Spoilers The Flash - Season 5

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by dodge, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Nope, they were clearly going for "Nora is ceasing to exist." Being a time remnant is an excuse for not ceasing to exist.

    "Unrelated"? The Crisis has been sold as the Flash's ultimate fate for the entire series, and was pivotal to Nora's storyline and motivations. Now we learn that the events of this episode may have moved it up...and caused her to cease to exist as a result.
     
  2. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    ^What about that message from an older Barry Allen from further into the future?? Or that guy from the very distant future who claimed to have known Barry as a much older man...?

    Or did I miss something?
     
  3. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Neither of which changes the significance of the Crisis to Nora's storyline, or the looming presence of that headline throughout the series.
     
  4. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

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    I'm talking about the "ultimate fate"
     
  5. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It looked as if Shecada and Nora got Thanossed when they both vanished from existence.

    I always wondered how Nora would eventually get back to her original timeline, considering how she had altered the course of history by traveling back to 2019, meeting her dad and Team Flash, and helping to defeat Cicada (and presumably preventing Barry from disappearing) . But the season finale made it clear that she wouldn't return.

    I suppose it could've gone one of a few ways. First, had Nora lived and gone back to the future, it would have been a different timeline. But this kind of time travel is always faulty and poses a lot of contradictions. How could anyone effect temporal changes without himself or herself being impacted by the ripples of time? At least in this scenario, as appears to be the case in the Arrowverse, time can be malleable, but it takes time for the changes to take place or catch up.

    Another possibility would've been a predestination time travel, in which Nora was meant to travel back to 2019 in order for events to transpire naturally in the future (her present).
     
  6. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    This was a very good finale. How they dealt with Nora was really emotional and I kinda expected Iris to say she was pregnant. Now that would have been something, Iris being pregnant and then the change in the paper.

    It was a much more low key finale than I was expecting. I guess I’m so used to a cliffhanger that not having one is a nice change of pace. Yeah they have a tease but we know Crisis is coming.

    I wonder if I can get all the Crisis stuff with just two shows. I really don’t want to follow all four shows for a few months because it’s all about the crossover.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    They used basically the same visual effect Legends used to show the time remnant of Thawne disappearing from the timeline at the end of season 2. It's been repeatedly established that it's not natural for time remnants to survive, that the Time Wraiths eat them up or other things make them go away. Thawne's continued survival is clearly an exception.


    But it's narratively secondary to the season's driving arc of Nora defeating Cicada. Dramatically, it works better if it's the result of the resolution of that primary arc.

    Besides, nobody in that scene treated it as a mystery why Nora was disappearing. It was treated as the resolution of what had come earlier, not a foreshadowing of some new problem.

    Anyway, it's splitting hairs. Either way, it's the result of the defeat of Cicada unmaking the timeline Nora came from.
     
  8. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    I see it the other way. Nora wanting to go to the past to meet the father she never knew, and resolving her issues with the mother that raised her, was the heart of her story. Going back in time specifically to stop Cicada was "but we need a big bad for the season, however lame".
     
  9. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Captain Captain

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    I guess in some capacity my theory about Nora erasing herself came true. But this show sure takes liberties with time travel. If the dagger was destroyed in 2019, how would Thawne have ever been in jail? Following the timeline, Thawne may never have even been captured. I can sort of accept that Thawne's connection to the negative speed force makes him immune from timeline changes. It's a plot device, as weird as it is. At least it works to an extent.

    But Thawne should never have been able to be held. I guess we can just say that the timeline didn't catch up at that point in the episode and once Nora started to disappear, things started to go the way I'm thinking.

    I still hold out hope that we get a surprise and that Nora is only remembered by those that knew her in 2019, but is never born--so the Tornado Twins get their due.

    Isn't a time remnant basically a way for someone who ceases to exist to still exist? What is odd though is that everyone remembers Nora.
     
  10. ialfan

    ialfan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Much better finale than I expected after this season. Only thing I didn't like was Cisco taking the cure. I know they've been building up to it but it doesn't seem true to the character for me. I'm curious what would have been different if the actor hadn't wanted to leave the show.

    I'm hoping the show is more focused next season and uses the pared down cast to it's advantage instead of adding more than one new character.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I'd expect them to add Sue Dearbon as a regular, at least, now that they've teased her as a new client (or investigation subject?) for Ralph. Naturally there will be another Wells-of-the-Year. And presumably the big bad, whoever that might be. I doubt it would be Sue, since her evil turn in the comics is so poorly regarded. And there's no way it'll be Abra Kadabra, given how busy David Dastmalchian is with movies these days. (Well, unless he "disguises" himself and they recast.)
     
  12. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Captain Captain

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    I think you're right about Sue Dearbon. Think about it this way--Ralph has to meet and marry her. For that to happen, they have to cast someone Ralph will like. That means they have to write a character that the audience will like. Turning someone who is good evil isn't easy. Think about Caitlin. Killer Frost is supposed to be a vicious villain, probably the most evil of the characters we have encountered, but I think that Caitlin was so likeable that it was impossible for the writers to keep her a villain.

    I like that so far, in the two finales, there is so little on next season. I'm hoping they learn and don't have a full season villain arc. Obviously, Thawne will have a role in COIE. But it looks like they may really be setting up something bigger than the normal crisis.
     
  13. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Commodore Commodore

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    It’s not clear if Carlos Valdes is fully leaving the show. That was certainly the rumor most of the season. But Cisco appears to be staying in Central City and only said goodbye to Caitlin. Maybe he will be more like Captain Singh was and will continue as Chief Singh. As a reoccurring guest character who appears from time to time but not a regular.

    I was happy there was no big cliffhanger. Often they undermine the resolutions of the season’s plot lines. Plus considering Thawne is part of the upcoming Crisis it’s all tied together anyways.

    My big hope for next season is there is no new Big Bad before the crossover. Either stand alone episodes and/or more clues to the Crisis to come.

    Also Tom is back playing Eobard Thawne, is it necessary at all to introduce a new doppelgänger of Wells at all? I do not think so.

    I would be fine if they stay with this reduced regular cast. It would give them more time to bring back old friends for guest appearances.p
     
  14. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Captain Captain

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    All of the above are good ideas. I'd like them to clean up some injustices from Elseworlds, notably, the poor treatment of 1990 Flash. When we see cool things like that, and you already have the actor, give him more than a cameo where he gets dismissed like a jobber. They should take notes from the Avengers writers, who juggled a couple of dozen characters and found things for them all to do.

    I don't think there should be a big bad either. This year, Cicada was awful.

    It was a good season because of the Nora story. Sometimes a hero doesn't need a big bad. Look at Star Trek IV. How heroic were Kirk and crew? They saved the planet, but no big bad--just a probe.

    City on the Edge? No big bad. The Visitor? No big bad.

    The heart of this season was family.

    The Crisis can take place over all four shows, without much crossing over. What if instead of a big bad, next season, all four shows had plotlines related to the Crisis, but not requiring a crossover?

    So for example, there could a story on Earth 38 involving Supergirl, and maybe Powergirl, or another version of Supergirl. Or maybe Kara tries to engage on another Earth.

    There could be a story on Earth 1 with 1990 Flash and 2019 Flash. Obviously Arrow can show us what Oliver is doing with the Monitor, and so on.

    I'm not the writer, but the point is that the Anti-Monitor could be the big bad across the shows, setting off separate stories on each.
     
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  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It's a tradition at this point. Even first-season Thawne-in-disguise is routinely referred to as "Wells" by the regulars even though they should know better. It's just not Team Flash without some version of Harrison Wells, at least not in the characters' or producers' minds. Given how many times the team has sought out a new multiversal Wells to fill the void left by the previous one, it would be out of character for them not to recruit another Wells next year. Especially with Joe's new precinct-captain duties leaving him less time to spend with Team Flash and leaving a mentor gap at STAR Labs.

    Besides, Thawne had Wells's face in the previous season in "Crisis on Earth-X," but he wasn't a regular villain. It's easier to make Thawne a recurring presence when there's some restriction on his freedom to act -- as in season 1 when he was trapped in the present and had to pretend to be the Flash's mentor, or on Legends season 2 when he had the Time Wraiths after him and thus could only have a limited presence in any one place and time, or this season where he was in prison. If he's free and unrestricted as he seems to be now, it's hard to see them using him as the season-regular Big Bad, because he's just too powerful. Unless something happens in CoIE (which should be early in the season since it's in 2019) that diminishes his power or freedom, I don't see him being Tom Cavanaugh's regular role next year.
     
  16. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Captain Captain

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    What's going to be interesting is what they DO choose for the new Wells. They have had evil, brilliant, fraudulent, and detective. My favorite version is season 2, and they could always bring him back.

    If COIE goes a certain way, then the multiverse could collapse into a universe. That means only one Wells left.
     
  17. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    Does this mean that Nora's diary was consumed by the Negative Speed Force? It's still around...

    Maybe IT will be the big bad of next season...
     
  18. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    As someone who lives in the vicinity of Dearborn, Sue Dearbon will forever look like a typo to me lol.
     
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  19. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's still around because of some mumbo-jumbo about the weird characters Nora used to write in it protecting it from changes in the timeline.
     
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  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, I thought I saw "Dearbon" on that file and I couldn't believe I hadn't misread it. I thought it had to be either "Dearborn" or "Dearden" (a relative of Moira Dearden Queen, perhaps?). I guessed from context that it might be the future Sue Dibny, though, so I looked her up on the DC wiki and there it was, "Real Name: Sue Dearbon".