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Spoilers The Flash - Season 2

But that's the problem -- you're looking at it solely from the man's perspective, as if the woman were merely a prize that he was entitled to win if he made the right moves in the game, rather than a person with her own emotions that need to be respected and understood. We're not just talking about any random woman, we're talking about a woman who saw her husband die in front of her just eight months ago, and on her wedding day, no less. It is incredibly callous to think that her grief is merely an inconvenient obstacle to a man's ability to score. Caitlin was completely in the right here.

I actually agree with Caitlin too. But both the man's and the woman's perspective should count equally. Yes, Caitlin's past grief matters and Jay should be sensitive to that. But I am sure it is not easy for Jay either. Knowing you are going to die soon would be pretty scary. And telling someone you love that you are dying is not an easy thing. Jay is in a tough spot. In fact, he might be reluctant to be start a relationship, knowing what both will lose and suffer, when he dies.
 
So, Patty's moving out of town? If only Barry had some secret ability to cross significant distances in a short amount of time...
 
^ Clearly the implication is that she's leaving him too.

It is incredibly callous to think that her grief is merely an inconvenient obstacle to a man's ability to score. Caitlin was completely in the right here. She's still grieving for a terrible loss, and she had the courage to risk opening her heart to another chance at love. For Jay to allow her to take that risk with him when he knows he's sick and dying, when he knows it could lead to her suffering the same terrible loss twice in as many years, is selfish and cruel.

Oh come now. This isn't some pickup artist looking to hit it and quit it, it's a man dying of a Conveniently Incurable Disease. As if people shouldn't be allowed to process their own emotions about something like that. Caitlin had a fair point but Jay wasn't committing some terrible sin.
 
^I'm not talking about Jay in that post. I was bothered by the way Romulan_spy chose to talk about it in the post I was responding to, couching it solely in terms of what Jay needed to do to get what he wanted. I think that's a one-sided way of looking at it.
 
Sure, but you also have to take what he's going through into accoung too. What Jay is going through can't be easy, it's got to be hard to accept you could be dying, and it's gotta be even harder to admit to somebody you care about.

Which doesn't make him any less wrong for putting his own fears above his recognition of how much he would be hurting her. Love means caring more about the other person than yourself. So as long as this conversation is only about what Jay is feeling, then it's the wrong conversation. Yes, he has his pain too, but that didn't give him the right to lie to her and deprive her of the information she needed to make an informed choice. That created a power imbalance in his favor. It was taking advantage of her. And that's just wrong.


All Johns did, according to Smith, was to say "Ahh" when asked about the possibility. Smith interprets that to mean "doors are being left open," but that's secondhand. It sounds more like Smith projecting his hopes than Johns actually revealing anything.
 
So as long as this conversation is only about what Jay is feeling, then it's the wrong conversation. Yes, he has his pain too, but...

"But?" He's dying. So long as this conversation is only about what Caitlin is feeling, then it's the wrong conversation.

Frankly though, the show's handling of Jay has been one of my biggest disappointments with the season. Just all around - Teddy Sears is doing a good job with what they give him, but that's really not much. I do wonder now though if Jay's disease, whatever it be, is what makes him slower than Barry at full strength - like Cable, constantly using a small bit of his power to fight the sickness. It would certainly be unique.
 
"But?" He's dying. So long as this conversation is only about what Caitlin is feeling, then it's the wrong conversation.

False equivalancy. My point is that it has to be about both their feelings. He lied to her; she did not lie to him. He knew everything about her baggage in the relationship, but he prevented her from knowing about his. That creates an imbalance. If she had been the one hiding a painful truth from him, I would disapprove just as much. But she didn't. He did.
 
"But?" He's dying. So long as this conversation is only about what Caitlin is feeling, then it's the wrong conversation.

Frankly though, the show's handling of Jay has been one of my biggest disappointments with the season. Just all around - Teddy Sears is doing a good job with what they give him, but that's really not much. I do wonder now though if Jay's disease, whatever it be, is what makes him slower than Barry at full strength - like Cable, constantly using a small bit of his power to fight the sickness. It would certainly be unique.

It's possible, but I think the show is going with the notion that "Wells" was right - there's no limit to what a speedster can do except what they believe they can. It's Barry's doubts that hold him back. Jay is "worse" in that he realized before trying that Zoom was stronger, so he never pushed himself. We don't know if he's ever had a fight he couldn't win without pushing himself, like Barry did with Girder.
 
So...Hunter Zolomon, a.k.a. Earth-1 Jay? Is that the cat Zooming out of the bag?

Also...Thawne didn't even know what time period the Flash was from? Doesn't say much for the mark that Barry will leave in history....
 
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Well, at least they tried to explain why Thawne wasn't retroactively erased from time, although the explanation doesn't make a damned bit of sense. Nor did the randomness of the alteration to the timeline affecting Cisco and nobody else. If this is the kind of temporal "logic" the Arrowverse producers have devised, we'd better not expect a lot of coherence from Legends of Tomorrow. Still, it's a good way to establish Thawne as a potentially recurring adversary and to explore his enmity with the Flash more fully.

Kinda sucks that the only reason Thawne became a villain is because he learned that history recorded that he became a villain. Although, really, that sounds more like he was predisposed to villainy anyway and let "destiny" be his excuse.

And why wouldn't facial recognition turn up someone who had the same face as Jay but a different name? Isn't that exactly the situation where it would be most useful?

The bit about Iris and Wally saying their goodbyes to their mother rang true to me. I went through a similar conversation when my father was in hospice care. He wasn't conscious, and I didn't see much point in going in to talk to him, but the hospice worker convinced me to do it and get some closure, and I did feel better afterward. I was struck by how cliched it all felt, like something I'd seen in a million stories, but then, some things become cliches because they're basic truths that apply most everywhere. (David Gerrold once wrote, "Given enough time, all the world's great wisdom will be expressed as cliches.")

That was a really dirty trick by Patty at the end there. In fact, given that Barry is a police employee, calling in a false crime report to him is probably illegal.
 
"Bye, Felicia" is a phrase that's taken off recently as a sarcastic way of
saying goodbye. According to Know Your Meme, it comes from the film Friday.

Weird...

And why wouldn't facial recognition turn up someone who had the same face as Jay but a different name? Isn't that exactly the situation where it would be most useful?

Wasn't his doppelganger wearing glasses? That's a very effective disguise in the DC universe.
 
Man that was an awesome episode and jam packed full of stuff.. not a minute wasted on filler.

It's insane to try and juggle 4 storylines, each of them more or less life changing and bring it together to form a coherent episode.

Barry and Patty
This got on my nerves quite a bit.. Barry finds his perfect match, a goofy, intelligent, dedicated and very attractive woman and they fall for each other, I loved the lead up and then them being in a relationship but then Zoom happened which threw Barry into a downward spiral. Since then i became really annoyed with Barry for holding back and sacrificing this relationship by not being completely honest. I got the reason for his actions but they felt hollow because quite a few people already know he's the Flash and Zoom knows most of them too so there is no point in Barry keeping somebody out of the loop to protect them. However this episode closed that pretty well and in a very satisfying (well, for us viewers) by actually "allowing" a secondary character to actually have a brain and put two and two together (and we are always ignoring the fact that even with his mask on everybody in our reality would instantly recognize Grant Gustins jawline and lower facial structure). Suddenly it didn't bother me and it started to make sense when Barry refused to acknowledge the truth and let her go. Her ruse was also wonderful because it gave Patty closure even if the final confirmation from Barry was lacking but that's the concept of unspoken words. Very well done but i also get the feeling it might not be the last we see of Patty.

Reverse Flash
Loved seeing him in action and it's nice to see that Barry could catch him meaning he has improved in speed from season 1. Christopher didn't like the explanation how he survived, i did and it was perfectly serviceable. Whenever a show or movie uses time paradox storylines it always creates an illogical mess so they kept it simple and it worked for me. It's a wonder that Barry is not breaking up mentally at this point by having every speedster he encounters be out for him, he has to set a person free who will one day kill his mom but hasn't done it yet.. it's enough to drive you nuts.

The West family
It's said that blood is thicker than water and with family you will forgive easier than anybody else and this was a perfect example. Well done acting on this storyline that could have fallen by the wayside in this busy episode but it was nice to see a human element in it that was otherwise occupied by superheroics.

Jay Garrick
Well, the name Hunter Zolomon ringed a bell in the back of my mind but since i'm not a DC man i had to wikipedia him and lo and behold.. the actual name of Zoom! It'll be interesting to see if this Earth 1 Jay Garrick (at least in visual appearance) is related to Earth 2 Zoom but it felt important and it may be setup for later. Still very interesting and i still can't wait for the season finale when they take in Zoom, Jax Garrick gets his speed back and we get the money shot of Barry and Jay running side by side.

That was one of the best episodes of the show so far and it's good that they are picking up speed again (pun intended) after helping set up Legends of Tomorrow (positive sideeffect is that hopefully Captain Cold is gone from this show.. man, i hated the character and the portrayal of him, the single worst thing about Flash). It's barely mid season so there's much to happen yet and i'm looking forward to it.
 
I liked this episode more than last week's. At least we got Patty one more time and yes she did finally find out, even though Barry came off kind of a dick in this episode. Wouldn't one think Zoom would be able to find out who Barry loves even if he hadn't told her? I'm sure he's pretty capable, considering how much he kicked Barry's ass in that previous episode. Also really liked the stuff between Joe, Iris, and Wally. It's those tender moments I've not seen that much of from Flash lately. I was a little disappointed with the way things ended with Reverse Flash. I guess it's a cyclical paradox kind of thing? Time Travel is so confusing. I still like Doc Brown's explanation the best.

By the way, thanks for spoiling the twist of Earth-1 Hunter. Not everyone reads the comics.
 
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