned in, with an overall tighter and more definitive structure to the UFP. With some rather unreasonable positions on all sides.

The Titans, especially in being compared to whales, remind me naturally of those other genetically-engineered living ships, the Leviathans of Farscape (although those ones are sapient). Naturally, the question then becomes: what happens to these creatures, spanning multiple star systems as they do, in the coming centuries?

According to the acknowledgements, Phil Foglio drew the Titans during the panel in which these creatures were first conceived before later migrating to Trek. Elegant and finely crafted, I'm sure those sketches were. (Those who don't get the reference are lacking that certain Spark).

First Appearances of Things That Are Important:

The Captain's Table, which makes no sense and probably should break the setting in more ways than one, but which we allow because it's surprisingly effective.

Continuity

Rura Penthe, the Klingon version, which we may remember from Enterprise, is alluded to with Hompaq's reaction to Nemo mentioning the original.

Dabisch the Gallamite is again presented as a part of Pike's crew.

Class-K planets (described as marginally habitable, whatever that means) and Class-T planets (giant and gaseous) are mentioned, and these depictions fit well enough with the system introduced by the Star Charts, in which Mars is K-class and the T-class are gas "ultragiants". There's also mention of Class-U, absent from Star Charts, which here is an even rarer form of gaseous planet, essentially a variant on T.

The ongoing breakdown in Federation-Klingon relations is noted; they continue to deteriorate to a point where all-out war is considered likely. Although perhaps because Hompaq is from an era where relations have thawed, she also allows for a more intimate view of Klingon cultural norms and perspectives than we usually get in this era, at least in terms of what the Federation characters learn. I find her contributions particularly enjoyable.

Cap's comment that "Talos is no threat to anyone, but you could be, if you followed that line of thought" does acknowledge why realistically this place, The Captain's Table, makes no sense in-universe. We might have to assume that any and all concrete knowledge that isn't related to the place's existence or the personal catharsis achieved there disappears when one steps out of Faerie-land and back into their usual life. Or is at least strangely inaccessible. Cap is something like a Q, anything can be handwaved, which is both the problem and the solution.

To The Captain's Table, the cause of - and solution to - all of its own conceptual problems!

Thinking of Kirk's relatively recent misadventure, Pike casually asks if anyone has made it through the Galactic Barrier by Hompaq's time. She responds that it's happened a few times, but always at high cost. I read this as reference to Picard's Nuyyad experiences in the Stargazer stories, and possibly his later experience with 0, since Hompaq is from a point far enough along to know about Voyager being in the Delta Quadrant, so she must hail from a timeframe post-Pathfinder in her appearance tonight.

We have the obligatory notice that Number One and the computer sound suspiciously alike. As is almost always the case, we learn practically nothing about Number One and can easily assume that she is the immortal, Morgan Primus.
 
The Captain's Table does not appear to be such a game-breaker to the setting. Reading Voyager: String Theory puts into perspective: There's a plethora of higher-dimensional beings who can form various places out of thin air on a whim. in VOY:ST, it's a gambling palace with sport attractions. I'd say Cap is just another of those beings and he built the Table to entertain himself with mortals.
 
Although having the captains meet fictional characters like Captain Nemo in the Captain's Table is kind of a reach, unless we're supposed to believe they're the equivalent of holodeck characters of some sort. Though what particularly bugs me about the Nemo of Where Sea Meets Sky is that he's more the Disney version than the Verne version, what with all his talk about harnessing nuclear power.
 
The Captain's Table does not appear to be such a game-breaker to the setting. Reading Voyager: String Theory puts into perspective: There's a plethora of higher-dimensional beings who can form various places out of thin air on a whim. in VOY:ST, it's a gambling palace with sport attractions. I'd say Cap is just another of those beings and he built the Table to entertain himself with mortals.

Reasonable, but the more problematic aspect (and the real challenge to explaining this away) is the potential for pollution of the timeline, which seems inevitable no matter how careful one might be. And since the criterion for entry is "be a captain", clientele aren't affiliated with any particular organization and thus aren't even bound by a Temporal Prime Directive or equivalent, and we can't assume people wouldn't take complete advantage of anything they learned or conjectured. I mean, in this one, Pike is basically told that he ends up dying on Talos IV. Even if Cap is working his magic somehow to ensure that there's no negative effects stemming from anyone's visit (which seems all but impossible if people remember their experiences here), why would Starfleet captains, particularly after the creation of the DTI (so Pike's off the hook on that one, at least) happily visit and not immediately back out of the room upon entering? This gimmick makes no sense at all, really, but I suppose we just shrug and overlook it?
 
From Once Burned:

"Seated right there, on the other side of the Captain's Table, obviously having wandered in from an earlier time in his life. He has no idea what's to come, and thanks to the rules of this place...I can't warn him. Can't let him know what's to come.

Since these words were spoken by Mackenzie Calhoun, we can assume that this rule was tested (on probably more than one occasion) and he found it unbreakable.
 
From Once Burned:

"Seated right there, on the other side of the Captain's Table, obviously having wandered in from an earlier time in his life. He has no idea what's to come, and thanks to the rules of this place...I can't warn him. Can't let him know what's to come.

Since these words were spoken by Mackenzie Calhoun, we can assume that this rule was tested (on probably more than one occasion) and he found it unbreakable.

Well noted! Okay, so we can rest assured that The Captain's Table has built-in defences against large-scale information transferral that threatens to alter history.

That the establishment holds such power over those within its boundaries I accept well enough; once we assume that Cap is something akin to the Q, from those higher realms Markonian mentioned, then the usual rules are no obstacle. :) So The Captain's Table enforces a reality that won't permit a guest transferring too much in the way of information to another guest from downtime, to prevent contamination. But evidently some degree of information is picked up by visitors, some of it potentially sensitive, and the knowledge obtained when one is within The Captain's Table evidently endures upon leaving. (In Where Sea Meets Sky, Hompaq is reprimanded by Cap for the Talosian conversation and tries to justify her loose lips (and presumably her just skirting the letter of the local physical laws but infringing on the spirit, so to speak) by the fact that Pike is very soon to be "out of the equation" anyway).

Even if the chances of something large enough to resist being absorbed by the shape of history getting loose are zero, thanks to the inherent nature of the place, what's to stop the smaller stuff that does get through from accumulating consequences over the course of the years? If it weren't a Pike scenario in which he'll be out of the picture in a few months, and the changes could begin to snowball? Whatever knowledge or evidence is obtained, its capacity to influence one's own actions and choices should be a problem, even if the nature of the place prevents deliberate damage and sabotage, or the immediate dumping of anything that can't absorb into the current shape of history. Once someone steps back into their life, does the power of the establishment extend that far, to prevent the risk that they might be propelled to handle something different, and this in turn might eventually lead to enough changes that they begin to constitute a Problem?

Although I'm being foolish here, of course, for we don't analyse The Captain's Table, we rightly shrug and just enjoy it. ;)
 
Last edited:
^Perhaps someone learning about his or her future via the Captain's Table is part of what's supposed to happen via the natural flow of history. It's entirely possible that a character may take action to prevent said future from coming to pass, causing the events he or she hoped to avoid.

--Sran
 
Is "what's supposed to happen via the natural flow of history" even a concept that makes sense going by Trek's temporal physics? So long as it's self-consistent, it's allowed in a timeline, but I don't know if you can ever really talk about what's supposed to happen, just what happens. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "supposed to happen".
 
There are so many different parallel timelines coexisting that it's hard to believe in any single temporal destiny. There is arguably an overall flow of events, a most probable path, but there's clearly a lot of variation around it, a lot of timelines that are farther than others from the center of the bell curve.
 
Is "what's supposed to happen via the natural flow of history" even a concept that makes sense going by Trek's temporal physics? So long as it's self-consistent, it's allowed in a timeline, but I don't know if you can ever really talk about what's supposed to happen, just what happens. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "supposed to happen".

My use of supposed to happen refers, in this case, to the idea that a given event may be part of a self-consistent loop or other temporal phenomenon. For instance, theloop that resulted in the creation of the Borg also spawned the sequence of events that resulted in the Collective's destruction--a sequence of events that the Borg actually helped facilitate due to their interference with first contact in 2063, almost a century before Erika Hernandez and the Columbia reached Erigol.

--Sran
 
I am inclined to simply assume that Cap has magical/so-scientifically-advanced-as-to-seem-magical powers to prevent knowledge of uptime from corrupting downtime, and leave it at that.

Side-note: I've only read one Captain's Table story (the Demora Sulu one), and I don't remember Cap from it. So every time people have mentioned Cap in this thread, I keep picturing Captain America.
 
"The Squire of Gothos"

I'm not following the TOS Chronology thread (to my detriment here, I'm sure; apologies to those who would prefer a more tightly plotted approach to this part of the timeline), so I've decided to place "The Squire of Gothos" here. Partly because I'm assuming that the reason Enterprise is so far from the core worlds (900 light-years, apparently, although since distance is intimately associated with time in this episode and time is problematic here given references in the rest of the series, I'm not sure how attached to that number we should be) is because they're on their way back from their months-long exploration mission to the Omicron Delta region. They're heading to Beta VI now to drop off supplies, which does imply, however, that they've stocked up elsewhere in explored space. What "Beta" would mean exactly I'm uncertain of; does Beta VI exist in the same star system as Beta III? Is the star in fact Beta Something and it's simply, if confusingly, referred to as just Beta?

Again, this is an episode in which there's not much that relates to world building or the meta-story, except for the introduction of super-beings (assuming Cap doesn't count...), though how beings on this level are distinguished from something like the Thasians wouldn't yet be clear. Either by nature or by convention and design, the young super-being seems to lack access to the full range of powers available to its elders, being dependent on technology (or at least, on more unsophisticated and obvious technology; there's no reason to assume the parents aren't reliant on it too). Trelane is awfully good fun, I'll give him that. All the more so because Kirk and company, and thus the tone of the episode, remain serious throughout. This is an episode with a lot of silliness in, but it's not by any means a silly episode, and it's vastly superior to something like "Shore Leave". It's reminiscent of "Charlie X" of course (the ending is a little cheap, and almost undercuts the character by making explicit and unsubtle what I'm sure everyone understood about him already), and while it's not as intelligent as that episode, the relative shallowness might almost work in this one's favour. Trelane, after all, has as little depth as his hollow manor and its adornments; unlike Q, who is at times truly philosophically provocative, Trelane just makes shallow, off-the-cuff observations dressed up as pointed commentary. If he hadn't come first, he'd be a parody.

He's very well played, Trelane. Again, for all his inherent silliness, he works very well. One of the best villains we've had so far.

Continuity:

Trelane displays an inhabitant of M-113 (not a real one, I assume). It's a nice touch, I suppose, in that McCoy could be said to respond to it with guarded recognition. Given Trelane's predilections, we might assume that he knew more about the party than he was letting on (having accessed their databanks?) and was displaying it as a trophy in recognition of a "past conquest" for McCoy's benefit? The other stuffed being(?) on display is the avian thing from the Talosian zoo - eminently collectable, these things, apparently.

Next Time: Okay, back on schedule now with "The Menagerie" (parts one and two).
 
Either by nature or by convention and design, the young super-being seems to lack access to the full range of powers available to its elders, being dependent on technology (or at least, on more unsophisticated and obvious technology; there's no reason to assume the parents aren't reliant on it too).

Right. I've never understood why people are so quick to ascribe Organian/Q-level powers to Trelane when he's so clearly dependent on technology. Sure, his species is apparently incorporeal, but we've seen incorporeals dependent on tech before, such as the Wisps from ENT: "The Crossing," and we'll see others in the future, such as the energy creature from "Beyond the Farthest Star," which was helpless without a starship to possess.

Not to mention that most of what Trelane did could be done with a transporter and a holodeck. The only exceptions are "programming" Uhura to play the harpsichord and moving Gothos, the latter of which could've been an illusion. His parents did imply he'd made the planet, but maybe the whole thing was a holographic construct.

Trelane, after all, has as little depth as his hollow manor and its adornments; unlike Q, who is at times truly philosophically provocative, Trelane just makes shallow, off-the-cuff observations dressed up as pointed commentary. If he hadn't come first, he'd be a parody.

I'd say that "Squire" wasn't a vehicle for commentary so much as an excuse for raiding Desilu's prop and costume warehouses.
 
]I'd say that "Squire" wasn't a vehicle for commentary so much as an excuse for raiding Desilu's prop and costume warehouses.

:lol: Difficult to argue against, that.

Still, compared to many of the 'costume party' episodes, this one works very well, I think. The tone is so consistently serious without being excessively dramatic that the episode manages not to dragged into the nonsense even as it showcases it. Much like Kirk and company, themselves, I suppose; the episode quietly resists Trelane's efforts to drag it into a silly game and is rather respectable for that.
 
I'm not following the TOS Chronology thread...

That's too bad Nasat, I'm sure you could come up with some interesting additions to the conversation. I hope you find time to read through it at some point.

I probably should; I'm sure you're doing some very good work with it. Certainly no slight was intended; I've simply been a bit busy lately and haven't gotten round to delving in. That said, in deciding how I'm going to approach season two for this thread I could probably do with looking over your considerations (the TOS five-year mission is, perhaps inevitably, the area of my working timeline that's the weakest, as I'm sure these last few entries have made clear...)
 
"The Menagerie", parts one and two

tinkle tinkle tinkle elevator music! :D

This is a very interesting idea for an episode (or two) and I think it works very well. It takes on even greater significance when approaching it as part of the expanded chronology, since we've spent additional time with Pike. I actually think it's quite clever how the original footage, the original story, is incorporated into the current series. It helps that I find "The Cage" very compelling, and I'm more than happy to watch it again. The new drama wrapped around it - the framing story - is provocative in its own right, which is the big potential stumbling point in doing something like this, so good show there. Even the title is clever enough, really, in that with the new understanding and the new circumstance in which Pike finds himself, the idea of Talos as a cage is now discarded, and favoured instead is the more neutral, even pleasing image of a menagerie; originally used alongside "cage" as a description, of course, but relegated to second-place.

I was genuinely surprised the first time I saw this to find that Mendez as he existed on the Enterprise was an illusion. The ending is also effecting. It's touching, it means the episode adds to the original story as well as retelling it, and it gives the Talosians themselves some character development - in the Keeper's final comment, a willingness to tip their hats to the choice of reality over illusion, as it were. Plus of course they're no longer antagonists. It's really one of the more elegant and interesting examples of foes softening into friends. All in all, this is a lot better than it has any right to be, given that most of it is replayed footage from another episode.

In other matters, there's an awful lot of faith placed on the Vulcan cultural honour system in this one. Spock's embrace of the Vulcan mystique and its virtues is evidently so powerful and convincing that he's impressed it on the rest of the crew; Kirk and McCoy at least. That's my interpretation, anyway, since it's a little odd that the pair of them are all but claiming that Vulcans lack the physical capacity for disloyalty or deliberate falsehood. Of course, this entire piece is about Spock's incomparable willpower and determination, as well as the close interpersonal relationships he commits to, so I suppose we can take it as another aspect of that. Spock sells his idealized interpretation of the Vulcan way so well that he's practically an ambassador already.

We'll learn more about what went on here (particular in terms of Pike's responses) and what happens to Pike on Talos IV in Burning Dreams, somewhere down the road.

Continuity

I assume that the reason for the Enterprise crew being unaware of Pike's accident in spite of "subspace chatter for months" on the subject is because they've been out on their long-range exploration trip to Omicron Delta and back.

Enterprise again puts in at Starbase 11, now commanded by Commodore Mendez. Starbase 11 is a bad place for Kirk. Whenever he comes here, there's controversy and recrimination over discrepancies between his ship's records and reality. I wondered during that heated exchange with Mendez near the beginning if Kirk was thinking "not again!"

Travel to Talos IV - violation of General Order Seven - is explained to be the only death penalty in the modern Federation, implicitly due to the dangers of the Talosian illusions; more subtly, we might assume it's not the danger of the illusions being used against the Federation but the subversive appeal of them threatening to rot the Federation away from within as it did Talos. Just as - we once again see - the Keeper/Magistrate assumed would be the case. It's the ultimate community-destroying drug.

Next Time: "Arena".
 
Last edited:
^A great episode! As I've mentioned before, I really like Mendez and wish we'd have seen him again, either during the TV series or the films. He does appear in a few novels down the road, eventually earning a promotion to admiral. I wonder what he was like to work with as a captain; his demeanor makes me wonder if he came up as a security officer before switching to the command track, but he seems like someone most people would have enjoyed serving under.

--Sran
 
As KRAD pointed out in his recent Tor.com review, there's a hell of a lot about "The Menagerie" that makes no sense at all. Spock committed any number of career-ending crimes even beyond violating General Order 7, yet faced no consequences. The court-martial proceedings made little sense, and the reasons for the death penalty were vague. Moreover, as we got into in the review comments, the idea that Pike would've been unable to communicate beyond yes/no beeps makes no sense. Even if they didn't have the technologies we have today to allow paralyzed or "locked-in" people to communicate, couldn't Pike have used Morse code or something? Couldn't someone have just asked him a more useful series of yes/no questions to close in on just what he was saying yes or no about? Or, heck, couldn't they have used one of those brain-wave-reading universal translators we'll see next season in "Metamorphosis?" (See the link for more discussion.)
 
Or, heck, couldn't they have used one of those brain-wave-reading universal translators we'll see next season in "Metamorphosis?" (See the link for more discussion.)

Careful, you might migrate that other conversation over into this thread. :p
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top