Exactly the Federation helped Bajor because the Bajorans asked for help. Picard helped Data's little friend (don't recall the episode title) because the little girl asked for help. Ok she did not know how powerful her new friends were but still...
The Federation Prime Directive; Non Interfere Policy
- Thread starter Brainsucker
- Start date
Exactly the Federation helped Bajor because the Bajorans asked for help. Picard helped Data's little friend (don't recall the episode title) because the little girl asked for help. Ok she did not know how powerful her new friends were but still...
That's like saying "If smoking crack cocaine was bad for your health, people would stop doing it."
The negatives VASTLY outweigh the positives, which is why the Prime Directive exists.
Nope. Kira was willing to put up with the Federation presence on Deep Space Nine ONLY because the Federation would respect Bajor's sovereignty even after the wormhole was discovered. If the Federation had tried to annex Bajor or forcibly overthrow the ruling party in a military action, she would have turned insurgent pretty much immediately. We know this because this is what she did when the DOMINION captured Deep Space Nine, and in that case they weren't even occupying Bajor.
So what? The Federation isn't interested in protecting the whole galaxy from bad guys. The Federation's first concern is protecting the Federation. It DOESN'T MATTER if everyone else screws around with the internal politics of primitive civilizations all over the place; the Federation refrains from doing so and thus spares itself all the unintended consequences of those actions.
Whatever else you might theorize about what "might" be if things were different, it's obvious that this works extraordinarily well, considering Starfleet is still a force to be reckoned with after two hundred years. The same cannot be said for the Terran Empire.
Who cares? The Prime Directive is intended to protect both the Federation and the rest of the galaxy from the Federation's own hubris. It's NOT meant to protect the rest of the galaxy from being meddled with by anyone else.
And even WITHIN possible interpretations of the Prime Directive, that problem isn't completely solved.
How many people smoke crack? For any disadvantages it might bring, they clearly see an obvious upside to it.
Tasks of the Klingon military:
1. Internal repression.
2. Guarding the borders against high tech powers. At least one, the Romulan Star Empire, would be interested in conquering Klingon space, given the opportunity.
3. Conquest
Number 3 must not take so much resources as to compromise 1 and 2.
4. Wage a defensive war. I don't know if the Kinshasa are canon, but you are attacked by a genocidal, high tech power, you would have to make choices. You would be forced to devote enough resources to fend off the attacker, while guarding the Romulan border, and having a reserve for internal repression.
One way to mitigate the situation is peace with the Federation. This is a power which has a strong defense, but shows no interest in military conquest.
1. Internal repression.
2. Guarding the borders against high tech powers. At least one, the Romulan Star Empire, would be interested in conquering Klingon space, given the opportunity.
3. Conquest
Number 3 must not take so much resources as to compromise 1 and 2.
4. Wage a defensive war. I don't know if the Kinshasa are canon, but you are attacked by a genocidal, high tech power, you would have to make choices. You would be forced to devote enough resources to fend off the attacker, while guarding the Romulan border, and having a reserve for internal repression.
One way to mitigate the situation is peace with the Federation. This is a power which has a strong defense, but shows no interest in military conquest.
Last edited:
SOMEBODY did, but it certainly isn't me. For whatever reason both the Federation and the Klingons sincerely believed the Empire was on its last days with the loss of Praxis and I see no evidence whatsoever that contradicts this. Consider also that the Romulans only attack in force when they sense weakness, then Khitomer and Narendra are both indicators that those early estimates were right on the money.
Or so Picard tells Garrett, in a bid to convince her to go on a suicide mission. Trouble is, it's a bit of a stretch to say a war can "go badly" for a whole twenty two years without one side or the other ever achieving victory. Very few wars in history ever actually last that long and the few that do are actually protracted rebellions/insurgencies by a decimated population with nothing to lose against a tactically superior opponent that can't really afford to win.
It's entirely possible that when Picard is talking about surrender, he's talking about the end of Federation occupation of Qo'nos.
Indeed. Klingons are effective warriors, but they're also smart and pragmatic. They're not going to get involved in a war that takes TWENTY TWO YEARS to win. Even for Klingons, that's not tenacity, that's desperation.
If it's within their territory then it is, by definition, a "conquered" civilization, else they couldn't have claimed that planet has part of their territory. Maybe they didn't MESS with them until recently, but being within Klingon borders means they are already within Klingon jurisdiction.
As to why the Klingons would suddenly see the need to send troops to beat up, occupy and brutalize the native population of a planet they already control... I suppose the warriors sometimes get bored.
That's EXACTLY what it means, since it's suggested the Federation are the Klingons' main regional rivals in the galaxy and would therefore be their top military priority (much as the Klingons seem to be the top priority for the Federation despite also obviously having other things to deal with elsewhere).
If the Klingons can't afford hostilities with their number one rival, they CERTAINLY won't be sparing a budget for numbers two through eight. Quite the opposite: they'd have pulled their troops off the Tzenkethi/Romulan/Whatever border to make sure they could afford to deal with the Federation.
Which is, again, besides the point. The Prime Directive isn't MEANT to govern the entire galaxy, it's meant to restrict the actions of Starfleet and protect the Federation from the temptation to take actions whose consequences it cannot properly predict but must be responsible for anyway.
It's like an alcoholic telling you that he doesn't drink and you responding "People all over the world drink!" You're clearly missing the point.
They totally would. Nothing would make them happier.
Yeah, that's just dumb. Crack is an addictive drug. Bad analogy. Interfering with other cultures is neither addictive nor is it a social decision.
According to the Federation but NOT according to everyone else. They clearly see benefits to it. Or at the very least, they're open to the possibility that it shouldn't be a black and white issue.
Countless other species would have respected Bajor's right to sovereignty too. But without the aid of a Prime Directive. You're conflating the PD with not being a massive dick. They're not the same thing. I'm confident that the removal of the PD would not result in the Federation therefore embracing a policy of invade and conquer.
Which again demonstrates that it's a worthless directive to the rest of the galaxy.
As far as the Federation are concerned, they apparently made the decision based on learning from past mistakes but were those mistakes due to inteference or due to stupidity and lack of experience with space travel and other cultures? I see no reason not to have a sensible policy regarding involvement in other cultures without being so black and white about it.
Still an extraordinarily dumb analogy.
We can play all day if you want.
How many people exercise? For any disadvantages it might bring (broken bones etc) they clearly see an obvious upside to it.
And so on and so forth.
Last edited:
WINNING would make them happier. And pretty much everything we've ever seen of the Klingons tells us that failing to achieve a clear victory for twenty two years is a delay of gratification they are definitely not capable of.
So why commit to the long-term effort if they had a choice? The most likely answer is, they DIDN'T.
Sure they like to win, but they also like to fight. Twenty years of war would suit them just fine. And they were winning, albeit slowly.
I have no idea what you are claiming here. You are completely misinterpreting 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. Are you seriously claiming that the Klingons were fighting a defensive war and Feds were the aggressors? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Then point to ANY other civilization that can rival the Federation's technology, military prowess and standard of living. Any other civilization both as old and as successful as the United Federation of Planets not only in securing its own borders but in preserving the dignity, freedom and happiness of all its citizens. Any one will do.
Do the Klingons? Do the Cardassians? Do the Romulans? Do the Ferengi? Do the Borg? Do the Breen?
In every case you find the same thing: habitual conquest and intervention comes at a price. The Cardassian people pay this price by being menaced with generation after generation of Bajoran and Maquis terrorism, with an oppressive fascist government ruled by a military junta. The Klingons pay this price with poor medical services, outdated technology, corruption, oligarchy, and a social order that strongly rewards violence and duplicity to a far greater degree than competence. The Romulans' entire population lives in fear of their government and spend their entire lives looking over their shoulder for the Tal'Shiar, a population which meets its a climactic and explosive end in 2387 during the Hobus event. The Breen seem to be pretty happy with things, but their SLAVES sure as hell aren't. And the Ferengi, interventionist as they are, are pretty much the weenies of the galaxy and have never really been a serious military power (though they seem to be a big economic one).
You can argue principles all you want, but you can't argue with results. The only other power in the galaxy that even comes CLOSE to the Federation is the Dominion, and they accomplish this by virtue of their soldiers not actually having lives and their subjects not having to contribute to the military at all except in tax revenue. OTOH, the Dominion continues to exist now ONLY because of the benevolence of a couple of Starfleet officers who went out of their way to prevent the extermination of the Founders, so that basically makes them the exception that proves the rule.
It's not MEANT for the rest of the galaxy.
No. It's based on the historical fact that one cannot and should not ever assume that a third party you cannot control will automatically behave the way you want them to, and recognition of the fact that both individuals and societies must be responsible only for themselves and their own choices.
That, by the way, is one of the reasons why an official request for help falls outside the scope of the Prime Directive and why Starfleet can and does render humanitarian aid when possible. It's why Kirk flash-freezing the supervolcano on Nibiru would NOT have been a violation of the Prime Directive had he been able to accomplish that without revealing the Enteprirse's presence to the natives. It's why successfully using the holodeck transplant refugees from Boraal II doesn't actually violate of the Prime Directive (although it almost DID when the holodeck started to malfunction).
The problem is, primitive societies aren't always in a position to make an informed choice about whether or not they are ready to open relations with other civilizations. Those who do not have a coherent concept of alien life wouldn't be able to make a rational choice AT ALL, and in those cases contact is best avoided. On the other hand there seem to be many primitive civilizations whose concept of "alien" is sufficiently well developed that the appearance of a starship off their favorite beach would be met with "Fancy ship. Must be foreigners. Wonder where they're from?"
It was an extraordinarily dumb SUGGESTION. Just because a billion people do a stupid thing doesn't make that thing any less stupid.
We can examine the proposition on its own merits, not on its popularity.
The Federation may have been the number one rival of the Klingon Empire. But it was also a power that would agree to a non-aggression pact. With such a pact, the empire could deploy mere token forces to police its border with the Federation.
Last edited:
I'm suggesting that the turning point described in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was exactly what sort of relationship the Klingons formed with the Federation when Qo'nos ran out of oxygen. It seems there were exactly two possibilities:
1) The Klingons finally decide to make a formal alliance with the Federation (stopping just short of actually becoming members) and the Federation quickly mobilized to help them save their planet. This formed the basis of the relationship that lasted for decades and was solid enough that they even were able to restore that friendship after being tricked into shooting at each other by the Dominion.
2) The Klingons tell the Federation where they can shove it and decide to go down fighting; they go on the rampage trying to conquer whatever territory they can because, fuck it, do or die! After twenty two years, with a combination of terrorism, hit and run tactics, ambush tactics and occasional fleet action they've finally managed to carve out a chunk of territory in what used to be Federation space and Starfleet hasn't been able to drive them out of it; they're fortifying that territory daily, and if Starfleet can't drive them out in the next six months, it's clear they never will.
This isn't a war between evenly matched powers, because evenly-matched powers don't waste two decades fighting a protracted and indecisive military conflict. It also isn't a war of Federation choice, because that's not the Federation's M.O.
So it's basically a war of Klingon survival, and in the YE timeline the Klingons seeking to survive under terms the Federation cannot accept. If, on the other hand, Garret had proven to the Klingons that Starfleet WOULD be willing to risk their own lives on behalf of Klingons, the alliance with the Federation suddenly seems like a less crazy idea.
Speak for yourself. I actually WATCHED Deep Space Nine.To be fair, none of us have witnessed an interstellar war.
@Crazy Eddie, you are intentionally misinterpreting 'YE'. It was clear that the war was about the survival of the Federation. Klingon survival was not in the question.
I agree. But then PD is to protect those civilisations and not the Federation. And logically UFP needs to use some means, were they diplomatic or military, to dissuade other powers from bothering those planets. And I think that's what they do.
That's not clear AT ALL. We don't know anything about the conflict except that forty billion people have died and that (according to what Picard tells Garret) it's almost over. Assuming Picard is telling Garret the truth, what we still don't know is what the Federation and the Klingons are fighting FOR. But it's not that hard to guess: Fifty years after Praxis, Qo'nos is out of oyxgen, so the Klingons are fighting for a homeworld or two, or three, or six. If Starfleet can't drive them off those planets, then they have to surrender and recognize the New Klingon Empire.
It's to protect the Federation too. Becoming the patron of all of those civilizations is an investment in time and resources the Federation cannot afford to make. Picking and choosing when and where to intervene and who deserves such patronage and who doesn't merely introduces further complications. Down the road, there's also the very strong possibility that one of the societies the Federation chooses to uplift either turns hostile or, through social revolution or regime change, turns its new technologies and state instruments against its own people. It is difficult if not impossible to reliably predict such things, and so as per the Prime Directive, they're better off just staying out of it.
They DO place some planets under their protection when it is possible and practical to do so. Elaas and Troyus were described as such, and IIRC so was Mintaka. The Prime Directive still applies to civilizations under their protection, but the protected status of those civilizations is an ENTIRELY separate issue.
It stands to reason that some of those protectorates are in systems the Federation hopes to claim for itself at some point, either because they are strategically located or because they have valuable natural resources (again, Elaas and its abundance of dilithium crystals). It also stands to reason that civilizations under that protection would be made AWARE of that status if it is judged they are advanced enough to know about it; this, primarily, so that those civilizations would be able to protest or reject that protection if they so chose. Bajor would fall under that category too, doubly so after the discovery of the wormhole.
But the decision to place Bajor under Federation protection still doesn't trump (or actually have anything to do with) the Prime Directive. The PD only governs how Starfleet interacts with non-Federation societies and governments, and actually it probably doesn't even apply to civilians. For that matter, it doesn't even apply to the FEDERATION COUNCIL, who can vote to interfere with anyone they want for any reason they like. The interesting thing is, if the Federation government took a vote and decided to send in troops to curb-stomp the Bajoran Nationalists, Starfleet is prohibited by law from participating in that action. The Council would have to hire mercenaries or a third party (the Maquis?) to accomplish that.
As a safeguard against Imperialism, that works out pretty nicely. "There's no rule against interfering in the affairs of other civilizations... you just can't use the military to do it."
"Its happening to America now" Crazy Eddie had a good point. Vietnam. Iraq. The Philippines. Any other intervention where you aren't wanted by the local population.
By the time Earth becomes part of the Federation, a number of Earth nations will have already learned this lesson the hard way.
By the time Earth becomes part of the Federation, a number of Earth nations will have already learned this lesson the hard way.
The main problem with the whole idea is that if you are going to interfere you have to interfere equally on all sides. If someone had vaccinated the Indian tribes against small pox, would the English been able to land in 1620? The land would have still been occupied. In 1943 Russia was against the ropes when the Vulcans first came around. What if they were given impulse powered aircraft? The Prime Directive, for good or bad, and by extension the TPD has to be applied to all less advanced cultures.
Similar threads
