It's an opinion. Not something to prove objectively. Having a literal Hell in a Star Trek movie is not something I would be into.
The Final Frontier - the best of the series?
- Thread starter Ken Dodd
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Well it wouldn't be a literal Hell, but the alien entity and its realm, that was responsible for the concept of hell developing in human mythology, back during a time when said entity was in contact with ancient humanity.
just saw 'It' (set in 1989) and without spoiling anything theres a scene outside a cinema showing some films from summer 89 so was expecting a certain one.. anyway been reading this thread and it got me thinking - Maybe the initial idea of Vs 'god' thing shouldve been more like 'It' (released in 1986 so was out there) - an entity tricking sybok into believing (as in the final film) and he then hijacks the Enterprise to its planet but earlier half way in the movie.. then after 'god' reveals itself it turns full on horror like 'It' with god (like Pennywise) stalking the crew on board the ship showing them their fears etc. could've been Star Treks first PG13 horror movie
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With those who give up their fears to the entity, rather then Sybok, or even Sybok acting as an unintentional conduit for the being.... to later possess/control those crew members, maybe a bit like being under the influence of Landru.
We could have gotten most of the same character moments, but with a more intense plot. I like it.
Its already been proven that 45 minutes of fat can be trimmed off without skipping a beat. Filling the rest of the movie with stuff like (Khan's suggestion) would have been fantastic.
I'm brand new to this forum but this thread confirmed that it was the right choice. Thank you all for having me.
For years when I hear people slag on Final Frontier I always have to defend it. I love the Yosemite intro, the score is gorgeous in that climbing scene, some of the best Kirk/Spock/McCoy scenes ever. The Enterprise A being a sort of cheaper fixer upper version of a Constitution class refit is so hilarious. I thought it was a great gag and way to raise the stakes for everyone.
The concept of Nimbus 3 being a failed planet of galactic peace exploited by a radical vulcan televangelist is such a cynically funny and strange narrative.
The first time I watched it as a kid I hated Sybok but as I've grown and revisited the film he is a tragic and sympathetic character. The scene when he shows Spock and McCoy their pain visions in the lounge gets me every time. DeForest Kelley acts his ass off in the movie.
I will say that there are a few things of course that are just straight bonkers about it. Not the least of which is a sort of Scotty/Uhura romance or at least sexual tension that literally comes out of nowhere 25 years into this crew being on screen together. They pulled it off and its charming because Nichelle and Doohan are such talented actors but like... its weird, right? Also its funny that David Warner plays the drunken teran amabassador in this and turns around and plays the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council and most influential diplomat of the 23rd century in the very next movie. Funny casting decision for such a small roll in this movie.
I agree it feels the most like a regular TOS episode, some serious Who Mourns For Adonais? vibes. Thats why I've always loved ST IX: Insurrection as well. It is just a fun, standalone, TNG episode with a bigger budget and extended length. I eat that for breakfast, man.
Also Kirk wearing some wranglers with a suede popped collar "duty jacket" over a t-shirt that Hug A Rock? Best ST uniform ever.
For years when I hear people slag on Final Frontier I always have to defend it. I love the Yosemite intro, the score is gorgeous in that climbing scene, some of the best Kirk/Spock/McCoy scenes ever. The Enterprise A being a sort of cheaper fixer upper version of a Constitution class refit is so hilarious. I thought it was a great gag and way to raise the stakes for everyone.
The concept of Nimbus 3 being a failed planet of galactic peace exploited by a radical vulcan televangelist is such a cynically funny and strange narrative.
The first time I watched it as a kid I hated Sybok but as I've grown and revisited the film he is a tragic and sympathetic character. The scene when he shows Spock and McCoy their pain visions in the lounge gets me every time. DeForest Kelley acts his ass off in the movie.
I will say that there are a few things of course that are just straight bonkers about it. Not the least of which is a sort of Scotty/Uhura romance or at least sexual tension that literally comes out of nowhere 25 years into this crew being on screen together. They pulled it off and its charming because Nichelle and Doohan are such talented actors but like... its weird, right? Also its funny that David Warner plays the drunken teran amabassador in this and turns around and plays the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council and most influential diplomat of the 23rd century in the very next movie. Funny casting decision for such a small roll in this movie.
I agree it feels the most like a regular TOS episode, some serious Who Mourns For Adonais? vibes. Thats why I've always loved ST IX: Insurrection as well. It is just a fun, standalone, TNG episode with a bigger budget and extended length. I eat that for breakfast, man.
Also Kirk wearing some wranglers with a suede popped collar "duty jacket" over a t-shirt that Hug A Rock? Best ST uniform ever.
I really enjoy the movie.
I also put Insurrection and Nemesis beneath it.
IMHO, the movie cannot be ignored for the following reasons:
1. The performance by Dee Forrest Kelly about euthanizing his sick father.
2. "Why does God need a Starship?"
3. The fact it probably was God and the Klingons killed him.
4. I also love Fallout: New Vegas planet.
I also put Insurrection and Nemesis beneath it.
IMHO, the movie cannot be ignored for the following reasons:
1. The performance by Dee Forrest Kelly about euthanizing his sick father.
2. "Why does God need a Starship?"
3. The fact it probably was God and the Klingons killed him.
4. I also love Fallout: New Vegas planet.
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Spock killed God
I just remember as a kid seeing the flying boots. That was so amazing to me. There are some very nice scenes in this movie....the camping scenes to me make up almost the whole heart of all the movies of showing why the relationship between the 3 main characters is so important. I love small scenes like that more so then non stop action.
It'd been awhile since i've seen the movie but i remember thinking its a fun advanture...the only thing to me that really stood out as weird was when the lady was dancing in full costume in the desert. Its like...'ok where the heck did she get that outfit?'
It'd been awhile since i've seen the movie but i remember thinking its a fun advanture...the only thing to me that really stood out as weird was when the lady was dancing in full costume in the desert. Its like...'ok where the heck did she get that outfit?'
I remember being all excited getting ready for this movie and coming out feeling a little letdown. I had to leave immediately after the showing, so I couldn't spend the rest of the afternoon with my group at the theatre because I had a meeting with my boss. That meeting was so that she could tell me that I wasn't fast enough washing dishes after a month on the job (my first other than paper routes) so I was fired.
It could be that everything together amplified my feelings about this movie that I generally pretend doesn't exist.
It could be that everything together amplified my feelings about this movie that I generally pretend doesn't exist.
It was a joint effort.
My general view of the Final Frontier was that it is actually a decent movie but the troubled production and confusion throughout means they really needed one or two more script treatments with someone who actually knew what they were trying to say and be consistent about it.
Really, I think they just needed to make the following changes.
1. Establish Sybok as a proper villain (albeit a well-intentioned one) who is an immensely powerful psychic even by Vulcan standards, someone Spock wouldn't speak of (because he warps people's minds and is a psychic rapist even if he thinks he's helping them), and that he has reason to believe he's giving the galaxy a God to worship. Most of it is in the script already but it's scattered about.
2. Give Uhura, Checov, Scotty, and Sulu all their own little character bits because it's literally a movie where the bad guy gets into all their heads.
3. Remove some of the genuinely stupid.
4. Give at least a short explanation for "God."
"What was it, Spock?"
"An immensely powerful alien life form imprisoned long before the human race evolved from animals. My brother was capable of sensing it with his powers and was manipulated to its own ends."
"Might it have some connection to ideas of God across cultures?"
"No, Jim, because it wouldn't need a starship."
It was a joint effort.
My general view of the Final Frontier was that it is actually a decent movie but the troubled production and confusion throughout means they really needed one or two more script treatments with someone who actually knew what they were trying to say and be consistent about it.
Really, I think they just needed to make the following changes.
1. Establish Sybok as a proper villain (albeit a well-intentioned one) who is an immensely powerful psychic even by Vulcan standards, someone Spock wouldn't speak of (because he warps people's minds and is a psychic rapist even if he thinks he's helping them), and that he has reason to believe he's giving the galaxy a God to worship. Most of it is in the script already but it's scattered about.
2. Give Uhura, Checov, Scotty, and Sulu all their own little character bits because it's literally a movie where the bad guy gets into all their heads.
3. Remove some of the genuinely stupid.
4. Give at least a short explanation for "God."
"What was it, Spock?"
"An immensely powerful alien life form imprisoned long before the human race evolved from animals. My brother was capable of sensing it with his powers and was manipulated to its own ends."
"Might it have some connection to ideas of God across cultures?"
"No, Jim, because it wouldn't need a starship."
The troubled production is very much the root of it...strikes strikes and more strikes, no money to repaint or relight the borrowed TNG sets, and the finale nibbled away at dollar by dollar. In retrospect, the ILM C team would have been a better choice too.
The script...yeah, I kind of agree, much of what was there didn’t come over in the finished product, and your little coda there would have saved many many years of internet angsting.
One of my favourite scenes in the franchise. If trek had ended right there at least it would have been a fitting send off.
Human beings ARE animals. To say otherwise is "illogical."
It was a joint effort.
My general view of the Final Frontier was that it is actually a decent movie but the troubled production and confusion throughout means they really needed one or two more script treatments with someone who actually knew what they were trying to say and be consistent about it.
Really, I think they just needed to make the following changes.
1. Establish Sybok as a proper villain (albeit a well-intentioned one) who is an immensely powerful psychic even by Vulcan standards, someone Spock wouldn't speak of (because he warps people's minds and is a psychic rapist even if he thinks he's helping them), and that he has reason to believe he's giving the galaxy a God to worship. Most of it is in the script already but it's scattered about.
2. Give Uhura, Checov, Scotty, and Sulu all their own little character bits because it's literally a movie where the bad guy gets into all their heads.
3. Remove some of the genuinely stupid.
4. Give at least a short explanation for "God."
"What was it, Spock?"
"An immensely powerful alien life form imprisoned long before the human race evolved from animals. My brother was capable of sensing it with his powers and was manipulated to its own ends."
"Might it have some connection to ideas of God across cultures?"
"No, Jim, because it wouldn't need a starship."
It's my biggest "missed opportunity" in the franchise. If they had just polished the script and story a bit more...it could have been the best Trek movie ever.
But, it was not. And it is not.
I actually love the premise.
Eh, it seems like a fairly typical Sci-Fi plot for the series. It's just no one has any idea what's going on in the theater for the most part because things keep getting thrown at you before you can take a minute to process it. In fact, let me rewrite the movie in a single coherent paragraph and you can tell me if it's insane.
"Spock's previously unknown and banished brother, Sybok, is an immensely powerful psychic who is searching for the origin of God across the universe. A being he has sensed is actually real and speaking to him. This leads him to a Wild West hellhole of a planet called Nimbus III, where he takes over by removing the pain of those he encounters as well as replacing it with joy. Kirk and Spock get their ship hijacked by the cult leader as well as his followers before being forced to take him to the center of the galaxy. It turns out it's an evil alien energy being and they barely escape with their lives."
If I was a producer making notes I'd say:
* Show Sybok actually doing some mind healing and why someone would want it.
* Have Sybok and Spock interact a bit more
* Clear up why Sybok believes specifically in the Christian or Hindu God specifically is real even if it's just, "I've talked to him."
* Show Sybok tempting crew members with definitive moments (maybe replace Spocks with his death and Kirk specifically dealing with David's death)
* Remove some of the slapstick and the fact the Enterprise is falling apart
Go.
This would fix 75% of the film.
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