The Federation Prime Directive; Non Interfere Policy

[Crazy Eddie]

The seventy years between Khitomer and the beginning of TNG is a long time.

Twenty five years isn't. As Bashir says in "Way of the Warrior,"
"Two decades of peace with the Klingons and it all comes down to this."

Two decades puts the date almost exactly 50 years after Praxis, which is pretty much exactly when Spock predicted their supply of oxygen was going to run out. Which means they didn't get help from the Federation BEFORE then, which basically means the only reason the Klingons still exist as an "empire" and not a gaggle of planetless nomads is because the Federation saved their asses.

It's extremely unlikely they still went on with their conquests after TUC, since that would pretty much negate the ENTIRE PREMISE of that movie. If the Klingons were still capable of that, Gorkon's peace overtures would be completely absurd; there'd be no REASON to talk peace with the Federation since the Empire is still dong just fine and can go and conquer all it likes.

OTOH, right around the time Qonos was running out of oxygen we had the Romulans started attacking Klingon colonies (most notably Narendra III and Khitomer) and an inconclusive eighteen year long war with the Cardassians. It's no coincidence that the Klingons became friends with the Federation right AFTER that and gave up conquest as a way of life until "War of the Warrior."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I doubt that is true. Especially after the song and dance about "internal matters of the Empire" we heard about in "Redemption". Pretty sure they could do whatever they wanted inside their own territory....

Yes, INSIDE their own borders. Which pretty much rules out "conquest" doesn't it?

 

[BillJ]

Yes, INSIDE their own borders. Which pretty much rules out "conquest" doesn't it?

Bajor was inside the recognized borders of the Cardassian Empire. Pretty sure they felt they were conquered when Cardassia came in and took over.

And the fact of the matter is that Klingons would still need resources to run their Empire and protect their territory. Even more so with the destruction of Praxis.

 

[BillJ]

Just because the Klingons were at a state of peace with the Federation, it doesn't mean they didn't expand their borders in other directions.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Bajor was inside the recognized borders of the Cardassian Empire...

By Bajor's own declaration, sixty years ago, when the Cardassians annexed their planet. Even the BAJORANS acknowledged that, which is why they invariably declare their struggle as a the fight for "Bajoran independence." Bajor was a COLONY of Cardassia.

If your point is the Klingons conquered Krios some time before they became allies of the Federation, that's entirely possible. If your point is Krios wasn't actually a Klingon colony but some planet they were in the process of conquering... that would be strange.

Pretty sure they felt they were conquered when Cardassia came in and took over.

Actually, they felt they were getting a pretty good deal, at least that's how the Bajorans tell it. Things quickly turned sour and the Bajorans decided to break away.

And the fact of the matter is that Klingons would still need resources to run their Empire and protect their territory. Even more so with the destruction of Praxis.

Yes, resources which they could no longer spend on a military capable of conquest and/or proactive intervention against insurrection and political change. They'd have to cede territories, consolidate their resources, hold on to what they could still defend, pick and choose their battles.

To the Federation, that's Standard Procedure. They don't HAVE to draw down their forces in a crisis because Starfleet is exactly the size it needs to be to defend their borders, patrol regional hot spots and occasionally dish out some humanitarian aid to their friendly neighbors. Every once in a while they can spare a few ships for some limited involvement in a foreign dispute (e.g. exposing the Romulans involvement with Duras) and they're effective enough for that too. The Federation doesn't expand through conquest, but through peacefully recruiting new members who CHOOSE to join them of their own free will, and they expand to unclaimed territories through exploration and civilian colonization.

This makes the Federation's approach sustainable in every way the Klingon approach wasn't. Their defense planning isn't as sensitive to crisis points or sudden reversals, AND they still manage to maintain a very respectable civilian infrastructure that can support the fleet. Even the Cardassians couldn't make that claim, which is why they were effectively curb-stomped by the Klingons after "Way of the Warrior."

 

[BillJ]

This makes the Federation's approach sustainable in every way the Klingon approach wasn't.

Umm... the Klingon Empire was around for quite a while before the Feds were on the scene and they seemed quite sustainable. Plus, we have no idea if the Federation would have buckled or not if they had lost one of their key energy production facilities that contaminated one of their main homeworlds. Because the Federation never had to face that kind of crisis.

You make a lot of leaps with little to no evidence from the actual shows.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Just because the Klingons were at a state of peace with the Federation, it doesn't mean they didn't expand their borders in other directions.

Yes it does.

WORF: The issue is not if there are any Founders on Cardassia. There are many Klingons who say we have been at peace too long, that the Empire must expand in order to survive. Fear of the Dominion has given my people an excuse to do what they were born to do. To fight and to conquer.
SISKO: If they're so eager to fight, who's to say they'll stop with the Cardassians.
KIRA: Their next target could be anyone. Even the Federation.
DAX: If I were you, I'd be more worried about Bajor. Think about it. What good would it do for the Klingons to defeat Cardassia, if they don't control the wormhole?
WORF: Agreed. If my people return to the old ways, no one will be safe.

Worf is essentially saying this is the first time the Klingons have tried to expand outside of their borders in AT LEAST the past twenty years. Probably much longer than that, considering Korris and his three buddies went on the lam with the intention of doing EXACTLY this and Empire sent a battlecruiser to arrest them.

 

[BillJ]

Worf is essentially saying this is the first time the Klingons have tried to expand outside of their borders in AT LEAST the past twenty years. Probably much longer than that, considering Korris and his three buddies went on the lam with the intention of doing EXACTLY this and Empire sent a battlecruiser to arrest them.

You still have a fifty year gap there.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Umm... the Klingon Empire was around for quite a while before the Feds were on the scene and they seemed quite sustainable.

By the 22nd century, they were already on the downtick:

ARCHER: How many cases have you won?
KOLOS: Oh, I'm not sure. Over two hundred. But that was a long time ago, when the tribunal was a forum for the truth and not a tool for the warrior class.
ARCHER: There are other classes?
KOLOS: You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?
ARCHER: I guess I did.
KOLOS: My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honour in victory, any victory. What honour is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society not so long ago, when honour was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.

Klingon imperialism is a relatively recent innovation in Kolos' lifetime. The time we see them in the 22nd century is basically the height of their Empire. That pretty nicely explains how in the 23rd century they're barely on par with the Federation despite being technology superior in the previous century. In fact, it appears the Klingons made no measurable technological or social progress whatsoever between 2151 and 2293. That's "sustainability" in the same way that homelessness is a long-term solution to the rent being too high.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You still have a fifty year gap there.

And I still have Gorkon's peace initiative, which EXPLICITLY suggests they are, at this point, no longer capable of military expansion or even of seriously defending themselves against the Federation. When don't know when or IF that actually changed; we do know that around the time those conditions were expected to reach maximum shitstorm, the Klingons officially became Federation allies.

And again, this is in the context of a discussion about the utility of the Prime Directive in contrast with military interventionism and imperialism. You're not seriously suggesting that the KLINGON approach to interstellar politics is the more effective strategy?

 

[hux]

Did you not read ANYTHING that I just wrote?

Did you just beat your wife with a rusty stick? I read what you wrote. It was nonsense. If getting involved in other peoples business always resulted in a negative, they would stop doing it. Clearly there are some positives to be found.

Tell that to Major Kira. To her, and many others like her, the ONLY good thing the Federation had going for it was that the Federation respected Bajor's sovereignty and its right of self-rule: the fact that they would leave if the Bajorans government wanted them to. Without that very important characteristic they would have been just another foreign imperialist, and the Bajorans would have treated them EXACTLY the same way they treated the Cardassians: with violence, with terrorism, with war.

Yes, the Bajorans DEFINITELY gave a shit. They didn't want aliens running their planet, and they still don't. They accepted Starfleet because Starfleet promised that Bajor would be governed by Bajorans even if it DID join the Federation. Marching in to squash one faction or another in a civil war would have made that promise as empty as Gul Dukat's smile.

I'm tempted to ask if you read anything I wrote. So you're saying that Kira took comfort when being occupied by the Cardassians by reminding herself that the Federation wouldn't do that sort of thing? Yeah, I'm pretty sure she didn't give a shit. The point is, Bajor was STILL conquered and occupied because most space faring species did not have a PD equivalent therefore highlighting that the Federation PD is pretty meaningless to the rest of the galaxy.

You are essentially suggesting that the Federation should abandon the Prime Directive in favor of a more aggressive imperialist stance; you only have 3000 years of recorded history and the entire fictional history of Star Trek telling you that this isn't a good idea.

No, I'm really not. I'm suggesting that if only one major player has such a directive then that directive will have almost no impact on the galaxy at all. If every time the Federation says "let's not get involved " another power comes along and says "yeah, but we will" then you've achieved nothing in the long term other than your own misplaced sense of moral superiority. I'm not arguing in favour of abandoning the PD; I'm simply pointing out that it does not have any meaningful impact in a galaxy where only a small group of people subscribe to it.

Case in point: the Klingons used to do this ALL THE TIME.

How'd that work out for them?

Irrelevant. How many others continue to do it? How many species do not have a PD? For any disadvantages it might bring, they clearly also see an obvious upside to it otherwise they would have stopped doing it. And how many of these species have been out in space a lot longer than the Federation? They're not space noobs.

The Prime Directive is only effective if everyone signs up to it. If they don't, it's just a meaningless gesture. It's like Fiji telling Iraq "hey, everyone else is bombing the shit out of you but we're not." That might make the people of Fiji feel good about themselves (but it really shouldn't) but I'm pretty sure the people of Iraq would consider the gesture... pretty worthless.

 

[Longinus]

@Crazy Eddie, you are overestimating the damage Praxis incident did to the Klingon Empire (and luckily to the Federation, so did the Klingons!) In 'Yeasterday's Enterprise' we get to see what would have happened had the peace not been achieved: Federation defeat. Never underestimate a Klingon.

 

[T'Girl]

Yes, INSIDE their own borders. Which pretty much rules out "conquest" doesn't it?

No it doesn't, if a unconquered civilization is within Klingon claimed territory, and the Klingon then conquer it, that would be conquest within their claimed territory.

And I still have Gorkon's peace initiative, which EXPLICITLY suggests they are, at this point, no longer capable of military expansion or even of seriously defending themselves against the Federation.

Not quite. The Klingons needed to transfer assets away from their "unremitting hostility" toward the Federation to deal with the consequence of the Praxis disaster. This doesn't automatically mean that Klingon actions against civilizations other than the Federation's would also come to a stop.

you've achieved nothing in the long term other than your own misplaced sense of moral superiority

The PD is at it's core a law or rule about how the Starfleet interacts with non-Starfleet, especially "primative" civilizations. A "misplaced sense of moral superiority" is probably one of the reasons the PD was created in the first place.

The Prime Directive is only effective if everyone signs up to it.

How would this happen? The Federation might advocate it diplomatically, be in a position to impose the PD on some others with interstellar abilities through military or economic means, even send starships to blockade planets.

But outside of the Federation's reach it's powerless, the majority of the people in the galaxy with interstellar travel have (most likely) never even heard of the Federation, much less their charming PD.

†

 

[Longinus]

No it doesn't, if a unconquered civilization is within Klingon claimed territory, and the Klingon then conquer it, that would be conquest within their claimed territory.

How would this happen? The Federation might advocate it diplomatically, be in a position to impose the PD on some others with interstellar abilities through military or economic means, even send starships to blockade planets.

I do think that the great powers of Alpha and Beta quadrant have spheres of influence that are not part of their de jure territory, but nevertheless are generally considered to be their business. I'm sure Federation has loads of worlds under its protection, many times completely unbeknownst to the primitive inhabitants of said worlds.

 

[Steve Willis]

Hello all! My name is Steve and this is my first post on the BBS.
In my opinion, the Prime Directive is a must for any technologically advanced civilization to have. Could you imagine what may have happened had an advanced civilization that did not know the situation in the American Old West given energy weapons to native Americans?
It isn't that interfering with other, less advanced, civilizations is a bad idea. Interference with said civilizations could have bad results.

 

[T'Girl]

I'm sure Federation has loads of worlds under its protection

But simply being within the Federation's outer boundaries (claimed territory) wouldn't make the indigenous people/civilization on those worlds the rightful property of the Federation. My previous point was if the Federation conquered a people who were within their borders, that would still be conquest, even though the action took place within those borders.

Separately. If the Federation could use it's authority and power to protect a indigenous people from outside contact, okay. But beyond the Federation's ability to do this, the Federation has no say in the matter.

Could you imagine what may have happened had an advanced civilization that did not know the situation in the American Old West given energy weapons to native Americans?

Or Nazi Germany in early 1945, being attacked from all sides by multiple powerful enemies. Obviously they need help, in the form of energy weapons.

†

 

[BillJ]

Could you imagine what may have happened had an advanced civilization that did not know the situation in the American Old West given energy weapons to native Americans?

They would've been able to protect themselves from the advancing white horde? Not sure Native Americans would've had a problem with that.

The major problem with the Prime Directive is that you set in motion a possible violation the moment you swing into orbit. That and you are exploiting a native population without its knowledge.

 

[Timo]

Twenty five years isn't. As Bashir says in "Way of the Warrior,"
"Two decades of peace with the Klingons and it all comes down to this."

But that's just as likely to be peace between the Klingons and the Cardassians, because that is what was broken by the events Bashir is witnessing...

As far as Bashir knows, peace between the Klingons and the UFP is still unviolated. Indeed, Gowron only makes the first moves of aggression at the end of this episode, and declares war no sooner than the next season.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SWHouston]

Another example of what I thought to be interfering (violation of PD) was...
When people (previous Fed areas inhabitants) move outside Fed jurisdiction. Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode's, but one was where the old couple stayed on a planet which was destroyed by an aggressive race.
Those guys decided to separate themselves from Fed authority, and still they were forced to move. And there have been other instances where the Fed has forced their will in a similar way, upon a group.
If I'd been that Doud, I'd kicked Picard's butt back to Fed space, and convinced him to leave well enough alone.

 

[T'Girl]

Not sure Native Americans would've had a problem with that.

Unless the weapons were distributed evenly between all the Native Americans, the surrounding (and distant) tribes who didn't get the weapons would sure as hell have a problem with that.

Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode's

You're mixing together two episodes.

In the case of the colonists who Picard was order to move, my impression is that they were outside the Federation's borders. They basically moved into a warzone of contested territory inbetween the Fedration and the Cardassian union, both of whom wanted to acquire it. After the Federation and the Union divided it up, they agreed to remove colonists from the other territory.

Now strictly speaking did the Federation have the legal right to do this ... probably not.

But they were willing to illegally drag the colonists out in order to accomplish peace. In the case of the colonist that Picard was supposed to drag out, they asked (and the Cardassians agreed) to be allowed to stay on a Cardassian planet.

†