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The Force/Limits
- Thread starter Kirk Prime
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OK, I'll take a crack at these. Keep in mind I claim no great knowledge about the SW-canon, but I'll just give an opinion.
It just seems reasonable to me that there needs to be an implied limit, no matter what dialog was said at different points in time. It's the old "Superman problem". That's why there is kryptonite. Because an unconquerable hero is very boring.
It seems to me that no Jedi, or other force wielder has this power to crush a death star or to engage a myriad of targets simultaneously. If it were just a matter of having a clear mind, then they don't need to do it during a battle. Just bring a ship as near as possible without detection, or station yourself on a nearby planet, and meditate until it blows up or gets crushed. Actually, why even crush the death star? Maybe a Jedi can mind-trick a soldier to hit the wrong switch and blow it up. But any significant member of the dark side of the force should know what the limits are, and hence make sure that the death star, or strategic attack, is not vulnerable to the obvious things a Jedi can do. It then becomes a battle that relies on what non-obvious things can be brought to bear.
It just seems reasonable to me that there needs to be an implied limit, no matter what dialog was said at different points in time. It's the old "Superman problem". That's why there is kryptonite. Because an unconquerable hero is very boring.
I have no idea, but maybe a Jedi has a sense of "fair-play"?
Like I said before, it could just be a teacher helping a student go to the next level. The next level is lifting objects the size of X-wings. Since this is within the scope of what Luke can be taught to do (eventually) Yoda tells him the size is not the important factor. I don't think this necessarily means that Yoda is saying there is no limit. It's just that the limit is far beyond what Luke is thinking. Yoda may not even know the real limit. Perhaps as he ages he gets more and more power, and never encounters a limit. Maybe there is no theoretical limit, but there is a practical limit of how much experience you can have in a limited lifetime.
Because any force-based methods that could work in destroying Death-Star (mind-tricks, moving of levers) have been foreseen and protected against. If you knew the force, and wanted to build a death star, wouldn't you make sure that a Jedi would not have an easy time destroying it?
Yes, I agree. You can't just crush it or blow it up. You would need to do a physical thing either directly by moving levers, or indirectly by mind-tricking the enemy into doing it. But, we have to assume that the builders built in safeguards, if not to protect the death-star, then at least to protect the story.
Who knows. He probably can't do either, but maybe one does not imply the other. It seems crushing a planet is beyond force-power (at least practically), otherwise you would not need a death star to destroy planets.
Again, I agree. It seems to contradict our intuition about the physical world, and worse, it creates a disaster for story writing.
At that point, he was still a force-baby and still learning. He did not even have the instincts to match his tauntaun. That creature knew there was trouble before Luke did. He was also in severe trauma at that point where he knew what was happening. But, I would expect a master Jedi could do a lot more. If a human can be choked with the force, then why not a big white monster. I assume he needs air and is not going to be much of an foe after you make him stop breathing.
Yes, which is a big problem if you are writing a story. So, either you have to limit the force, or hope that no one notices. Of course, we always do notice the inconsistencies. This must drive writers nuts (i'm guessing). They must be saying, "you want all the fun stuff, but you also want it to all be logically consistent". Something has to give. So, I don't know enough to know if you can resolve all the conflicts. I suspect not, but good luck in trying and enjoy the process.
The question being asked is the problem. Its the wrong question.
Its not about limits, its about what else happens if such a power is used.. Everything is connected in the Force. Balance and cycles. What happens if Yoda crushes the Death Star? What happens in the Force when he does this? Those are the questions to be asked. It is not about "why". 'There is no why'. It is a about do and do not. What happens if you do verses do not? Anything can be done with the Force, the questions are about should it be done, or should it not be done. Crush the Death Star? Force the Force to erase up to 2 million lives? What balances this? How does it compared with Luke's use of the Force to direct a torpedo to a weakness in the battlestation? Which causes more imbalance in the Force? Large application of the Force would probably cause as great a disturbance as the Death Star caused at Alderaan, that's even more imbalance. That feeds the Dark Side, and would make the Emperor even more powerful. Yoda would know that. He would avoid that at all costs. The imbalance of the Force was already too great.
Its not about limits, its about what else happens if such a power is used.. Everything is connected in the Force. Balance and cycles. What happens if Yoda crushes the Death Star? What happens in the Force when he does this? Those are the questions to be asked. It is not about "why". 'There is no why'. It is a about do and do not. What happens if you do verses do not? Anything can be done with the Force, the questions are about should it be done, or should it not be done. Crush the Death Star? Force the Force to erase up to 2 million lives? What balances this? How does it compared with Luke's use of the Force to direct a torpedo to a weakness in the battlestation? Which causes more imbalance in the Force? Large application of the Force would probably cause as great a disturbance as the Death Star caused at Alderaan, that's even more imbalance. That feeds the Dark Side, and would make the Emperor even more powerful. Yoda would know that. He would avoid that at all costs. The imbalance of the Force was already too great.
Wow, that's good. That is a very powerful concept for Kirk-Prime to use and seal up a lot of plot-logic holes. If ever there was a "duct-tape" for Star Wars, I would say that is it. I wish I could think of a more elegant thing to say, but no matter. No act can follow that Yoda-like rendition.
Yes it is, and the topic of this thread is a limitation of the use of the Force, which last I checked, was Star Wars.
Ok--but that WOULD imply there are limits to what the Force can do. Something that can be explored. You can certainly avoid the mind trick by employing people that it won't work on. But if you can build the Death Star to be immune to a Force crushing Jedi, that certainly means that there are things that even the strongest Force user can't crush.
Which is also logical, and maybe should be touched upon in a movie or the cartoon. And that leads to the next question--what is the limit for the biggest Force badass? From what we know, on the light side, that's Yoda. In canon, even though there may be a legend like Plagieous, let's just use Palpatine. It really doesn't matter because it's really about the strength of the Force user, not who he is.
I don't know if Dark Side users are more powerful. But maybe they have less morality to hold back. Could the dark side user do more than the light side user?
If there IS such a limit though, then Yoda's comment about size not mattering isn't true. It just means that the X Wing is not big enough for the size to matter and is well within Luke's abilities.
Well, a couple of things on that. First, the Empire, at this stage in the game, had destroyed all the Jedi and presumably did not know Yoda and Obi Wan were still alive. But let's ignore that because that leads to the question--why didn't the Jedi destroy the Empire fleet during the Clone Wars?
Let's go with your theory--the Empire built in some methods to stop the Jedi from using the Force. Forget mind tricks. I can see that being defended against. I'm talking, pardon the pun, BRUTE FORCE. Wave that hand and crush the entire small moon. Unless there are limits, this should be possible, especially for Yoda. Yoda, and any Jedi, should be able to crush star destroyers with their thoughts--unless they can't because there are limits.
So we get back to the Thor's hammer question. If there are no limits to the Force, then shouldn't a force wielder, even a dark one, lift Thor's hammer? And if they can't, then clearly there has to be limitations.
In fairness, the tauntaun incident was in Empire, before he even met Yoda, and the monster in ROTJ was after a fair amount of training. But that's a whole different topic of how Luke improved so much between Empire and Jedi.
But there really is a simple answer to this problem--there has to be limits on what even the greatest Force user can do. Without them, the entire franchise really comes down to a god like entity for some reason NOT using their god like powers to their maximum. That any issue of good or evil can be resolved with the Force, and the only threat to these gods are other gods.
We know Jedi are not immortal in that Yoda died. He said, "strong am I with the Force, but not that strong." So there is a limit on using the Force to sustain your life. Of course, TLJ kind of ruined that, as Yoda, from beyond the grave, conjured lightning and affected the physical world, but if Yoda can't make himself eternally alive, then logically, there has to be some things that no Force user can do.
Well hang on, in your own paragraph, you bring up an interesting point. What is the true difference between crushing the Death Star and using the Force to direct missiles to crush the Death Star? The same amount of lives are lost, and use of the Force caused them.
But one of the purposes of this conversation is not just good v. evil. In your paragraph, the light used the Force to destroy the same lives, but in a different way.
So let's take morality out of it. That's why I have a dark side and light side Force user in my examples.
This is another topic, but I'm someone who feels that the Force is not what's light or dark, but the user is. That if Yoda learned the dark side, but retained his morality, he could use the power of the dark side for good. Likewise, the Emperor could learn light side techniques and wield them for evil. But again, that's another topic.
Let's say the Rebels have this weapon, and want to use it to wipe out the Empire's fleet and restore democracy to the Galaxy. The Emperor doesn't care about balance or lives.
He just wants it gone.
Or say there is a planet that the Empire wants to destroy because it is rebelling.
Or the Emperor wants to destroy Alderaan to make Leia mad.
Does he need a Death Star or could he use the Force to blow the planet up? If he can't, then there are limits no matter what side you are on. If he can, then why have a Death Star?
Good. Now you can tell me what the fuck Thor's hammer has to do with Star Wars.
'The power of this battlestation is insignificant next to the power of the Force'. Even to Lord Vader the Death Star is just a thing. The Force can destroy planets and stars. But is causes imbalance in the Force. While that imbalance is considered of the Dark Side, there is a point where the problem is just that the Force will do its own thing. What does crushing a planet with the Force do? How does the Force balance itself out galaxy wide if someone uses it on a large scale? Was Luke's use large scale? No. It was a small manipulation. The result was not the use, it was the scale of power used. Massive uses of the Force will have something to balance it out someplace in the galaxy. Be that a Force storm, a nexus of power, a new force user, any number of things to balance the Force across the galaxy. The Emperor, despite appearances, does care about balance...as long as its in his favor and he can direct it. If its not under his control, or outside his vision, he doesn't want it, because the Force could easily do something outside his control and he's all about control and power and the manipulation of both. Crushing a planet with the Force is possible, but it has the problem of going out of the user's control. Either locally if the user is inexperienced or distracted, or via the act of balance elsewhere that is outside the user's vision, thus a threat, potentially. This is why Palpatine prefers to have no rivals, always to be in control, and to use tools of fear of force rather than just the Force itself to keep his Empire under his rule. It causes less potential problems within the Force that could come back and haunt him.....like Anakin would eventually do.
The other potential problem isn't a limitation of the Force, but of the user, as seen with Luke early on. The mind knows so many things, and to do certain feats with the Force requires one to know more, not only about the Force, but also what you are manipulating. Sure you could summon a Force storm and swallow a planet, drop it into a black hole. You could have it tear the planet apart, but do you know how? Is there a better way. A simpler way? Or is it more intensive to tear a planet apart on the atomic level? Or manipulate the core to spin too fast erupting through the mantle and crust? Or find enough matter in the Force to move a moon to drop on the world. Shove the planet into its own sun. Cause the star to supernova? Many ways it could be done. But at that point its up to what the user thinks is possible, and then figuring out how to do it, and what it would cost to do or not do in the Force. Can it be done while the user is nearby? Can it be done from light years away? Will that cause too much imbalance, causing side effects that the user cannot control? With the Force do its own thing on the other side of the galaxy as compensation? This is theoretically where Anakin Skywalker came from. Palpatine's master was trying to create life via the Force. He didn't do so directly, but the Force reacted to this and Anakin came about on a far off planet. At least that's one version of the events. Things like this are probably why Palpatine would rather have a Death Star than go around and personally shred rebel planets with the Force. Let the Kyber Crystals do the dirty work for him via Superlaser. Its less strain in the Force, meaning less chance of more Anakin types coming out to challenge Palpatine's rule.
The other potential problem isn't a limitation of the Force, but of the user, as seen with Luke early on. The mind knows so many things, and to do certain feats with the Force requires one to know more, not only about the Force, but also what you are manipulating. Sure you could summon a Force storm and swallow a planet, drop it into a black hole. You could have it tear the planet apart, but do you know how? Is there a better way. A simpler way? Or is it more intensive to tear a planet apart on the atomic level? Or manipulate the core to spin too fast erupting through the mantle and crust? Or find enough matter in the Force to move a moon to drop on the world. Shove the planet into its own sun. Cause the star to supernova? Many ways it could be done. But at that point its up to what the user thinks is possible, and then figuring out how to do it, and what it would cost to do or not do in the Force. Can it be done while the user is nearby? Can it be done from light years away? Will that cause too much imbalance, causing side effects that the user cannot control? With the Force do its own thing on the other side of the galaxy as compensation? This is theoretically where Anakin Skywalker came from. Palpatine's master was trying to create life via the Force. He didn't do so directly, but the Force reacted to this and Anakin came about on a far off planet. At least that's one version of the events. Things like this are probably why Palpatine would rather have a Death Star than go around and personally shred rebel planets with the Force. Let the Kyber Crystals do the dirty work for him via Superlaser. Its less strain in the Force, meaning less chance of more Anakin types coming out to challenge Palpatine's rule.
First of all, great Vader quote for this topic. But is Vader being literal there, or is he puffing his chest? A couple of minutes later, he force choked someone, but that's not the level of destroying a planet. What is truly odd about Star Wars is that people seem to have forgotten about the Force. Keeping it a little real world, if there were 10000 people on Earth with Force powers, and they were killed, people wouldn't forget their existence in 20 years. Nor would they ignore that there could be others.
But anyway, there doesn't seem to be an in canon explanation of why the Emperor doesn't just destroy Alderaan himself. The Emperor has no problem mass murdering. I don't see how the Force would care if you push a button on a machine, or use the Force itself to kill that many. In fact, when Alderaan was destroyed, Obi Wan felt that great disturbance in the Force. I think it's more the loss of life than the method of killing that truly matters.
I think the limitation of the user issue is solved by not using a guy like Luke, but rather someone who is as educated on the Force as it gets. A Yoda. A Palpatine. I don't think it should matter light v. dark here either. Give me the best ever, on each side.
Crushing the Death Star to prevent the deaths of billions--would that really be an imbalance in the Force? Does that mean if a Jedi saves a life, the Force must let the Dark Side take a life?
I don't know if balance is quite that literal. I don't think Anakin is the result of Palpatine's master trying to create life, because there was an ancient prophecy that predates that.
So let's take away the global scale of mass death. I think that's why the Thor's hammer question is good for this thread. You have an object that can't be wielded due to its own mystic properties, unless the wielder is worthy. Could someone versed in the Force, lift that hammer with the Force, if that person is also not worthy? Thor's Hammer is an example not because it's from another universe, but because it tests the idea of limitations.
Or if you truly want to stay in universe, pick a dead planet in a dead solar system.
No lives would be endangered.
Or let's take that Death Star and crush it without loss of life. Destroy the source of its power so it's just a floating rock. Crush the weaponry. Give it a good shove so that when it's about to fire, it misses the target.
None of that happened.
You are thinking way too hard Kirk, and taking this way too seriously.
By the PT there were only around 10k Jedi in a galaxy of trillions of people. Must people would never see a Jedi in person in their life times. Sure they’d hear stories, but they’d be stories, not actual proof. Plus couple that with what ever propaganda campaign the empire threw out, the changes to the education system. Only the oldest of the generation would know anything.
By the PT there were only around 10k Jedi in a galaxy of trillions of people. Must people would never see a Jedi in person in their life times. Sure they’d hear stories, but they’d be stories, not actual proof. Plus couple that with what ever propaganda campaign the empire threw out, the changes to the education system. Only the oldest of the generation would know anything.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking hard about something.
Fair point about the trillions of people, though the capital of the galactic senate sure had their share of Jedi, and as an audience, the people we saw certainly would have known, or at least should have.
Plus, some of these guys actually work with Vader, who, as we have seen, can force choke them at will.
The impression I've gotten when it comes to the Force, is that The Force itself is infinite, so yes theoretically the Force could destroy something as big as the Death Star, but the problems lie in the people using the Force. There seems to be only so much that physical body can take when it comes to using the Force, Luke had to sacrifice himself in order to project his image across the galaxy at the end of The Last Jedi, and we've seen other characters weakened and exhausted after smaller uses of the Force.
A person could probably try to crush the Death Star with the Force, but they'd probably kill themselves long before they actually did anything to it.
As for lifting Mjolnir, that has absolutely nothing to do with strength, it's entirely about who the person is. The strongest being in the entire history of the multiverse, who has infinite Force powers, and any other type of power you could think of could try to lift it, but if they aren't worthy it wouldn't matter.
A person could probably try to crush the Death Star with the Force, but they'd probably kill themselves long before they actually did anything to it.
As for lifting Mjolnir, that has absolutely nothing to do with strength, it's entirely about who the person is. The strongest being in the entire history of the multiverse, who has infinite Force powers, and any other type of power you could think of could try to lift it, but if they aren't worthy it wouldn't matter.
That doesn't make sense, the whole point of a prophecy is that it predates something. The whole point of a prophecy is that it can predict things centuries or even millenia into the future. Hell even today people were making a big deal out of a prophecy by the ancient Aztecs that said the world would end in 2012 and that was devised over 1000 years ago.
Why even assume that Anakin is the chosen one? The case could be made that it's Luke, in fact by Rebels Obi-Wan seems to think it is Luke. It could even be Rey.
Ok, so whether Anakin was the chosen one is something I take at face value based on the movies flat out saying so. That's a fun topic, but a completely different one. The case for Anakin is that his actions brought down both the Jedi and the Sith.
Anyway, back to this topic--I think the idea that while maybe the Force itself could crush the Death Star, but there is no user capable of doing that is logical. But is there canonical evidence that this theory is true? Certainly Luke's death is something that lends some support, but that's fairly new.
If there are things that could cause a Force user to die if they attempt, then yes, there have to be limits.
There have to be objects or beings so powerful, that the Force would not affect them if a Force user tried.
If the physical body's use of the Force is limited, then what can be accomplished with the Force also has to be limited. That means that Yoda's line about "size matters not," is not true. If the object is big enough, like a Death Star, then crushing it would tax the physical body to the point it dies, and maybe it's so big that only minor damage can be done to it using the Force.
But one could argue that goes against Vader's line about the Death Star being inconsequential next to the power of the Force. The Force seems to be capable of amazing things. In Vader's world, he is still wondering about whether the Force can give eternal life. Or maybe it can create life like it apparently did with Vader himself. While not as massively destructive as a Death Star, these things are pretty amazing. We have learned that the Force can sustain you in space unprotected.
Thor's Hammer is definitely about worthiness, and that does make sense. But if the hammer deems someone unworthy, that's the point of the question. If the unworthy but brilliant Force user can't lift the hammer, then you have a limitation.
If there are limitations as above, then beings like Superman and the Hulk could in theory be immune to the Force on their person, because they would be strong enough to maneuver against a Force user. So to defeat them, the Force user would need other means besides the Force alone. This is only true if there are limits.
Anyway, back to this topic--I think the idea that while maybe the Force itself could crush the Death Star, but there is no user capable of doing that is logical. But is there canonical evidence that this theory is true? Certainly Luke's death is something that lends some support, but that's fairly new.
If there are things that could cause a Force user to die if they attempt, then yes, there have to be limits.
There have to be objects or beings so powerful, that the Force would not affect them if a Force user tried.
If the physical body's use of the Force is limited, then what can be accomplished with the Force also has to be limited. That means that Yoda's line about "size matters not," is not true. If the object is big enough, like a Death Star, then crushing it would tax the physical body to the point it dies, and maybe it's so big that only minor damage can be done to it using the Force.
But one could argue that goes against Vader's line about the Death Star being inconsequential next to the power of the Force. The Force seems to be capable of amazing things. In Vader's world, he is still wondering about whether the Force can give eternal life. Or maybe it can create life like it apparently did with Vader himself. While not as massively destructive as a Death Star, these things are pretty amazing. We have learned that the Force can sustain you in space unprotected.
Thor's Hammer is definitely about worthiness, and that does make sense. But if the hammer deems someone unworthy, that's the point of the question. If the unworthy but brilliant Force user can't lift the hammer, then you have a limitation.
If there are limitations as above, then beings like Superman and the Hulk could in theory be immune to the Force on their person, because they would be strong enough to maneuver against a Force user. So to defeat them, the Force user would need other means besides the Force alone. This is only true if there are limits.
I said almost, but not quite, the same thing on the previous page.
I said, and still say and maintain, that any limits that there are to the Force and to Force powers derive from the Force itself and nothing else, certainly not "crude matter." While that's agnostic on the question of whether the Force has limits, it's compatible with the idea that the Force has no limits. On the other hand, the position allows there to be inherit limits in the Force, cf. omnipotence paradoxes which imply limits to absolute power around the fringes of the ultimate.
Because that is the official canon, according to the TLJ Visual Guide, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy at the end of Episode 6.
https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen_One
Obi-Wan was just disillusioned after Anakin fell to the Dark Side that he stopped believing.
I mean frankly anyone would. Why would any continue to believe Darth Vader was the chosen one?
Some Jedi could see the future, that is probably where the prophecy came from.
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On the what the user can do with the Force, but not what the itself is capable of.
There could be things powerful enough that a Force user might not be strong enough affect them, but the Force itself still could.
Not necessarily, if a person is strong enough, and has the right kind of training then there's no telling what they could do. Just look at all of the different things we've seen different Force users do.
Not really, all the Death Star can do is destroy things, the Force can do a lot of different things. So even if it's not infinitely powerful, it's still a lot more powerful the Death Star. The Death Star doesn't give people telekenesis, telepathy, super speed, visions of the future, ect, it just makes thing go BOOM.
It's not a limitation because it operates on a whole different level from the Force.
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Strength or speed don't matter when it comes to dealing with the Force. Even if they could potential doge a or withstand a physical Force attack, there are still plenty of other ways a Force user could attack them.
All true. It could also be that the prophesy is a complete load of bantha poodoo.
I mean it's not like were were ever given any context for the thing. Even now we have no idea who made that prophecy, when it was made or why the Jedi put so much stock in it.
That aside, I've always taken Lucas's intent for the prophecy to be *technically* right in that Anakin did destroy the Sith and restore balance to the galaxy....it's just that it left out the part where he was a murdering bastard for a few decades prior. The lesson being that the Jedi were too focused on the past where they should have been focused in there here and now. Hell, that's pretty much the first line of the PT!
If there is something out there that no Force user can do, is there really a difference? Let's look at Anakin for a second. He is the chosen one, with midichlorians even greater than Yoda's. Arguably, he was created by the Force itself. Maybe we can assume then that Anakin is the most powerful Force user ever, and but for his duel with Kenobi, he could have been the most unstoppable had he continued along his path. Whether that's true or not, let's assume it is for this purpose. If Anakin is the best of all time, and no one before or after is better than him, and there's something he can't do, that pretty much does impose a limit, doesn't it?
Is the Force itself a living entity? Or is it "an energy field created by all living things?" The prequels, much as many of us don't like them, established that there is a genetic basis for using the Force. While it goes very deep, it sure seems like The Force is, at its simplest, a tool, and what can be done with it depends on who is wielding it. I think several people in this thread seem to be saying the same thing.
Right, but for purposes of this conversation, the "if a person is strong enough" issue is not an issue, because in our fact pattern, the person wielding the Force is the best ever at it. You can call him Yoda, Vader, Palpatine, or even Freddy Force. The user that we are talking about can do everything we have ever seen with expertise. But if there is something THAT guy can't do, like say, crush a Death Star, or stop Superman/Hulk with the Force, then there have to be some kind of limitations.
That's fair. So maybe the Death Star can destroy better than the Force and do things the Freddy Force can't do when it comes to destroying a whole planet, but Freddy Force can certainly do plenty of things that the Death Star can't, including maybe even surviving a Death Star blast on Alderaan.
Beings like Superman and Hulk are so strong, they are almost like a planet themselves. Superman pre COIE, was capable of JUGGLING planets, and we all know how strong Hulk is. It seems that if there are things that Force users can't do no matter how good they are, then it would seem that beings like Superman/Hulk can't be stopped through the Force alone. A Force choke, or Force lightning wouldn't slow them down, and they would be strong enough that a Force user couldn't immobilize them. Whatever means a Force expert could use, it would not be easy and it would take more than the Force alone.
It wouldn't be much different than Dooku realizing that whatever he threw at Yoda with the Force, Yoda could counter, so he gave up on that method.
Like you said, Anakin did fulfill the prophecy--but not how the Jedi envisioned. The biggest problem with Anakin's fate is that his actions with the younglings made him irredeemable. But he was redeemed.
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