The Force/Limits

[JD]

If there is something out there that no Force user can do, is there really a difference? Let's look at Anakin for a second. He is the chosen one, with midichlorians even greater than Yoda's. Arguably, he was created by the Force itself. Maybe we can assume then that Anakin is the most powerful Force user ever, and but for his duel with Kenobi, he could have been the most unstoppable had he continued along his path. Whether that's true or not, let's assume it is for this purpose. If Anakin is the best of all time, and no one before or after is better than him, and there's something he can't do, that pretty much does impose a limit, doesn't it?

No it doesn't impose a limit, because even though Anakin is the best Force user ever, he is still a human, with limits to what he can do.
When beings use the Force all they are doing is briefly tapping into the Force to accomplish one small task.
You're talking about one person doing one thing at a time, I'm talking more generally all the different things we've seen all of the different beings do over the entire course of the franchise.

Is the Force itself a living entity? Or is it "an energy field created by all living things?" The prequels, much as many of us don't like them, established that there is a genetic basis for using the Force. While it goes very deep, it sure seems like The Force is, at its simplest, a tool, and what can be done with it depends on who is wielding it. I think several people in this thread seem to be saying the same thing.

That is a question without a easy answer, it's not really a living thing, but it does appear to have some sort of will or awareness.

Right, but for purposes of this conversation, the "if a person is strong enough" issue is not an issue, because in our fact pattern, the person wielding the Force is the best ever at it. You can call him Yoda, Vader, Palpatine, or even Freddy Force. The user that we are talking about can do everything we have ever seen with expertise. But if there is something THAT guy can't do, like say, crush a Death Star, or stop Superman/Hulk with the Force, then there have to be some kind of limitations.

There is a big difference between The Force itself and the people who use it. The Force is so far beyond physical beings that there is absolutely no way a physical being could ever do everything the Force is capable of.
Now all of the beings who have used the Force in the entire history of the galaxy, might collectively use the Force to it's full potential.

That's fair. So maybe the Death Star can destroy better than the Force and do things the Freddy Force can't do when it comes to destroying a whole planet, but Freddy Force can certainly do plenty of things that the Death Star can't, including maybe even surviving a Death Star blast on Alderaan.

Sure.

Beings like Superman and Hulk are so strong, they are almost like a planet themselves. Superman pre COIE, was capable of JUGGLING planets, and we all know how strong Hulk is. It seems that if there are things that Force users can't do no matter how good they are, then it would seem that beings like Superman/Hulk can't be stopped through the Force alone. A Force choke, or Force lightning wouldn't slow them down, and they would be strong enough that a Force user couldn't immobilize them. Whatever means a Force expert could use, it would not be easy and it would take more than the Force alone. It wouldn't be much different than Dooku realizing that whatever he threw at Yoda with the Force, Yoda could counter, so he gave up on that method.

They might be able to withstand a physical attack, but there are still other ways you could use Force against them, like a mind trick.

 

[fireproof78]

They might be able to withstand a physical attack, but there are still other ways you could use Force against them, like a mind trick.

Ugh, the thought bomb?

 

[Ithekro]

Some Force users use the Force like a sledge hammer. Others like a scalpel. The trick is to know which is better for any given application. Do you Force choke someone, or do you use your other abilities to get them someplace where you have the "high ground" so they defeat themselves via hubris?

 

[Kirk Prime]

No it doesn't impose a limit, because even though Anakin is the best Force user ever, he is still a human, with limits to what he can do.
When beings use the Force all they are doing is briefly tapping into the Force to accomplish one small task.
You're talking about one person doing one thing at a time, I'm talking more generally all the different things we've seen all of the different beings do over the entire course of the franchise.

But if there is something that even the best of all time can't do, then that has to imply a limit on the use of the Force. If no one is powerful enough to do something, then that is a limit.

Look at it like a world record. If you're the fastest sprinter of all time, then you set the bar as to what the fastest speed is. For this purpose, assume there will never be another person faster than you. You're it.

In my "best Force user ever" scenario, take anything we have ever seen anyone do with The Force. This guy can do that, and do it better than anyone who ever came before or after. He's just "Mr. Force."

There is a big difference between The Force itself and the people who use it. The Force is so far beyond physical beings that there is absolutely no way a physical being could ever do everything the Force is capable of.
Now all of the beings who have used the Force in the entire history of the galaxy, might collectively use the Force to it's full potential.

Let's take that and make that one person. He's just the ultimate guy. If there is something he can't do, I think it's safe to say, it can't be done by anyone else. Think of it this way--a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. That weakest link is really the maximum strength of that chain. There may be other links in that chain that are stronger, but the chain as a whole, can't do any more than that link's maximum.

Even if The Force itself is limitless, the user will always be that weakest link.

They might be able to withstand a physical attack, but there are still other ways you could use Force against them, like a mind trick.

I'm not an expert on the Hulk, but I seem to have a memory that despite his intelligence issues, he is hard to control mentally. Maybe a better Hulk expert can answer that. Like I can't imagine that in all the years of comics, the Hulk hasn't come up against Charles Xavier. But as for Superman, even in Episode IV, Obi Wan says that the mind trick only works on the weak minded. We saw in the prequels and in ROTJ that it doesn't work on everyone. Superman of course would not be weak minded and the mind trick wouldn't work. I figure there are several types of heroes or villains in DC and Marvel that could be more powerful than good Force users. I think an amazing battle would be say, Vader v. Hal Jordan. The Green Lanterns tend to be a good match for a Force user on paper.

Some Force users use the Force like a sledge hammer. Others like a scalpel. The trick is to know which is better for any given application. Do you Force choke someone, or do you use your other abilities to get them someplace where you have the "high ground" so they defeat themselves via hubris?

There is some definite inconsistency there. After all, Maul had the high ground too on Obi Wan.

 

[Ithekro]

There is some definite inconsistency there. After all, Maul had the high ground too on Obi Wan

Maul wasted the opportunity by being overconfident and flashy. Obi-wan didn't make that mistake with Anakin. Plus it is seen later that Obi-wan learned from his, and his master's, mistakes in that duel, and made the last fight with Maul...short.

It should be pointed out that not all Force users use the same skills. Even someone who is "the strongest Jedi ever" doesn't have some skills, while someone who is quite average in the Force might be able to do something amazing that even the Chosen One can't do. Its not a limitation of the Force. Its what the user knows or thinks they know. Ezra is extremely skilled in connecting with other creatures in the Force. Yoda is excellent at lifting objects and deflecting energy. Anakin can crush a trachea without being in the same room with you. Ashoka can turn off your lightsaber. Obi-wan can predict your attacks and throw up a perfect defense with his lightsaber. Mace can see the exact point of failure and exploit it. It goes on and on. There are rumors or Sith that could crush planets, stars. Cause supernova. Force Storms....create monsters. All sorts of things.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Maul wasted the opportunity by being overconfident and flashy. Obi-wan didn't make that mistake with Anakin. Plus it is seen later that Obi-wan learned from his, and his master's, mistakes in that duel, and made the last fight with Maul...short.

I guess that's fair. Interestingly enough, Maul was able to use the Force to survive getting cut in half. I wonder why Force users can't use the Force to heal themselves--like Maul summoning his lower half and using the Force to reconnect himself.

It should be pointed out that not all Force users use the same skills. Even someone who is "the strongest Jedi ever" doesn't have some skills, while someone who is quite average in the Force might be able to do something amazing that even the Chosen One can't do. Its not a limitation of the Force. Its what the user knows or thinks they know. Ezra is extremely skilled in connecting with other creatures in the Force. Yoda is excellent at lifting objects and deflecting energy. Anakin can crush a trachea without being in the same room with you. Ashoka can turn off your lightsaber. Obi-wan can predict your attacks and throw up a perfect defense with his lightsaber. Mace can see the exact point of failure and exploit it. It goes on and on. There are rumors or Sith that could crush planets, stars. Cause supernova. Force Storms....create monsters. All sorts of things.

Fair enough, and that's certainly true based on what we have seen. But for this purpose, we are talking about Freddy Force--the best of all time. He's the Apollo Creed of Force users (pre-Rocky). Freddy Force is all of the people you mentioned, but in one person, and better than all of them, at everything. He's so bad ass, he mastered both the light AND the dark sides of the Force. Of course, he doesn't actually exist in the Star Wars universe, but he is a theoretical character that can do anything that any Force user can do, and is the best at every skill. Freddy cannot do the impossible though. He's not God. So if there is something Freddy Force can't do, no one else in the Star Wars universe can't do it either. Freddy represents the maximum. And we want to find out what the maximum is. If Freddy can't crush the Death Star for example, that's a limit.

If Freddy can't do the mind trick on the Emperor, that's a limit.

If Freddy can't destroy a star, that's a limit.

I don't think limits are bad either.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

But for this purpose, we are talking about Freddy Force--the best of all time. He's the Apollo Creed of Force users (pre-Rocky). Freddy Force is all of the people you mentioned, but in one person, and better than all of them, at everything. He's so bad ass, he mastered both the light AND the dark sides of the Force. Of course, he doesn't actually exist in the Star Wars universe, but he is a theoretical character that can do anything that any Force user can do, and is the best at every skill. Freddy cannot do the impossible though. He's not God. So if there is something Freddy Force can't do, no one else in the Star Wars universe can't do it either. Freddy represents the maximum. And we want to find out what the maximum is. If Freddy can't crush the Death Star for example, that's a limit.

I find this line of thought very confusing, and I'm not sure what the goal is. What if I ask a similar question about how much can a human do athletically (speed strength endurance etc.)? I then say, "imagine a human that can do anything that any other athlete can do. He/she is as nimble/graceful as a 5 foot gymnast, and as strong as the strongest weight lifter, and as powerful as an Olypmic wrestler, and runs the mile in 3 and a half minutes, and then sprints the 100 meters in 9.5 seconds. Isn't someone going to cry, "foul" and say that this is impossible because it is the light weight and small size of the gymnast that maximizes her performance, and the massive muscles of the weight lifter that give him his ability, ... etc.

In other words, physical laws prevent maximizing every aspect of athleticism. It seems to me the same should be true of the force, even if it is not a real thing. The fiction should be modeled on reality if it is to be the most interesting concept.

Going further, whatever measure you make for human athleticism, that is not the ultimate limit because humans need a body to do non-athletic things. This means that the potential for a newly bred human could be much better, and so we have not really established the limit.

What do we do now? Do we invent a hypothetical animal that is as strong as an elephant and as fast as a cheatah, while at the same time can swing from trees like a monkey?

What is the ultimate energy limit in the universe? Ask what a quasar can do, not what a human can do, and still you have not reached the limit. Ask a physicist, and he will say, no energy limit is known, except in a thought experiment, which is unproven.

 

[Kirk Prime]

The Force is different than a human athlete in that a lot of it is mental, which transcends the physical. Yoda kind of does have the strength of an elephant, the speed of a cheetah and can swing from trees like a monkey. The Force lets you do that. Ultimately, it is MUCH more mental than physical if you think about it.

But if it makes it better, instead of one guy, make it the Freddy Force Five. Divide whatever abilities of the Force you like, and make one of them the best ever at that power. Just using the ability to crush things--is there something that person can't crush?

Force Lightning--is there something that person's lightning can't damage?

 

[Steven P Bastien]

The Force is different than a human athlete in that a lot of it is mental, which transcends the physical.

Is it that different? An athlete has to mentally control his/her body in real time, while barely having time to think. While doing so, he/she is tapping into stored and converted energy within their body and doing all this within established laws of nature. There is then a victor or a loser based on how well he/she optimized past training and real-time mental control.

Yoda kind of does have the strength of an elephant, the speed of a cheetah and can swing from trees like a monkey. The Force lets you do that. Ultimately, it is MUCH more mental than physical if you think about it.

But, in fiction how do we establish how much of it is physical and how much of it is mental? We see Luke die physically as he is employing his mental powers. The two seem linked to me. Surely, the analogy with athleticism not perfect, but how can it be when one is reality and one is fantasy. You say, "the force let's you do that", but this contradicts what you were saying before that different people have different strengths, which made you invent Freddy Force. So, I'm questioning if Freddy Force is consistent with Star Wars cannon. I'm no expert so I can only question it and not answer it. But, as I pointed out, if we want to use reality as a guide, Freddy Force can not exist. If you find Freddy Force in the next movie, or if a prophesy predicts him, then you have to modify the theory, but why assume it if you don't have to?

But if it makes it better, instead of one guy, make it the Freddy Force Five. Divide whatever abilities of the Force you like, and make one of them the best ever at that power. Just using the ability to crush things--is there something that person can't crush?

Yes there is something a person can not crush. Neutron stars for one, and I only need one example. I know there is the good point about the consequences of using great power. That is useful in limiting the power also, but even with that concept, why should we assume a person could otherwise have unlimited power? I would never assume that, and would only accept that if the cannon demanded it. If the canon is ambiguous about it, then there is no point debating it. Just assume whatever thing makes you enjoy the story more.

Force Lightning--is there something that person's lightning can't damage?

Thor's hammer obviously, and perhaps other objects that don't really exist. It's hard to find any real object that is not damaged by real lightning. So, unless something contradicts this in Star Wars canon, I say assume Force Lightning damages almost everything, with a few exceptions like neutron stars and black holes . If you find an example of where this is not true in the canon, you have to modify the theory. However, I assume that a force user can minimize or mitigate the damage from force-lightning.

Basically, I'm saying to extrapolate from the real world to the Star Wars world with a minimum number of assumptions and avoiding obvious contradictions within the canon. If you don't like that approach, make the choices you like without contradicting the canon.

 

[Ithekro]

Freddie Force? Wasn't he the front man and lead singer of Emperor?

 

[JD]

The Force is different than a human athlete in that a lot of it is mental, which transcends the physical. Yoda kind of does have the strength of an elephant, the speed of a cheetah and can swing from trees like a monkey. The Force lets you do that. Ultimately, it is MUCH more mental than physical if you think about it.

But if it makes it better, instead of one guy, make it the Freddy Force Five. Divide whatever abilities of the Force you like, and make one of them the best ever at that power. Just using the ability to crush things--is there something that person can't crush?

Force Lightning--is there something that person's lightning can't damage?

Yes there would be things that these people can't do, because there are always going be limits on what physical beings can do, but those are still not limits on The Force itself.
The Force is where the powers come from, but there is a lot more to the Force than just these powers. Even if there was a being or beings capable of mastering all of the powers we've seen, they still would not be using the full power of The Force, because that is simply not possible.
I'm done with this conversation, you're either completely incapable of understanding these concepts, or you're being purposefully difficult, either way there's no point continuing.

 

[Kirk Prime]

But, in fiction how do we establish how much of it is physical and how much of it is mental? We see Luke die physically as he is employing his mental powers. The two seem linked to me. Surely, the analogy with athleticism not perfect, but how can it be when one is reality and one is fantasy. You say, "the force let's you do that", but this contradicts what you were saying before that different people have different strengths, which made you invent Freddy Force. So, I'm questioning if Freddy Force is consistent with Star Wars cannon. I'm no expert so I can only question it and not answer it. But, as I pointed out, if we want to use reality as a guide, Freddy Force can not exist. If you find Freddy Force in the next movie, or if a prophesy predicts him, then you have to modify the theory, but why assume it if you don't have to?

I doubt we will ever see Freddy Force, because he would make people mad. He would be too powerful, and there's a loyalty to original characters out there that would not like someone out there more powerful than all of them combined. I think Freddy Force might be the Jar Jar of Jedi. Maybe, throwing in a prophecy and focusing the franchise on him, you could have a Freddy Force. But I think if he does exist, he would have to exist years before Yoda, or years after.

But back on topic, while yes, there are some analogous traits between a Force user and an athlete, like you said, it's not perfect. Freddy Force would be able to do what Luke did and not die. Of course, if you think about it, the idea of The Force weakening you to the point where you die is something fairly new, since we only saw it in TLJ. It's also one of the reasons the movie is despised by so many.

Yes there is something a person can not crush. Neutron stars for one, and I only need one example. I know there is the good point about the consequences of using great power. That is useful in limiting the power also, but even with that concept, why should we assume a person could otherwise have unlimited power? I would never assume that, and would only accept that if the cannon demanded it. If the canon is ambiguous about it, then there is no point debating it. Just assume whatever thing makes you enjoy the story more.

It makes sense though. If there aren't limits on how the Force can be used, then in theory, Freddy Force can be a complete God, with dominion over anyone, and unstoppable. That's the reason Superman has kryptonite. It means that mastering the Force will not make you completely invincible--that other beings could stop you. That allows for arguments between franchises (Thor's Hammer or Superman/Hulk).

Thor's hammer obviously, and perhaps other objects that don't really exist. It's hard to find any real object that is not damaged by real lightning. So, unless something contradicts this in Star Wars canon, I say assume Force Lightning damages almost everything, with a few exceptions like neutron stars and black holes . If you find an example of where this is not true in the canon, you have to modify the theory. However, I assume that a force user can minimize or mitigate the damage from force-lightning.

If Force lightning works like real lightning, then anything that real lightning can't damage, Force lightning can't damage. I would guess that in theory, wearing a rubber suit could protect you. But maybe Force lightning is like Superman's heat vision in some sense. Superman's heat vision is hotter than the sun, but there are beings that can withstand it because they are that powerful, like another Kryptonian.

If you think about it, Yoda was able to use the Force too--to deflect that lightning. As this is a Star Trek site, one thing THAT franchise showed us is that you can always come up with something that can counter something else. The closest thing to pure omnipotence is Q, but there are some beings that could deal with Q too.

Yes there would be things that these people can't do, because there are always going be limits on what physical beings can do, but those are still not limits on The Force itself.
The Force is where the powers come from, but there is a lot more to the Force than just these powers. Even if there was a being or beings capable of mastering all of the powers we've seen, they still would not be using the full power of The Force, because that is simply not possible.
I'm done with this conversation, you're either completely incapable of understanding these concepts, or you're being purposefully difficult, either way there's no point continuing.

Whether you're done or not, at least I wasn't rude.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

If Force lightning works like real lightning, then anything that real lightning can't damage, Force lightning can't damage. I would guess that in theory, wearing a rubber suit could protect you. But maybe Force lightning is like Superman's heat vision in some sense. Superman's heat vision is hotter than the sun, but there are beings that can withstand it because they are that powerful, like another Kryptonian.

If you think about it, Yoda was able to use the Force too--to deflect that lightning. As this is a Star Trek site, one thing THAT franchise showed us is that you can always come up with something that can counter something else. The closest thing to pure omnipotence is Q, but there are some beings that could deal with Q too.

I just wanted to clarify that I was not trying to say force-lightning needs to be something that works like real lightning. For example, I would not expect a metal cage (called a Faraday cage) to protect a person from force lightning. I think they are different phenomenon, or at least potentially might be different. I say this because one lightning strike does not stop and counteract another one in the real world.

My main point is that we have to allow for the obvious differences in the fictitious Star Wars world, but we don't need to push too far past what is obviously different and make it extremely different. In other words we can try to ground any uncertainty towards what we see in reality.

This is just a suggestion by the way. There is no crime in using your imagination and formulating a theory that goes in the other direction and diverges from real life in the most extreme way. Or, to do something in between.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Fair enough, though Force Lightning is some sort of energy weapon. We have learned that lightsabers can block it, as can the Force. So we know that perhaps other energy weapons can counter it. I think if we go across franchises, it probably wouldn't bother most versions of Superman, and Thor's hammer and the Hulk and other "invulnerable" types should be able to handle it as well. For all we know, there is a being like that in the SW universe that we haven't met yet. It wouldn't even have to be Freddy Force.

It's kind of like the mind trick works on some people, but not others.

Speaking of cross franchise fights, I always liked the idea of the Green Lantern Corp going against a Sith, or the Sinestro Corp v. the Jedi.

In many ways, the force users of Star Wars are a lot like Green Lanterns/Sinestro Corp members. The big difference though is that the force user doesn't need the ring.