Spoilers The Giggle grade and discussion thread

[Shawnster]

10 retires with Donna and family and takes them on holiday vacations through time and space in his TARDIS?

Yeah, right. Sure. And this dict6, who is the doctor with all the doctor's sense of morals and motivations, is going to just sit back in retirement while people across time and space need help and are in distress.

Pull the other one.

I'd love to see NPH as The Toymaker return. He'd make a great recurring villain or a season long arc nemesis.

In other news, I like this explanation found on inverse.com much better than the "every incarnation of the doctor just bi-generated".

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/doctor-who-bi-generation-14th-15th-doctor-time-loop-theory

All the Doctors just kept running never stopping to feel their feelings or cope with the massive losses they’ve encountered over the years. “But you're fine,” 15 says. “I'm fine because you fixed yourself.”

This seems to mean that 15, as he exists now, has all the memories that 14 is going to make with Donna and her family, and is benefitting from his previous self-care. If that’s true, that means that when 14 dies, he will simply cease to be — his regeneration into 15 is simply an advance on what would have happened later.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

 

[JoeZhang]

This is fine as a concept, except 15 has no idea what is going on when he first appears and has no idea if regeneration will work.

However, we work it off-screen - it's a confusing concept on-screen, but that is just how RTD rolls, so that doesn't particularly bother me.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

It's just a more modern less tramatic take on regeneration without the trama that all us classic Who children suffered when we watched our fav doctor once again die and be replaced by a new actor........ they brought kids up quickly back then......

60/70s Child "mom what is happening to dr who"
60/70s mom " He is dying, it happens to everyone, i will die, your dad will die, you will die one day, it's life, everything dies and whatever you do before that happens is all pointless.......now blow out your candles and happy 7th birthday". Lol

Now is you will excuse me i am off to buy tobacco at the ice cream van for my father, then off to ride a bike without any safety gear or lights on the main roads, then i think i will see how fast i can hit the klackers together while bringing them as close to my face as possible. Lol

 

[David cgc]

I tried to find it a few months ago and couldn’t, but I remember many years ago someone here had a really insightful take arguing that the overarching theme of RTD’s entire (original) run was learning about, accepting, and coming to terms with mortality. That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case this time.

 

[Starkers]

I tried to find it a few months ago and couldn’t, but I remember many years ago someone here had a really insightful take arguing that the overarching theme of RTD’s entire (original) run was learning about, accepting, and coming to terms with mortality. That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case this time.

I always felt RTD's run suggested the opposite, too often rather than characters coming to terms with loss they were afforded a cheat, a get out to partially replace what they'd lost. Rose grew up without Pete, until she had the chance to have her father, albeit an alternative universe version of him, same with Jacqui who lost her husband, only to get a faux replacement. The worst example of course was Rose. She couldn't be with the Doctor, but she could be with the meta crisis Doctor.

I'm not saying Moffat was always better at this, far from it, but I think he handled grief and loss better on occasion.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Novelization coming on January 11th. There is an excerpt available describing the bi-generation from the Toymaker's point of view.

https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-f...Y21cj597hFh9_1tpRRPPbFM8dxF55FEw8wMNCI6I2C3s8

 

[David cgc]

Vox's Constance Grady has a fairly harsh take on the biregeneration that I tend to agree with, especially with RTD's additional comments about trying to make regeneration less of a downer. Her thesis is that the show gains not just from developing a new Doctor, but from making a clean break with the old one.

 

[Starkers]

Vox's Constance Grady has a fairly harsh take on the biregeneration that I tend to agree with, especially with RTD's additional comments about trying to make regeneration less of a downer. Her thesis is that the show gains not just from developing a new Doctor, but from making a clean break with the old one.

I can't disagree with that.

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

I'm not saying Moffat was always better at this, far from it, but I think he handled grief and loss better on occasion.

I'll give you the ending of Girl in the Fireplace and the Doctor's funk in The Snowmen in response to losing Amy and Rory. Though a recurring problem regarding death in Moffat's scripts is that he can never seem to leave dead characters dead. And worse, he resurrects characters despite having no further plans for the characters. Like the Paternoster Gang killed off in Name of the Doctor and resurrected in the same episode. They then come back only one time afterwards, in Deep Breath which at the time it aired Moffat made it very clear that would be their final appearance, and it turned out he was telling the truth as here we are nine years later and they haven't been back. Or Osgood, killed in the finale of Capaldi's first season, sort of resurrected the next season and never seen again.

But I've argued over Moffat's weird attitude regarding death of characters many times and have never come to a satisfactory outcome to that argument, and I don't expect to this time either. I will add that Moffat's frequent use of the "everybody lives!" ending many of his episodes have is that each time it's used, it retroactively cheapens the ending of The Doctor Dances. The whole reason "just this once, everybody lives!" was such a powerful moment in that episode is because it's accurate, for once everyone lived and the rarity of such an ending made it feel special. However, twelve years later when Moffat's term as showrunner ended and we got several more "everybody lives!" endings no longer feels like a unique instance, other than being the first time Moffat used what has now become a worn out trope of his.

Another thing I wondered, was RTD perhaps criticizing Moffat's thing of only sort of killing characters with the bit where the Toymaker was reviewing Amy, Clara, and Bill's fates, with the Doctor explaining how they only sort of died and the Toymaker scoffing "well, that's alright then!"

 

[auntiehill]

I gave this a B, but I have very mixed feelings about this episode. I kinda feel like the new guy got totally short-changed in his introduction. I mean, the new (old-new?) Doctor shows up but old Doctor refuses to leave? WTF? It robbed us of the drama of seeing 10 go (again) and pushed the new Doctor aside, like he was an afterthought. I don't even know this new Doctor and I feel like he's already been kinda screwed.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I'll give you the ending of Girl in the Fireplace and the Doctor's funk in The Snowmen in response to losing Amy and Rory. Though a recurring problem regarding death in Moffat's scripts is that he can never seem to leave dead characters dead. And worse, he resurrects characters despite having no further plans for the characters. Like the Paternoster Gang killed off in Name of the Doctor and resurrected in the same episode. They then come back only one time afterwards, in Deep Breath which at the time it aired Moffat made it very clear that would be their final appearance, and it turned out he was telling the truth as here we are nine years later and they haven't been back. Or Osgood, killed in the finale of Capaldi's first season, sort of resurrected the next season and never seen again.

But I've argued over Moffat's weird attitude regarding death of characters many times and have never come to a satisfactory outcome to that argument, and I don't expect to this time either. I will add that Moffat's frequent use of the "everybody lives!" ending many of his episodes have is that each time it's used, it retroactively cheapens the ending of The Doctor Dances. The whole reason "just this once, everybody lives!" was such a powerful moment in that episode is because it's accurate, for once everyone lived and the rarity of such an ending made it feel special. However, twelve years later when Moffat's term as showrunner ended and we got several more "everybody lives!" endings no longer feels like a unique instance, other than being the first time Moffat used what has now become a worn out trope of his.

Another thing I wondered, was RTD perhaps criticizing Moffat's thing of only sort of killing characters with the bit where the Toymaker was reviewing Amy, Clara, and Bill's fates, with the Doctor explaining how they only sort of died and the Toymaker scoffing "well, that's alright then!"

Even Harriet Jones lives, according to RTD.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-f...ain-doctor-who-character-isnt-dead-after-all/

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

Well, not in my head canon she doesn't. Yeah, I went there.

 

[David cgc]

Another thing I wondered, was RTD perhaps criticizing Moffat's thing of only sort of killing characters with the bit where the Toymaker was reviewing Amy, Clara, and Bill's fates, with the Doctor explaining how they only sort of died and the Toymaker scoffing "well, that's alright then!"

I've seen that reaction, but the same remarks could easily be leveled at RTD's companion exits, they just all happened before Donna left so she didn't need to be told about them. And RTD never had a problem calling out that he himself wrote the Doctor as a real bastard sometimes (though I preferred had that was done in Moffat's run; RTD had a tendency to lob in a narrative grenade like Davros accusing the Doctor of grooming his companions to do his dirty work for him so he could profess pacifism while still killing his enemies, and then not having the character or the narrative explore/resolve that, while Moffat more often had an answer in mind that he was working towards when he asked those kinds of questions, like having a hit put out on him in season 6 prompting him to wipe out his "oncoming storm," reputation in season 7, and the "Am I a Good Man?" through-line in season 8).

Rose Tyler, who the Doctor abandoned in a parallel universe and sent a half-assed goodbye as a tease rather than offering any kind of emotional closure.

But I left her with my angrier, more violent, and romantically available clone!

Well, that's all right, then!

Martha Jones, who couldn't get the time of day from the Doctor, gave up a year of her life preaching his wonderfulness, and ended up leaving her job and her fiancee to shoot aliens and advocate for planetary suicide.

She got married to Ricky. No, Mickey, it was Mickey, wasn't it?

Well, that's all right, then!

Jack Harkness, who killed his own grandson, I rest my case.

But I gave him a lead on some anonymous sex with a guy I'd worked with for five minutes.

Well, that's all right, then!​

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

Jack Harkness, who killed his own grandson, I rest my case.

But I gave him a lead on some anonymous sex with a guy I'd worked with for five minutes.

Well, that's all right, then!

Okay, that one is funny. I'll give you a Like for that.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

Vox's Constance Grady has a fairly harsh take on the biregeneration that I tend to agree with, especially with RTD's additional comments about trying to make regeneration less of a downer. Her thesis is that the show gains not just from developing a new Doctor, but from making a clean break with the old one.

I can't disagree with that.

Yeah, I agree with her analysis, too. Like I said in my review, Davies is trying to have his cake and eat, too. Again!

 

[diankra]

A subtle point that might be an accident, but maybe intended. Mel doesn't recognise the Spice Girls, being away from Earth for years.

 

[Australis]

The line about 14's rest benefiting 15. The Doctor isn't
linear in all aspects, that's how I took it.

And I know how they could fix the game of catch: superfast montage of the game,

cut to Donna and Kate.

DONNA: How long have they been playing now?
KATE: Three hours.

I mean, how long could you play catch for?

 

[Tuskin38]

That companion puppet show scene between The Doctor and the Toymaker has become a meme template

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Curious. So much to like, even love, and yet...

NPH delivered in spades, great to see Bonnie Langford, Ncuti Gatwa made a very strong first impression, consistently great and imaginative effects work, some very effective moments and sequences, and yet...

Something felt lacking. In spite of all that, it didn't grab me like Wild Blue Yonder did. Familiarity, perhaps? As others have alluded, there was more than a hint of an RTD greatest hits, not least in call backs to the Simm Master. Also, again as others have noted, none of these "Specials" really felt that special, enough like events. Most of all though, I think it's the ending.

For me, RTD didn't nail the landing, deliver the emotional release, the catharsis, and that's largely because I have no idea what to make of the "bi-generation". I'll have to let it percolate a while, but my initial response is to agree with those who felt it was much more about RTD having his cake and eating it than what was right for the character. Closure has arguably never been a strength of modern Who, and this just feels like more of the same.

Still, there's clearly some bigger plot at play, with all the hints and teases dropped, so I'll have to see how that plays out before I draw any more concrete conclusions.

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

That companion puppet show scene between The Doctor and the Toymaker has become a meme template

I've seen a few more Trek characters get that treatment. I think my personal favorite is:
"Trip Tucker died rigging an explosion to take out a group of alien raiders."
"They resurrected him in the novels!"
"WELL THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN!"