The Federation and Starfleet

[telerites]

Okay I've watched TOS since the early 1970s and wish I had a nickel for every rewatch of the episodes. I continue to learn new things that others I'm sure think make me a noob. I just finished researching "The Mark of Gideon" and had not given it any thought thinking Starfleet and the Federation were one and same, just referred to differently.

It struck me I am still a noob when I paid attention to this line

"ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: I sympathize deeply, but Starfleet cannot override Federation directives in this matter."

Okay so now I understand Starfllet is the exploration and I'm assuming defensive force of the Federation. So school me on what else I should about the Federation and or Starfleet. Such things as Are there other academies besides Starfleet Academy that one can enroll?, How divisions are there?, Is there a governing body?, What percentage of the Federation does Starfleet account for?

Jump in and help me. Thanks.

 

[Ithekro]

Starfleet, like a military today, has its codes of conduct and policies. They are not always the same of the country's policies, in this case, the Federation. Starfleet captains are given a wide latitude in policy making for the Federation and Starfleet due to them being out of direct contact and needed to resolve situations on the spot. However, Starfleet is subordinate to the Federation, and when the Federation is in contact with a Starfleet starship and the planet they are orbiting, the Federation has the final say in the matter of policy.

In the late 1960s, there were several incidents, conflicts, and wars were what would normally be standard military procedures were overridden by national policy and the civilian government many thousands of kilometers away. The final say if the politicians and civilians of the United Federation of Planets. Starfleet is not a government. It is an institution of a government.

 

[Albertese]

The Federation = the government

Starfleet = the military (essentially)

 

[BillJ]

The Federation = the government

Starfleet = the military (essentially)

Yup. Pretty cut and dry.

 

[T'Girl]

"ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: I sympathize deeply, but Starfleet cannot override Federation directives in this matter."

The subsequent exchange between the Admiral and Spock makes clear that Spock did not make his case (to search for Kirk) to the Admiral, Starfleet or the Federation's governing body.

I don't think it was a matter of Starfleet never overriding Federation directives, but more they didn't have sufficient cause to do so in this instant, with the information available.

The Federation wasn't endangered, the starship wasn't being threatened, there was no indication that the Gidean's knew where Kirk was (they did), or that Kirk was even still alive.

It might have been a transporter accident.

Starfleet simply needed more before telling the Federation Council to politely go screw themselves.

 

[telerites]

"ADMIRAL [on viewscreen]: I sympathize deeply, but Starfleet cannot override Federation directives in this matter."

The subsequent exchange between the Admiral and Spock makes clear that Spock did not make his case (to search for Kirk) to the Admiral, Starfleet or the Federation's governing body.

I don't think it was a matter of Starfleet never overriding Federation directives, but more they didn't have sufficient cause to do so in this instant, with the information available.

The Federation wasn't endangered, the starship wasn't being threatened, there was no indication that the Gidean's knew where Kirk was (they did), or that Kirk was even still alive.

It might have been a transporter accident.

Starfleet simply needed more before telling the Federation Council to politely go screw themselves.

So could they do this and if so, what are the repercussions, if any, of overriding a Federation mandate?

 

[Phantom]

^At the very least, a hearing (like in ST IV). In real life, even if justified, you buck your chain of command and your career is over. You'll be out of the service.

 

[T'Girl]

There's a great line in the movie "In the Line of Fire," where a Admiral set about ignoring orders to stand down, and instead he orders a rescue mission of a downed pilot behind enemy lines.

Officer "This could end our career."

Admiral "So be it."

 

[Disco]

Starfleet as a military; my heart screams no but my head says yes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Starfleet simply needed more before telling the Federation Council to politely go screw themselves.

Excuse me?

There is no way Starfleet could, or would, ever do that. Any Starfleet officer who pulled a stunt like that would quickly find themselves without a job. You don't seriously think that Starfleet can just do whatever it wants, can you? That's not how the Federation works, not by a long shot.

Starfleet is subordinate to the Federation government in all things. It not only DOES work like that, it MUST work like that. Anything else would basically be a military dictatorship. (Just like Admiral Leyton wanted.)

Are there other academies besides Starfleet Academy that one can enroll?, How divisions are there?

If you mean, does the Federation have any military force other than Starfleet? We don't know of one. Starfleet is basically the entire Federation military.

(There is a Federation Naval Patrol, but we know almost nothing about it. I'm guessing that it is like the United States Coast Guard, but that's pure conjecture.)

Is there a governing body?

The inner workings of Federation government aren't really explored a lot onscreen. In certain novels, such as Articles of the Federation, there's a lot more detail.

About all we know from the shows and movies themselves is that the Federation is headed by a President, the legislature is the Federation Council, and there is also a Federation Supreme Court. So it's not *too* terribly dissimilar from the US, for example.

As for Starfleet: It is basically the Navy in space. (It even has its own ground force, but that's still Starfleet. According to the Operation Retrieve briefing in ST VI, it is called the Starfleet Marine Corps.)

 

[section31agent]

Starfleet simply needed more before telling the Federation Council to politely go screw themselves.

So could they do this and if so, what are the repercussions, if any, of overriding a Federation mandate?

Kinda the same repercussions of telling your boss to go fuck himself. A thought that has crossed my mind many times. But unforunately I haven't been able to pick the right lottery numbers to make that happen

 

[Timo]

(There is a Federation Naval Patrol, but we know almost nothing about it. I'm guessing that it is like the United States Coast Guard, but that's pure conjecture.)

The one thing we know about it is that it operates what Tom Paris calls "ancient sailing ships". Yes, the USCG has its share of those, but would any real 24th century equivalent have them? Or would it rather have "ancient gas turbine hydrofoils" or the like for the training of the would-be sailors in the basic arts of navigation in a high-workload, high-nostalgia environment?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Excuse me?

Essentially this is what Spock did, "you told me not to, and I'm going to do it anyway."

Spock (my interpretation) was protected to a large degree because it turns out that he was right, the Gidean's were holding Kirk against his will.

Spock employed initiative, which is what a good military officer is supposed to do. He was the person on the scene.

One of Starfleet's jobs (imho) is to protect the Federation. I actually do think that Starfleet's leadership would disregard Federation Council directives in pursuit of that protection, if in a situation where those directives simply don't work.

If it cost them their position and results in imprisonment "so be it."

Consider the end of the episode The Menagerie, Commodore Mendez (apparently independently) suspended General Order Seven. My take is that this order was a big thing, it carried the possibility of a death sentence, and the Commodore of a Starbase determined that it simply didn't work.

You honestly think there's a Federation Council directive that says a commander of a space station is allowed to independently decide to murder a member of the Romulan government?

By all appearances, Spock suffered no legal or professional repercussions stemming from his actions, I conjecture a possibility that the Admiral he spoke to previously decided that Starfleet would override Federation directives in this matter.

Because more information became available, the Federation's governing apparatus could (politely of course) go screw themselves.

There's a great line in the movie "In the Line of Fire ..."

My bad, the movie was "Behind Enemy Lines."

 

[Franklin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the president of the Federation is also the American equivalent of "commander in chief" of Starfleet. After all, Kirk faced the President of the Federation in the Federation Council Chamber when he was charged and disciplined in TVH, not high officers of Starfleet in a Starfleet setting. That wouldn't happen exactly that way anywhere today, but I think it speaks to the Starfleet-Federation pecking order in the 23rd century. Having a civilian democratically elected representative of the people in final control of the military (or military part of Starfleet) would be logical in a progressive democratic society in the 23rd century (just as it is now).

Also, although the scene was cut, in TUC, Starfleet runs its plan to rescue Kirk and McCoy by the Federation president for his approval.

Of course, Pike described Starfleet best in ST09: it is a peace-keeping and humanitarian armada.

 

[Timo]

Well, actually Pike said that the FEDERATION was that "armada". But that was in a bar, late at night. The man was probably drunk as a skunk, having dismissed his cadets and facing down just the equally stoned wunderkind Jim Kirk...

Spock (my interpretation) was protected to a large degree because it turns out that he was right, the Gidean's were holding Kirk against his will.

One wonders if Spock didn't just screw up something big there. We are told that the Federation wants contact with Gideon for completely unknown reasons - that is, unknown to the audience and the Starfleet heroes. The Gideonites have been in negotiations with the UFP - and somehow they have gained access to Kirk's medical history and the exact blueprints of the Enterprise... Moreover, only one man of Kirk's 430 crew had the right sort of disease, and Kirk probably was the only starship captain with that disease! It almost looks as if Starfleet agreed with Gideon to send the right man for the job, and then to help the Gideonites make use of that man in the one and only way acceptable for their weird local religion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Well, actually Pike said that the FEDERATION was that "armada". But that was in a bar, late at night. The man was probably drunk as a skunk, having dismissed his cadets and facing down just the equally stoned wunderkind Jim Kirk...

Spock (my interpretation) was protected to a large degree because it turns out that he was right, the Gidean's were holding Kirk against his will.

One wonders if Spock didn't just screw up something big there. We are told that the Federation wants contact with Gideon for completely unknown reasons - that is, unknown to the audience and the Starfleet heroes. The Gideonites have been in negotiations with the UFP - and somehow they have gained access to Kirk's medical history and the exact blueprints of the Enterprise... Moreover, only one man of Kirk's 430 crew had the right sort of disease, and Kirk probably was the only starship captain with that disease! It almost looks as if Starfleet agreed with Gideon to send the right man for the job, and then to help the Gideonites make use of that man in the one and only way acceptable for their weird local religion.

Timo Saloniemi

I started a thread about this very subject late last year...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=258112&highlight=mark+gideon

 

[horatio83]

I just finished researching "The Mark of Gideon" and had not given it any thought thinking Starfleet and the Federation were one and same, just referred to differently.

The UFP is the entire political entity whereas Starfleet is just (part of) the executive.
In INS this became perhaps most obvious because the Federation Council has not just been mentioned en passant but was a key player in the whole mess and because it was made clear that, unsurprisingly, Starfleet has to follow the laws the parliament passes (albeit in this instance it was problematic as the first decision of the parliament violated the Prime Directive and was thus unconstitutional).

 

[BillJ]

I just finished researching "The Mark of Gideon" and had not given it any thought thinking Starfleet and the Federation were one and same, just referred to differently.

The UFP is the entire political entity whereas Starfleet is just (part of) the executive.
In INS this became perhaps most obvious because the Federation Council has not just been mentioned en passant but was a key player in the whole mess and because it was made clear that, unsurprisingly, Starfleet has to follow the laws the parliament passes (albeit in this instance it was problematic as the first decision of the parliament violated the Prime Directive and was thus unconstitutional).

How is passing a law that overturns a military rule unconstitutional?

 

[Timo]

...Moreover, even if the Prime Directive were a civilian law, and Starfleet just had a General Order 1 that stated "Always obey the Prime Directive, or else!", what would be unconstitutional about the "parliament" (actually, more like the senate here) deciding to waive the Prime Directive? As far as we know, it's just a regular law, and parliaments exist in order to break laws (and to put better ones together).

Even if the PD were a constitutional law, those can be rewritten as well - it just takes slightly more resolve and consensus among the lawmakers. And ST:INS indicated that the consensus was there among those who decide, even if Picard personally disagreed.

But yes, the PD seems to concern Starfleet and Starfleet only. It explicitly has no effect on the castaways of SS Odin in "Angel One", the stated reason being they are not the crew of a starship but of another category of vessel. The only civilian ever hit by that particular book was Captain Merrick in "Bread and Circuses", and his status as a civilian is somewhat uncertain.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Franklin: Yes, the President of the Federation IS the commander in chief of Starfleet. Jaresh-Inyo said so in the Homefront/Paradise Lost storyline.