Spoilers The Giggle grade and discussion thread

[DigificWriter]

RTD does add some fuel to the idea of the Timeless Child being a trick of some kind

That's one interpretation of things, but runs counter to RTD's tacit acknowledgment, both in-universe and out-of-universe, of the veracity and currently binding nature of the Timeless Child lore as an origin for The Doctor.

I wonder if this could explain the fugitive doctor

The Forgotten/Fugitive Doctor has already been explained; she's a Doctor who predates the First Doctor.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

So the Doctors said Bi-Regeneration was a myth.

What if it caused by what 14 feared in Special 2, evoking superstition at the edge of the universe.

Yeah, it's seemingly the same principle with the Toymaker's realm being in play here. Both were myths/superstitions and true. Also, nice comment from the Toymaker about making a jigsaw out of the Doctor's own history, and the little frown 14 does, implying that a lot about the Doctor's past is up to interpretation if you please:

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And this sort of thing is continuing, with the Doctor facing even more gods or god-like entities in the upcoming seasons:

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[David cgc]

More than anything else, it reeks of what Marvel did with Norman Osborne and Peter Parker at the close of the Clone Saga and I still loathe that reveal.

Having long-forgotten whatever little I picked up second-hand about the Clone Saga, it's interesting that this is the second time in as many hours I've heard someone talk about it in the context of this episode, though the other person was referring to the having-cake-and-eating-it of having one Doctor get to relax while another one does interesting stuff you can tell adventure stories about.

Too long, didn't read: I'm rambling about how far I want Davies and others to use The Toymaker manipulate The Doctor's existence. I think it's a very fine line to walk before things get too warped and threatens the loss of genuine risk. Or am I worrying too much in a show like Doctor Who?

I think we might already have reached that point. I've spent entirely too much time trying to nail down my thoughts, so I'll just sum up that I fear the revival is becoming too reverent of the classic era and too dismissive towards itself, and that's not good for (or to) an audience who's been watching the revival for going on twenty years now. We'll see how the Christmas special and the new season go, but everything about the "bigeneration" idea makes me think the show doesn't need RTD, it needs someone willing to make the kinds of choices RTD did in 2005 in looking forward and not backward, and prioritizing the audience's sentimentality over their own.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I saw the bigeneration as the same sort of effect that allowed 10 to regenerate his "fighting hand", with the regeneration energies still settling. I mean, how long was he the 14th Doctor? About a day? If there was still active regeneration energy from the regeneration into Fourteen when the regeneration into Fifteen was triggered, then perhaps the still active energy from the first regeneration fixed the damage the Toymaker caused to Fourteen, while still triggering a regeneration into Fifteen.

 

[Mr Awe]

I fear the revival is becoming too reverent of the classic era and too dismissive towards itself, and that's not good for (or to) an audience who's been watching the revival for going on twenty years now. We'll see how the Christmas special and the new season go, but everything about the "bigeneration" idea makes me think the show doesn't need RTD, it needs someone willing to make the kinds of choices RTD did in 2005 in looking forward and not backward, and prioritizing the audience's sentimentality over their own.

I agree with some of your ideas. Although, I think it's a whole lot simpler than that.

We just need someone to focus on good stories. You can respect the past but there's no need to try to change the past. Make changes going forward.

For example, in 2005, DW started the idea of the Time War, the last Time Lord, etc. Those were new ideas that affected things going forward. (Yes, I know they technically happened before Rose.) Those new ideas didn't attempt to change, rewrite, or cause us to reinterpret what we know already happened.

Now we've got these showrunners trying to make a mark by changing stuff that already happened. Just make changes going forward.

Tell good stories. Respect the past. Make changes going forward.

 

[Starkers]

I saw the bigeneration as the same sort of effect that allowed 10 to regenerate his "fighting hand", with the regeneration energies still settling. I mean, how long was he the 14th Doctor? About a day? If there was still active regeneration energy from the regeneration into Fourteen when the regeneration into Fifteen was triggered, then perhaps the still active energy from the first regeneration fixed the damage the Toymaker caused to Fourteen, while still triggering a regeneration into Fifteen.

I think RTD has pretty much confirmed that everything that happens to Fourteen takes around a day!

 

[The Wormhole]

A day feels a bit on the short side, unless all three specials were supposed to be happening in real time. I'd personally extend the timeframe to a minimum of two or three days.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Where would the extended time go? There's barely a moment of breath from scene to scene and each episode leads directly into the next.

 

[The Wormhole]

I may have faulty memory, but I was under the impression there was at least some breathing room in The Star Beast as the Doctor conducts his investigation and we see some downtime with the Noble family.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Just watched the behind the scenes on Youtube and damn Tennant is fit!

 

[Seven of Five]

That was a great conclusion to the special, and I can't wait for the Xmas one. Ncuti Gatwa made a reasonable impression on me considering his short introduction here, and I want more.

Having another Tennant Doctor out there made me and my husband laugh. When Donna was convincing him to stop saving everybody all the time, we thought that he and Donna could go backpacking across Europe, and do a new Who spinoff series.

Neil Patrick Harris was good as the Toymaker, and the titular giggle was pretty creepy.

 

[Qonundrum]

Yeah, it's seemingly the same principle with the Toymaker's realm being in play here. Both were myths/superstitions and true. Also, nice comment from the Toymaker about making a jigsaw out of the Doctor's own history, and the little frown 14 does, implying that a lot about the Doctor's past is up to interpretation if you please:

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"I'M ALREADY RUNNIIIING!" = awesome

Jigsaw of the Doctor's past = great

Gold tooth twinkle = lame

All in all, it's a great scene. Don't let one nitpick take ya out of it.

NPH steals the show. But it's too easy to see why he was cast.

 

[jaime]

I feel like the game of catch was perfectly in line with doctor who.

the doctor is constantly making mention of how he defeats monsters and villains with trivial things

“ I once fought so and so with hopping!”

“I fought Robin Hood with a spoon” (which actually happened!)

so this seems in line with how the doctor usually rolls

“I beat a celestial god in a game of catch”

Would have been better if one of the Doctors had simply thrown a ball and said catch, quietly but firmly. And the Toymaker then realising he had lost a game he didn’t even know he was playing.

Seven would have done it.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I think RTD has pretty much confirmed that everything that happens to Fourteen takes around a day!

if you take into account the forced regeneration into The Master, and then the forced regeneration back into being the Doctor, that's four regenerations over 2 days.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

if you take into account the forced regeneration into The Master, and then the forced regeneration back into being the Doctor, that's four regenerations over 2 days.

It's no wonder The Doctor needed a damn break!

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Two days with Donna and Family is going to be like two years

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

My head-canon is this: He spends his time with Donna and family, then takes the TARDIS and frees Nardole from that ship, and together they spend the rest of his days in Trenzalore. Before he regenerates, he "unites" with either 15 or any of the other Doctors as a kind of bi-Watcher or whatever.

 

[Starkers]

If Fourteen doesn't eventually regenerate into Ncuti then what happens to him? Do we think he:

1. Simply dies
2. Regenerates again (and if so does he bi-generate again? Christ what a mess that'd create!)

 

[Mr Awe]

That question about 14 also applies to all the other bi-generated versions of the previous Doctors who didn't regenerate (e.g., The 4 that now exists who gets up and walks away from the radio telescope).

Do they die or regenerate?

It's a big mess either way, but bigger if they regenerate.

And if they regenerate, do they change into the next version (4 -->5) or a totally new and different Doctor?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I just read a YouTube comment comparing the Toymaker to TNG’s Q, and I feel ashamed I didn’t notice the similarities myself.
Toymaker very much feels like a sinister version of (a) Q.
Maybe with the attitude of Trelane.

There's a fanfic I read in the 90s -- "The Doctor and the Enterprise-D," I think it was called -- in which Q is the Celestial Toymaker. He'd been banished or exiled from the Doctor Who universe, and Guinan was sort of a minder to keep a watch over him.