Spoilers The Flash (2023) -Review and Discussion Thread
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It wasn't something they wanted to address in this movie. They had already written a sequel which was ready to go depending on the success of this.
Given how cliched the "dead parent figure" aspect of superheroes is, a "dull" character with a completely different motivation was actually unique and interesting in its own way.
It was, that's why I think Johns was unoriginal when he did that.
Just like when he re-used the "Dead Mom" thing with Lois Lane, and wholesale copied his Hal Jordan/Carol Ferris/Hector Hammond Love Triangle and gave it to Clark Kent/Lois Lane/John Corben
You convinced me.
That, and my partner wanted to go.
You're right - it was good. Which means I was wrong for the ... <checks TrekBBS history> ... yikes. Anyhoo. Certainly the best DC flick I've seen in a while. So far as how it compares to Marvel fare: head and shoulders above anything I recall from Phase 4 (one of the reasons we stopped going to the movies). This movie had some heart, thanks in no small part by a surprisingly strong performance from Ezra and Ezra.
Keaton was fun, but it didn't make the movie for me. Nor should it have. I thought the nostalgia hit the right notes.
My biggest letdown is the introduction and departure of Supergirl. I know little of Supergirl's backstory or her prior incarnations save that she's related to Kal-El, but I liked this version and wanted more.
I was prepared for the multiverse CGI. If they want to call it stylistic choice, or that simply rendering to a higher quality wasn't within the budget, I'm not too bothered.
I'd go 3.5 / 5.
Just spit-balling in broad strokes here, but I think they could have "edgied" Barry by (for example) making him a cop who joined the force because of a "comics inspired me to seek justice" thing, got burned out/frustrated over all the injustice he saw on the beat, became a crime lab guy, got hit by the lightning, finally had a chance to be a superhero and...there you go...
Not just DC's. I like the bit in the Fantastic Four's origin where Ben Grimm says to Reed, "You don't have to make a speech, big shot! We understand! We've gotta use that power to help mankind, right?" Despite his angst at his horrible mutation, he just takes it for granted that he has a duty to be altruistic.
Although the thing about the Flash is, I don't think losing his mother was what motivated him to become a superhero; rather, it's what motivated him to become a CSI and try to prove his father's innocence. The powers came much later.
To be fair, the 1990s Flash show did the "Dead Relative" thing too but it was his brother instead of his mom.
And that was what inspired him to become the Flash, not to become a Cop entirely. He did that on his own.
It's the same thing with Superman. Until Superman (1978), in all previous iterations both Ma and Pa Kent were alive and kicking when Clark made the move to Metropolis to become a reporter.
The George Reeves version lost his father to a heart attack prior to leaving for Metropolis. In the comics it was not until the Byrne reboot of the 80's that both parents were depicted as living when Clark moved to Metropolis. Prior to that reboot, both parents died during Clark's days as Superboy in Smallville.
I am by no stretch a Snyder fan, barely even a DC fan, but credit where he is due — he got that Marvel does the ‘human heroes’ and that a fairly possible reading of DC, and one that provides a contrast to that in the era of Marvel movies roflstomping the cinema at the time, was to do the heroes as Demigods, with all the tragedy that classical history approach brings. He also aims for visually interesting, from the casting on up. Even Batfleck is visually very different from other screen incarnations, which is no mean feat. He’s also quite good at bringing that pantheon approach into a mix with contemporary (or in the case of WW, historical) stuff as both contrast and an element of realism. Some of that is obviously going back to Nolan’s Batfilms, but it did differentiate them from the Marvel option — something I don’t think Gunn will do. Gunn is basically Joss Whedon, but y’know, somehow not as sleazy.
Personally, I ended up liking Snyder’s take because it’s very clearly influenced by that early nineties era of DC, where Elseworlds was a regular thing, Son of the Demon, Watchmen, and DKR were the new foundation in the rear view mirror, and we could get something as weird and interesting as Sandman off the back of capes books. Ironic, considering how much I generally dislike anything with ‘dark and gritty’ or ‘grimdark’ in its DNA. But again — Marvel has human heroes, and even when tragic or dark, there’s usually a fluffier element inherent, and they use the ‘real’ world. DC is place where even the cities are caricatures to an extent, and so the whole thing perhaps should be much more dramatic and ancient feeling.
Not gonna rush for this one though, Ezra is weird and not in a good way by the looks of things.
I don’t think the performance of Black Adam was responsible for the box office misfortunes of Shazam 2 or The Flash. There was a brand acceptance problem for the DCEU long before Black Adam debuted. It started with the divisive Man of Steel and then went into this back and forth, as it seemed every step forward the DCEU made with the masses, there was a setback, or several, and now the mass audience doesn’t trust the brand.
Ezra Miller’s The Flash cameoed in BVS and the first Suicide Squad, and got more of an introduction in Justice League, and this all happened years before Black Adam came out. That was ample time for audiences to connect with Miller’s Barry Allen and apparently a lot of people didn't. There’s a stronger case to be made that Black Adam’s box office/reputation affected Shazam 2, owing to the comic book history of the characters. But that said, the mass audience wouldn’t know about that history, and two, the first Shazam also came out years before Black Adam, to rave reviews, but middling box office. That meant mass audiences were lukewarm on Shazam at best right out the gate.
The masses also shrugged or rejected Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman 1984, and The Suicide Squad before Black Adam came out. The Black Adam movie has its faults, but one of them is not dragging down the DCEU.
How can a movie that has largely already been forgotten in the public consciousness affect the box office of a film that has been super praised and that touted the return of Michael Keaton, arguably the most beloved actor still with us who played Batman? If Keaton, Miller, a new Supergirl, and the promise of multiverse fun can’t close the deal, that’s not on Black Adam. If anything, Black Adam's bad taste just became part of a narrative that was already out there for the DCEU.
I did enjoy The Flash more than Black Adam, but that’s because of Michael Keaton. The Flash was a decent film, but it was undone by too much unnecessary and unneeded fan service, questionable special effects, and perhaps trying to do too many things at one time. And I don’t think I need to get into the controversy swirling around Ezra Miller.
Ezra Miller’s The Flash cameoed in BVS and the first Suicide Squad, and got more of an introduction in Justice League, and this all happened years before Black Adam came out. That was ample time for audiences to connect with Miller’s Barry Allen and apparently a lot of people didn't. There’s a stronger case to be made that Black Adam’s box office/reputation affected Shazam 2, owing to the comic book history of the characters. But that said, the mass audience wouldn’t know about that history, and two, the first Shazam also came out years before Black Adam, to rave reviews, but middling box office. That meant mass audiences were lukewarm on Shazam at best right out the gate.
The masses also shrugged or rejected Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman 1984, and The Suicide Squad before Black Adam came out. The Black Adam movie has its faults, but one of them is not dragging down the DCEU.
How can a movie that has largely already been forgotten in the public consciousness affect the box office of a film that has been super praised and that touted the return of Michael Keaton, arguably the most beloved actor still with us who played Batman? If Keaton, Miller, a new Supergirl, and the promise of multiverse fun can’t close the deal, that’s not on Black Adam. If anything, Black Adam's bad taste just became part of a narrative that was already out there for the DCEU.
I did enjoy The Flash more than Black Adam, but that’s because of Michael Keaton. The Flash was a decent film, but it was undone by too much unnecessary and unneeded fan service, questionable special effects, and perhaps trying to do too many things at one time. And I don’t think I need to get into the controversy swirling around Ezra Miller.
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Did anyone notice Afleck refer to the events of Zack Snyder's Justice League, when talking about Barry turning back time? That doesn't happen in the Whedon cut. Instead he saves one Russian family.
Yes, I noticed that, and I've also seen it mentioned in a few spoiler reviews online. Also, Iris says she thought she had seen Barry just a few years ago, which he denies. This is a referrence to Barry rescuing her at super-speed (the famous hot dog scene), which also happens in the Snyder version and not in the theatrical cut. So, yeah, The Flash firmly establishes the Snyder Cut as being the canon version, not that it really matters, since neither version will be canon going forward.
You have it backward. That never happened until the John Byrne reboot in 1986. In the first telling of Superman's origin in 1939, he decided to become Superman after both his parents had died. In the George Lowther version used in the radio series and the George Reeves TV series (which I believe originated in Lowther's 1942 Adventures of Superman novel), Clark's father Eben Kent had a heart attack and told his young-adult son on his deathbed that Clark needed to use his powers for good -- the direct inspiration for the 1978 film version. The comics adopted a version of this in 1948, except in that version, Clark's mother had died years earlier, rather than outliving her husband as in the Lowther version. In the Silver Age, the Kents died together from an illness while Clark was still Superboy, with Jonathan giving Clark the same speech about using his powers for good (a bit redundant this time since he was already a superhero).
https://www.cbr.com/superman-parents-jonathan-martha-kent-deaths/
Byrne changed it because he realized people lived longer than they used to, so it was more likely for an adult to have both parents still living. This version, with both Ma and Pa Kent still around in the present, was adopted by Lois & Clark and Superman: The Animated Series among others. But starting with Smallville, the trend of killing off Jonathan reasserted itself.
Question for all American folks here (spoiler off course).
We see that eventually Barry's father is cleared thanks to supermarket video created by the new timeline.
But then why is there a criminal trial at all? I mean, it's a perfect alibi. "Where were you?" "At the supermarket" "Ah right the video confirms your alibi, goodbye".
I understand it's not meant to be a documentary about the American legal system, but is there at least a vague verisimilitude in what we've seen?
We see that eventually Barry's father is cleared thanks to supermarket video created by the new timeline.
But then why is there a criminal trial at all? I mean, it's a perfect alibi. "Where were you?" "At the supermarket" "Ah right the video confirms your alibi, goodbye".
I understand it's not meant to be a documentary about the American legal system, but is there at least a vague verisimilitude in what we've seen?
Ok, I understand the file was only recently recovered. But then shouldn't he have been released from prison as soon as the video was available? Was it necessary to do a new trial? Do they have to do it every time unequivocal proof of the innocence of someone wrongly convicted turns up?
So as of Wednesday the movie has still made less than was expected for it's opening weekend. It's possible that it's going to break the record for biggest second weekend drop for a major release.
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