The Eternal Question: TNG or DS9

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Spirit of 73, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Regardless of what the writers think, I personally cannot support what Sisko does. That's one thing that I like about DS9 and some of later TNG was that the shows became less preachy and allow the audience to come to their own conclusions.

    And that makes it all the more engaging.
     
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  2. Spirit of 73

    Spirit of 73 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Interesting. I would rank them thusly, so far:

    TNG:
    Season 1: 7 good, 11 meh, 7 awful
    Season 2: 9 good, 9 meh, 4 awful
    Season 3: 16 good, 9 meh, 1 awful
    Season 4: 19 good, 6 meh, 1 awful
    Season 5: 18 good, 6 meh, 2 awful
    Season 6: 18 good, 6 meh, 2 awful
    Season 7: 12 good, 10 meh, 3 awful

    Total: 99 good, 57 meh, 20 awful
    Total After Five Seasons: 69 good, 41 meh, 15 awful

    DS9:

    Season1: 6 good, 11 meh, 2 awful
    Season 2: 13 good, 13 meh, 0 awful
    Season 3: 12 good, 12 meh, 2 awful
    Season 4: 18 good, 7 meh, 0 awful
    Season 5: 17 good, 7 meh, 2 awful

    Total after Five Season: 66 good, 50 meh, 6 awful

    By this reckoning, I have DS9 ahead, too, but that's definitely not how I feel about the series. I like my head to head match ups better, because then good is broken down into decent, good, really good and outstanding and so on. DS9 did not have many bad episodes at all, and its percentage of good episodes is pretty much the same as TNG's through five seasons, but whereas TNG had 9 outstanding episodes after five seasons, DS9 had one. The head to head match ups, I think, are a better indicator.
     
  3. Spirit of 73

    Spirit of 73 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But Dax's reaction to Sisco is a clear indication that the writers still consider him, and still expect us to consider him, to be a good guy. That's hard to do after what he did. I can enjoy Silence of the Lambs because Hannibal Lector and Wild Bill are never portrayed as anything other than what they are. In DS9 - and my understanding is that this is going to get even worse with In the Pale Moonlight - Hannibal Lector has now become some sort of a hero.

    Yes, it's an exaggeration to call Sisco Hannibal Lector, but the basic idea is the same: a character should not behave in that fashion and still be treated by the writers and the camera and the other characters as some sort of hero.
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I see the point. I respectfully disagree.
     
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  5. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It is still preachy, it still has a viewpoint. That viewpoint just is 'hard men making hard choices' and 'ends justify means' bullshit.
     
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  6. Farscape One

    Farscape One Commodore Commodore

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    Eddington had enough of the poison to destroy EVERY Cardassian colony in the DMZ. Plus, he disabled the Malinche. Who knows how many people he actually killed on that ship.

    I think Sisko did the only thing that would bring some sense of balance in that area.

    It's one thing to defend your homes, which is what the Maquis were all about at first. Then they got on the offensive. They became full blown terrorists. You don't get to poison a Cardassian colony that has nothing to do with your home, disable TWO Starfleet ships, threaten to clear out every Cardassian colony in the DMZ and still get to be called a 'Freedom Fighter'. You're a terrorist.

    And before someone uses the Bajoran Resistance as a comparison, the Cardassians INVADED their system and used their people as slaves. Bajorans were fighting for their freedom.
     
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  7. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Since we're talking seasons...

    TNG gets better the first three years. The 1st has too many smiles, too much music, especially early in the run. They do some dark plots, but it always felt like the show wasn't serious enough, where it needed to be.

    The aesthetics are better, the music gone, in season 2. The camera work is more subdued. While the season has some awful plots, due to the writer's strike, two episodes examine what this show becomes--Q Who and The Measure of a Man.

    Three is the show--creative, thoughtful, and deeply personal. Season 4 and 5 are the meat of show, and my personal favorite. Picard and the Borg. Data's emotion chip. Worf and his son, a return to honor. O'Brien and Cardassians. Dr. Beverly and a Trill lover. Ensign Ro and the Bajorans. Spock and Picard. Wesley and the Academy.

    More than the character moments, there are terrific standalone episodes of exploration. Clues involves Data keeping things from the crew and it turns out he is acting on Picard's orders because of xenophobes. The Malcorians are about to make first contact before Riker is attacked in their capital. A charlatan plays the Devil in a society where a deal with the devil, generations ago, gave them peace and prosperity. There are the people trying to communicate, but disrupting REM sleep, instead, driving the crew insane. There's the explorer turning Barclay into a genius, confident because he needs to know how we would respond in the Nth Degree. Picard and the moral conundrums of Old age, the Salem Witch trials, and harming a space creature that thinks the Enterprise is its mother. Or aiding Gowron in a Civil War.

    Just some amazing work that has set the course for Trek since then. DS9 is getting a separate post. :)
     
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  8. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It is similar on DS9. Season 1 had three standout episodes--The Emissary, Duet, and In Hands of the Prophets. The show often is dark, for no reason. The characters become shades of gray, but DS9 in its first season, is just a negative Trek.

    Season 2 builds the characters we know while season 3 establishes the central conflicts, with and within, the Dominion.

    Season 4 is the Cold War with the Dominion. The fear and terror of the antagonists examines what the powers and decision makers would do with this threat.

    Season five is a cooling of this conflict and it gives time for the DS9 characters to go through some growth. Negotiations between The Dominion and the Alpha Quadrant powers leads to Sisko starting a war, a jarring turn for a Trek series.

    The war did not disappoint. Losing command of DS9, the war arc of six episodes to retake the station are the best of the series. Just writing about it makes me long to watch it.

    As good as the war was in season six of the show, season seven is a hodgepodge of ideas that showed why the show should've ended it sooner, or gone off the air. Like season 1, there are notable exceptions. But, the overt way the war is handled, is a disappointment. While seasons six and seven of TNG were worse, season seven of DS9 just seems like wasted potential.

    4 and 6 have very few bad stories. And they remain my favorite.
     
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  9. Spirit of 73

    Spirit of 73 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    One big problem with this is that it is simply unrealistic. In real life, escalation leads to more escalation. Not only did Sisco act like a terrorist - any excuse you can make for him can just as easily apply to Eddington - but it worked and brought a quick resolution to things. Is there any episode in human history that lends any credence to this whatsoever?
     
  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    With due respect, I think DS9 presents it in a different way than TNG. TNG came across as smug, arrogant and holier-than-thou, especially earlier on. They looked down upon 20th-century humans and regarded them as nearly irredeemable.

    While DS9 had its preachy moments (especially from Worf at times, as well as Sisko) I never came away with the feeling that I had to agree with them or else.

    So, yes, it very well could be "tough men making tough decisions" but I can at least relate to them without feeling like I was forced to agree.
     
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  11. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    B E N J A M I N
    S I S _ O


    I'd like to buy a K, please.
     
  12. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    I re-watched both recently. I prefer DS9 in pretty much every respect.

    TNG at its best is wonderful, but its average episodes don't interest me at all. I wound up skipping nearly two thirds and even had to abandon some part-way because they were so much worse than I remembered (Rascals is atrocious!).

    Part of it is that I like the DS9 characters and cast much more - it makes average episodes much more watchable when the interactions are still enjoyable. DS9 also felt much less formulaic and predictable.
     
  13. Spirit of 73

    Spirit of 73 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Rascals is awful, but I'm surprised you find two thirds of TNG unwatchable.
     
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  14. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    Never said I did. Most of the skipped ones I just wasn't interested in re-watching.

    I'd describe very little of Trek as "unwatchable", but that doesn't mean that I would choose to spend my time re-watching things I don't find particularly entertaining.
     
  15. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I can see that. TOS is far and away my favorite Trek series, but if I'm in a mood to watch TOS, I'm not going to feel compelled to rewatch "Miri" or "The Alternative Factor" just because. There are too many better Trek episodes to put on instead.
     
  16. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Yes, but then there is the tendency to rewatch certain episodes to the point where they become unwatchable. These days I prefer either finding alternatives to rewatching (such as finishing VGR) or going through an entire show once a decade or so, and even then if there is some kind of an underlying motivation (such as TOS-R or TNG in HD).
     
  17. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree.

    I have been gradually FORCING myself to re-watch TNG because I now have all seven seasons on BR disk, and feel obligated. I look at the menu of each disk in S6, which is where I'm at, and it's literally (maybe) one out of every four episodes that I'm actually interested in watching.

    For every Chain of Command or Tapestry, there's seemingly three Rascals, Aquiel, Man of The People, Realm of Fear, etc. Frigging dull and uninspired. It's maddening.
     
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  18. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I confess I'm not really into rewatching entires series from start to finish. If I want to rewatch a favorite ep, I'll rewatch a favorite ep, but I'm not going to embark on a systemic attempt to rewatch an entire series from start to finish, be it STAR TREK or XENA or anything else. I know TOS by heart because those original 79 eps were rerun endlessly in syndication the whole time I was growing up, but I've never actually rewatched any of the latter-day shows in their entirety.

    Same with the movies, actually. I've watched Khan and the whales more times than I can count, but I can go decades without watching TMP and have only watched most of the TNG movies once.

    P.S. Don't get me wrong. I watched all of the later series religiously during their original runs, and still revisit some episodes from time to time, but I'm probably never going to sit down and watch any of them all the way through again. There's too many new shows to watch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  19. eschaton

    eschaton Commodore Commodore

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    Watching TOS's first season at least in production order is interesting because you can see how they were slowly retooling the series from its early experimental phase to what we consider "classic TOS" by the back end of the season. They were clearly making up canon on the fly, for example, which is why Spock wasn't defined as half Vulcan until The Carbonite Maneuver, Starfleet wasn't mentioned until The Menagerie, and the Federation isn't referenced until Arena. Also, early TOS experimented with different formats, trying an ensemble format at times (Charlie X) and a focus on Kirk/a guest star (Dagger of the Mind) before Gene Coon realized the magic in the Kirk/Spock/McCoy interactions. For that reason, I'll even watch the bad episodes in the first season. I'll never watch the bad ones in the second, and especially the third, season again however.
     
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  20. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Earlier I liked TNG more than DS9.

    Now I love TNG and I'm bored with DS9.

    Out of these two TNG wins, easily.

    There is no competition.
     
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