Spoilers The Flash - Season 4

[Dick Whitman]

Earlier in the season I asked writer Sterling Gates on Twitter about Barry's casualness with wearing the mask. Specifically I wondered if that is written in the scripts or sometimes improvisation by Grant and the directors? I got no reply but was wondering the same thing again tonight.

 

[Finn]

I'm a bit confused. How could have DeVoe thought of Siren-X unless he was monitoring other Earths? She was never a figure in the Crisis on Earth X plot arc.

Otherwise, for all he could have known, Siren-X was a thousand miles from Earth X's Snart at the time Barry went to get him....

 

[Snaploud]

I'm a bit confused. How could have DeVoe thought of Siren-X unless he was monitoring other Earths? She was never a figure in the Crisis on Earth X plot arc.

Otherwise, for all he could have known, Siren-X was a thousand miles from Earth X's Snart at the time Barry went to get him....

Yeah, the writers seem to be confusing super-intelligent with omnicient. You can be the smartest person alive and still make mistakes due to a lack of data.

 

[Christopher]

I'm a bit confused. How could have DeVoe thought of Siren-X unless he was monitoring other Earths? She was never a figure in the Crisis on Earth X plot arc.

Marlize had a line about how he could model probabilities across multiple universes, although that is rather ridiculous. I would've preferred it if he'd modeled everything that could happen in Central City but was taken off-guard by the visitors from Earth-X because they were outside his model.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I thought Siren-X was going to be the variable he didn’t account for especially after she fended him off but they didn’t go there.

I wonder if they’re going with Marlize betraying him in the end. They seem to be setting up that she’s not going to come out of this unscathed.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder if they’re going with Marlize betraying him in the end. They seem to be setting up that she’s not going to come out of this unscathed.

It certainly looks that way. And next week's episode is called "Therefore She Is," in counterpoint to the Thinker-backstory episode "Therefore I Am." So I'd bet that's where Marlize makes her turn, or at least where she reaches the crisis point leading her to do so (although I suspect she's there already).

 

[Romulan_spy]

I wonder if they’re going with Marlize betraying him in the end. They seem to be setting up that she’s not going to come out of this unscathed.

This episode definitely seemed to be laying the foundation for that. We see Marlize shed a tear at the end because of how cold hearted DeVoe has become towards her. She desperately wants to have a loving relationship with the man that she fell in love with but that is now completely impossible. In this episode, DeVoe made it quite clear that he has rejected all emotions, is not interesting in any romantic relationship with her whatsoever and only wants her to be a subservient "mechanic" for his plans. And of course, we saw what happened a few episodes back, when DeVoe was drugging her to keep her loving and obedient. Yes, I think Marlize will betray DeVoe because she realizes that the man she feel in love with does not exist anymore and that his plan will hurt a lot of people.

I also think that this episode revealed DeVoe major's weakness: his complete inability to feel emotions or empathize. He did not factor into his calculations that Barry would have difficulty stopping Siren-X because of his unresolved grief issues. Likewise, I don't think DeVoe will even consider the possibility that Marlize will betray him because he is completely unable to factor in the emotional component of the human equation. Marlize will betray him and that will be the one thing that he won't see coming and that will play a big role in his defeat.

 

[Christopher]

In this episode, DeVoe made it quite clear that he has rejected all emotions, is not interesting in any romantic relationship with her whatsoever and only wants her to be a subservient "mechanic" for his plans.

Well, she always went by the Mechanic, at least in behind-the-scenes sources. What he called her here was his "technician," which seems more subordinate somehow.

I also think that this episode revealed DeVoe major's weakness: his complete inability to feel emotions or empathize. He did not factor into his calculations that Barry would have difficulty stopping Siren-X because of his unresolved grief issues.

As I've said, that's very implausible. You don't have to possess something in order to observe and predict it in entities that do possess it. He can calculate the parameters of superpowers he doesn't have, or predict the behavior of nonhuman things like dark matter and Speed Force energies, so surely he should be able to do the same for cognitive abilities like emotion even if they aren't part of him.

Plus, it's the corniest cliche in the book. Superintelligent villains have been getting defeated by their "inability" to feel emotion for generations. It sucks that they're falling back on giving the Thinker such an obvious, tireworn Achilles heel. It makes it way too easy for the heroes to win, because of course they all have emotion.

 

[Romulan_spy]

One issue I wanted to bring up about this episode: I find it interesting that the characters did not mention how unconventional Ralph's death was. In a normal death, there is a lifeless body to look at and also to bury to help bring closure. It's final. That is not the case here. There is no lifeless body to bury. DeVoe is using Ralph's body. When we see The Thinker, that's actually Ralph's body. The characters don't seem to react to the fact that when they see The Thinker, they are actually seeing Ralph's body being controlled by The Thinker. Ralph's death may also not be final like a real death since it is conceivable that Ralph's mind is still somehow in there and could be brought back. So it is conceivable that Ralph could be saved which if true, means that he is not really dead. So yes, Ralph is "dead" in the sense that the Ralph they knew, with his personality and all, is gone right now, but it is far from a normal death. I wish they had acknowledged these complexities.

As I've said, that's very implausible. You don't have to possess something in order to observe and predict it in entities that do possess it. He can calculate the parameters of superpowers he doesn't have, or predict the behavior of nonhuman things like dark matter and Speed Force energies, so surely he should be able to do the same for cognitive abilities like emotion even if they aren't part of him.

I agree. You would think that he could factor in other's peoples emotional reactions to situations into his plans even if he himself does not believe in expressing emotions. But it is also clear that DeVoe has a disdain for emotions. He considers them to be weaknesses. So maybe that is the reason why he does not factor them into his calculations. Why take them into account when he considers them unworthy of consideration? Still dumb, I agree, but might be an explanation.

I just wonder if we will get a cheesy speech in the finale about the value of caring for others, love, emotions, and feelings and how those things will always triumph over evil.

 

[Christopher]

The characters don't seem to react to the fact that when they see The Thinker, they are actually seeing Ralph's body being controlled by The Thinker.

The Flash certainly reacted to it. It was right after he saw "DeVoe"'s body distort Elongated Man-style to absorb the blast from the Sonic Scepter that he became paralyzed with guilt and grief.

 

[Romulan_spy]

The Flash certainly reacted to it. It was right after he saw "DeVoe"'s body distort Elongated Man-style to absorb the blast from the Sonic Scepter that he became paralyzed with guilt and grief.

Right you are.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Well, she always went by the Mechanic, at least in behind-the-scenes sources. What he called her here was his "technician," which seems more subordinate somehow.



As I've said, that's very implausible. You don't have to possess something in order to observe and predict it in entities that do possess it. He can calculate the parameters of superpowers he doesn't have, or predict the behavior of nonhuman things like dark matter and Speed Force energies, so surely he should be able to do the same for cognitive abilities like emotion even if they aren't part of him.

Plus, it's the corniest cliche in the book. Superintelligent villains have been getting defeated by their "inability" to feel emotion for generations. It sucks that they're falling back on giving the Thinker such an obvious, tireworn Achilles heel. It makes it way too easy for the heroes to win, because of course they all have emotion.

Corny...but LOGICAL based on what is happening to him... these engancements have made him super focused on his goal... is ther enot a parallel with Barry? Devoe even has someone who truly cares for him.... but that is where he becomes the "unredeemable villain" -- not willing to let others who care about him speak truth and he listens.

Also, in addition to intelligence, his ego has to be shooting through the roof.

It might be corny for his wife to betray him...but makes sense to me!

 

[Christopher]

Hmm, two breakups this week. Cisco and Gypsy breaking up was unexpected and felt too much like the TV formula of requiring relationships to reach a crisis and end. I dunno, maybe that was necessitated by Jessica Camacho's availability, but it still feels forced. Though I am glad Cisco didn't take the job. It's basically bringing people in to be executed for something that shouldn't even be a crime anymore. And Earth-19 looked kind of dark and dystopian and unpleasant to live in -- like Earth-X but tending to blue lighting rather than red. Odd, because it looked pretty normal the last time we saw it.

The other breakup, of the DeVoes, was one I've been anticipating for a while, but it didn't go at all the way I expected. I thought we'd see a repentant, possibly tearful Marlize coming to Team Flash and offering her help to stop her husband. I didn't expect her to go all badass and hijack the Thinkerchair. She may be against Clifford now, but I was kinda getting supervillain vibes off her. Will she turn out to be the greater threat of the two after all?

The revelation of DeVoe's plan is underwhelming. "Technology is bad" is such a simplistic ideology. It's ridiculous to blame a tool for how people choose to use it. And it's hypocritical that they used all this futuristic super-high technology of their own to pursue a world without technology -- don't their own methods contradict their thesis? Or at least prove to them that they're as corrupt as all the other abusers of technology they despise? How could two such supposedly brilliant people not see that glaring contradiction?

I was expecting something more like global mind control, the Thinker taking over everyone's minds and "educating" them to think the way he wanted.

And it's now confirmed -- Mystery Cute Girl is a speedster. I let out a hearty "Whoa!" of impressed surprise when I saw the speed lightning.

 

[thribs]

That baby must be Daniel West, who is the latest reverse Flash and she is Dawn. Daniel is probably her main foe in the future.

 

[Snaploud]

Devoe's master plan makes no sense. The guy doesn't respect emotions yet wants everybody to basically go back to a Hobbesian state of nature.

 

[UssGlenn]

Anybody else think DeVoe orchestrated the warlord attack to sway Marlize back to his side?

 

[Christopher]

Anybody else think DeVoe orchestrated the warlord attack to sway Marlize back to his side?

I don't believe the pre-Thinker DeVoe was that ruthless. Also, how would a history professor at Oxford have the money, contacts, and influence to arrange an attack in Kenya?

 

[Romulan_spy]

I was expecting something more like global mind control, the Thinker taking over everyone's minds and "educating" them to think the way he wanted.

Yeah, mind control would have been better. Earlier in the season, I actually thought that DeVoe wanted to make everyone smarter, hence why he called his plan the "enlightenment". That name seems like a complete oxymoron now considering that his plan is to make everyone dumber, the exact opposite of what an enlightenment is. In this episode, I initially thought that the satellites were just going to create a massive EMP that destroys all technology, and therefore force humanity to go back to a pre-technological state. The real plan was pretty dumb.

I would even have been ok if DeVoe

Spoiler: Spoiler for Avengers: Infinity War

pulled a Thanos on us and his plan was to wipe out half of humanity in order to "save" us (he does allude to overpopulation in the flashback when he challenges Marlize). That would have made more sense than his current plan.

As we discussed earlier in this season, I guess there is that risk when you portray your villain as super smart. It is rare that the audience is actually left in awe of how smart the villain was. In most cases, it just shines a spot light on the villain's dumb mistakes or the audience is left disappointed when the villain's plans are revealed to be less smart than what the audience expected.

I do think that either Marlize will team up with Team Flash to stop DeVoe or DeVoe will actually team up with Team Flash to stop Marlize. I think it is possible that Marlize could become the real villain and try to subvert the satellites for her own plan (hopefully one that makes more sense than DeVoe's).

 

[Finn]

I noticed how "Dawn"'s speed lighting awfully looks lot like Iris' when she had Barry's powers...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Earlier in the season I asked writer Sterling Gates on Twitter about Barry's casualness with wearing the mask. Specifically I wondered if that is written in the scripts or sometimes improvisation by Grant and the directors? I got no reply but was wondering the same thing again tonight.

Don't they they need a costume change to variate between mask-on and mask-off Barry?