The Enterprise That Wasn't

[Arpy]

^ I try not to overthink it. I mean, how dumb and arrogant would we need to be not to, after three hundred years, still call Vulcans by our name for them, not theirs? Or the Romulans? Or the Delta-ns or Beta-zed-s, or the Orion’s? On and on... I mean, we don’t even have their name for themselves that we don’t use, only ours.

I’m more comfortable not thinking about it than pulling an ENT and suggesting that “Romulan” is their name for themselves.

But then I was comfortable without Worf having to address why he looked different from other Klingons in “Trials and Tribble-ations” too. That breaking for the fourth wall was more disturbing than the production issues massaging we all do for ourselves.

 

[Saul]

A little late to the discussion. I love the design, I could easily see it as a pre-Enterprise coming before NX. There is some concept art of what might possibly becoming real Space ships in future and they have Rings like this ship.

As a Television show ship I'm not sure how well this would work as a design. Unlike the Vulcan ring ships it looks more filmsy. It doesn't say battle ready so I'd imagine it's an exploration only ship.

 

[Arpy]

Honestly most ships that look battle ready in Trek get an eye-roll from me. I never buy it and usually wonder who they think I am.

Besides, the D-7, TOS E, and E-J are plenty dainty yet plenty devastating.

Really, once something penetrates the shields, that should be game over no matter what the ship looks like. In my head-canon universe (the one I picture this ship in and even the canon ones) phasers and photon torpedoes put nuclear weapons to shame, and the explosions are far more spectacular when their energy isn't being absorbed by shields or whatnot.

 

[Imaus]

^ I try not to overthink it. I mean, how dumb and arrogant would we need to be not to, after three hundred years, still call Vulcans by our name for them, not theirs? Or the Romulans? Or the Delta-ns or Beta-zed-s, or the Orion’s? On and on... I mean, we don’t even have their name for themselves that we don’t use, only ours.

I’m more comfortable not thinking about it than pulling an ENT and suggesting that “Romulan” is their name for themselves.

But then I was comfortable without Worf having to address why he looked different from other Klingons in “Trials and Tribble-ations” too. That breaking for the fourth wall was more disturbing than the production issues massaging we all do for ourselves.

The novels try to say that it's a form of adaptation. 'Vulcan' is similar to what the Vulcan endonym is - 'Vuhlkansu?'. 'Romulan' is a bit more distorted, something like 'Rihannisu' is their endonym.

'orion' however is a light pejorative.

Honestly most ships that look battle ready in Trek get an eye-roll from me. I never buy it and usually wonder who they think I am.

Besides, the D-7, TOS E, and E-J are plenty dainty yet plenty devastating.

Really, once something penetrates the shields, that should be game over no matter what the ship looks like. In my head-canon universe (the one I picture this ship in and even the canon ones) phasers and photon torpedoes put nuclear weapons to shame, and the explosions are far more spectacular when their energy isn't being absorbed by shields or whatnot.

Agreed, we only really see something like this with DS9 and the Breen weapons,, or TNG with Wolf 359 and a few others. At that point it doesn't matter what your hull is, you're getting wrecked.

 

[Timo]

^ I try not to overthink it. I mean, how dumb and arrogant would we need to be not to, after three hundred years, still call Vulcans by our name for them, not theirs? Or the Romulans? Or the Delta-ns or Beta-zed-s, or the Orion’s? On and on... I mean, we don’t even have their name for themselves that we don’t use, only ours.

...Chinese, anyone? Or Indians (either variant)? Or, say, Germans? Three hundred years is nothing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

^ I try not to overthink it. I mean, how dumb and arrogant would we need to be not to, after three hundred years, still call Vulcans by our name for them, not theirs? Or the Romulans? Or the Delta-ns or Beta-zed-s, or the Orion’s? On and on... I mean, we don’t even have their name for themselves that we don’t use, only ours.

I’m more comfortable not thinking about it than pulling an ENT and suggesting that “Romulan” is their name for themselves.

But then I was comfortable without Worf having to address why he looked different from other Klingons in “Trials and Tribble-ations” too. That breaking for the fourth wall was more disturbing than the production issues massaging we all do for ourselves.

The novels try to say that it's a form of adaptation. 'Vulcan' is similar to what the Vulcan endonym is - 'Vuhlkansu?'. 'Romulan' is a bit more distorted, something like 'Rihannisu' is their endonym.

'orion' however is a light pejorative.



Agreed, we only really see something like this with DS9 and the Breen weapons,, or TNG with Wolf 359 and a few others. At that point it doesn't matter what your hull is, you're getting wrecked.

...Chinese, anyone? Or Indians (either variant)? Or, say, Germans? Three hundred years is nothing.

Timo Saloniemi

Or Japanese, Heck, even the name Filipino, originally meant the Spanish Europeans born in the Philippines, and not the descendants of the ancient population.

People speaking a given language usually use their name for other people and things, rather than use another language's name.

Plus I think it's a good way to explain the Vulcan being conquered contradiction.

 

[Arpy]

I’m Greek-American and am aware we don’t call Greece by its own name, but we Do at least know what it is. Trek doesn’t do that. Heck, Lord of the Rings is better at naming things, offering multiple names for characters or places depending on the language or context. I like that we have both Romulan and Rihannsu. Human and [the racist] Pinkskin.

I think I’m another century or so, we do start to call different countries by their own names for themselves. We’re coming up in real-time audio translation software, and I think that’s going to change the world. When you can talk directly to foreigners and get a distinct understanding of them, I think it changes the international landscape and bring us all closer. It’ll be interesting to really get a feel how different cultures think and see the world by the way they speak. That is, from fine-tunes translation software that permits regional distinctiveness and doesn’t over translate. Anywho, the point is, I don’t think people will want to be called by whatever word foreigners call them and will want to insist on something closer to what they call themselves.

That tech, coming this decade or next, coupled with greater multicultural sensitivity today than in 1969, suggests to me that in the real world, we’re less likely to call something by a name only because we’ve already done so for millennia. We won’t get the chance to.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think China and India got rid of some of the anglicised words Peking went back to Bejing etc

I am surprised the Vulcans, Romulans and Orions in the Star Trek universe use the names that Earth uses. Makes no sense, unless you go with the universal translater theory.

 

[Tim Walker]

I think that a prequel of a prequel could work (a prequel to Archers NX-01 Enterprise), even if set in another timeline. Using a primitive ring ship.

Different commentators have the discussed the problem posed for drama if the tech is hyper-advanced. Verging on magical. Which makes it too easy for characters to technobabble their way out of situations. And if we go beyond the 24th century in the prime timeline, the writers have to make up excuses why the super tech goes off line during crises.

 

[Orphalesion]

I am surprised the Vulcans, Romulans and Orions in the Star Trek universe use the names that Earth uses. Makes no sense, unless you go with the universal translater theory.

I dunno, I'm originally from Germany and never in a hundred years would I insist on calling it "Deutschland" while conversing in English or French.
When I speak English I call it Gemrany. When I speak French I call it Allemagne.
And most of the time we see those Vulcans, Romulans and Orions talking with humans.

 

[uniderth]

Also about the Orions. I know they appear in TAS and ENT. But I prefer an interpretation based on "The Cage", where Orion is a colony. A group of humans who went out looking for fame and fortune. It would probably consist of multiple species by the time "The Cage" rolled around.

 

[Timo]

Orions were always iffy.

- If a human is considering a business at "the Orion colony", dealing in "green animal women" in the capacity of "Orion trader", does this mean that said human becomes an "Orion", or does it mean he starts trading in "Orions", who are/include green animal women, and/or/aka slaves?
- What lies in "Orion ruins" and who left them? The Orions, or those who lived there before them?
- What does it mean that somebody pretending to be an Andorian is in fact "an Orion"? That he carries a Letter of Marque from the allegedly neutral "Orion" in his back pocket (and this would be noticed when preparing for an autopsy), or otherwise works for "Orion smugglers" (who smuggle Orions?), even though most Andorians wouldn't? That he's of the/an Orion species (and an autopsy will reveal this)?

It is only with TAS that we get more definite interpretations. Orion was indeed an advanced civilization in such ancient times that humans can only get data on them via a time machine, and no doubt its ruins are now adjoined by "the Orion colony" where humans, who are among the colonists/visitors, can make amazing discoveries in addition to engaging in slave trade and debauchery ("Yesteryear"). But Orion is also definitely a race, and the green animal women belong to that race ("Time Trap"). And Orion is a sovereign power that secretly practices piracy ("Pirates of Orion") even if it allows for the presence of the colony spoken of earlier; Orions can include blue-skinned (and non-"animal"?) males in addition to green-skinned females. Basically, then, "Orion" is used the same way "Vulcan" would be, including referring to the occasional adoptive sister from a different species.

What ENT then does on the Orions is fine-tuning. Green males also exist. The government that Starfleet negotiates with is the Orion Syndicate, even if in TNG/DS9, we might have mistaken it for a "mere" crime organization (and perhaps it has become one by then?).

Our early explorers in their ringship probably wouldn't encounter "the Orion colony" yet, were they to operate within the otherwise established Trek universe. And the Orions we meet from ENT onwards would already be the ones ruling over Orion, having been trading with Coridan for "centuries" before this; the mighty ancients would be long gone. But eventually, there would also be (planets?) Orion I and Orion III to consider, as per VOY - possibly at least one of these an otherwise inhospitable place recently settled only because it's so conveniently close to the attractive Orion proper.

The one bit still missing? Whether this place Orion where the Orions of the Orion species rule and allow the Orion colony to exist on top of Orion ruins is in any way associated with the constellation Orion...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

I’m wondering if I should give TAS another shot. ...that may be overstating my interest. Anyone care to suggest the 5 (AND ONLY 5) episodes I should give a viewing before I turn my attention elsewhere?

 

[Timo]

The early ones have promise. "Beyond the Farthest Star" and "Yesteryear" are fine. I'd then skip straight to "Albatross"; the rest is relative drivel, yet with various guilty pleasures to be found. "The Time Trap" and "Pirates of Orion" might round out the watchables, although your lightyearage can certainly vary.

It's a bit weird how little of TAS is "alternative" or "what if". The early seasons of most spinoffs held the promise of spinning off to wild directions, but most eventually didn't. TAS feels like a conservative continuation of TOS, just with flashier / more cartoony visuals... And the 30-minute format, with perhaps 15-20 minutes of relevant story per most episodes, alas.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

Orions were always iffy.

- If a human is considering a business at "the Orion colony", dealing in "green animal women" in the capacity of "Orion trader", does this mean that said human becomes an "Orion", or does it mean he starts trading in "Orions", who are/include green animal women, and/or/aka slaves?
- What lies in "Orion ruins" and who left them? The Orions, or those who lived there before them?
- What does it mean that somebody pretending to be an Andorian is in fact "an Orion"? That he carries a Letter of Marque from the allegedly neutral "Orion" in his back pocket (and this would be noticed when preparing for an autopsy), or otherwise works for "Orion smugglers" (who smuggle Orions?), even though most Andorians wouldn't? That he's of the/an Orion species (and an autopsy will reveal this)?

All good questions. I just did a quick once over of the Orion references(though I skipped TAS and ENT) and here's what we have to deal with:

NOTE: Some of my assumptions I'm going to pull some information from some cut elements of "The Cage"(http://startrekhistory.com/cagepage.html). Feel free to disregard it if you want, but I think there is enough of this scene left in "The Cage" that the other information is useful too. Also I'm not interested in debating the morality of the situation. I just want to look at it form a world building perspective.

-There is a thing called the Orion Colony, which is where Orion traders come from. (ST "The Cage")
-Green Animal Women slaves are a thing that Orion traders trade.(ST "The Cage")
-The Orion Traders are taking advantage of the natives, meaning that Orion traders and Orion natives are distinct groups. (ST "The Cage" cut)
-Orion Slaves enjoy their servitude. (ST "The Cage": "Funny how they are on this planet. They actually like being taken advantage of.")
-There are distinct types of slaves: Green and non-green. The green type are more rare. (ST "The Cage" cut: "Do any of you have a green one?")
-The green skinned slaves are dangerous and lure in men. (ST "The Cage" cut: "They're dangerous, I hear. Razor shard claws, and they attract a man like a sensation of irresistible hunger..." )
-Green animal women slaves can only be tamed under certain circumstances. (ST "The Cage" cut: "Now and then comes a man who tames one.")
-There were Orion ruins that contained superior medical information that revolutionized immunisation techniques in the mid 23rd century.(ST "What are Litle Girls Made of")
-Famous novelist from the far left star in Orion's belt will write a classic using the theme of "Let me help".(ST "City of the Edge of Forever")
-Orion's can be distinguished from Andorians(and presumably humans) medically, otherwise why would this be of relevance to Dr. McCoy.(ST "Journey to Babel")
-There is such a thing as Orion wing-slugs. (TNG "Menage a Troi")
-An organization known as the Orion Syndicate exists in the 24th Century. (DSN multiple)
-There such a place as Orion Three and an Institute of Cosmology on Orion One. (VOY "The Fight" and "Good Shepherd")

So let's start piecing some things together. We know that the Orion Colony is made up of non-natives (probably mostly human). But there is still a distinct Orion people. The people seem to have two subspecies, the green type and the non-green. The non-greens are stated to enjoy servitude and I would argue that they are the descendants of the fallen high civilization that left the ruins. This assumption comes because the green types are primarily animal-like. We don't even know if they have language. The green types are dangerous unless tamed. Their hunting strategy appears to be luring males in and killing them. Because of my disdain for Enterprise I hate to say the lure is pheromones.

My next question is, was Thelev in "Journey to Babel" one of these non-green slave types? or is there a third type of Orion? Or are these Orion smugglers not even related to the "The Cage" Orions at all? If we assume that they are the same, then the non-green slave types can be quite well educated and pass for other species. Perhaps this is why he was chosen to go on the suicide mission, His predilection for slavery would have ensured he'd fulfil the suicide mission. It doesn't quite jive for me, but it's close.

Although, if we do want to include the blue skinned Orions, perhaps they are a third type that don't have a predilection for enjoying slavery and they were the ones taking advantage of their co-natives before the humans got there. That could be fun. Thelev could have been one of these and that would make disguising him as an Orion even easier.

100 years after this, these Orion traders/smugglers eventually form the Orion Syndicate. Probably with more planets under their belt. Those other three references seem largely irrelevant.

But out of all this the biggest question is: Where is Orion?

I presume that we are talking about the constellation Orion. The problem is that, not only is Orion multiple stars, but those stars are spread out over VAST distances. As in, some are REALLY REALLY far away. So are they all considered "Orion", or is it only one, or some of them? Mybe it has nothing to do with the Orion Constellation at all. Though, I'd like it to have SOME connection with our constellation Orion.

Our early explorers in their ringship probably wouldn't encounter "the Orion colony" yet, were they to operate within the otherwise established Trek universe.

Granted. However, since I place my ringship in the 2150s and with faster speeds it could be possible for humanity to have reached these places at this time.

The bight stars of Orion have these distances:

Betelgeuse 624ly
Rigel 772ly
Bellatrix 245ly
Mintaka 916ly
Alnilam 1,342ly
Alnitak 800ly
Saiph 650ly
Meissa 1,042 ly

Most of them are pretty far away. So if "Orion" is one of these starts they probably weren't contacted until later. Alternatively, it could be ANY of the stars in the Orion constellation and could be much closer. Since, in "The Cage", the "Orion Colony" has a bit of an undeveloped ring to it. I'm going to guess it was established no more than 50 years prior to the episode. (Yes, I pulled that number out of my butt. Though, not literally.)

I’m wondering if I should give TAS another shot. ...that may be overstating my interest. Anyone care to suggest the 5 (AND ONLY 5) episodes I should give a viewing before I turn my attention elsewhere?

I'm going to be honest, ALL TAS episodes are my favorite. But if I had to pick 5 for someone to watch I'd pick:

"Beyond the Farthest Star"
"The Survivor"
"The Infinite Vulcan"
"The Slaver Weapon"
"Bem"

I think that's a good mix. Though I'd save "The Slaver Weapon" for last.

 

[Tim Walker]

Reddit

Do You Think Governments Have Alien Technology

Quoting Old Nedder:

If the governments obtained crashed saucers I think the aliens would have the means to reclaim the saucers or prevent us from reproducing the technologies. For sure, if governments started experimenting with UFO propulsion systems they would see that and easily put an end to it."

My own thought is that Earthling governments might not get that far, but might get clues from interdimensional craft that could lead to subspace radio. Perhaps such aliens have no interest in this, but gives Earthlings a technology that they can trade for other technologies

Tested by sending signals between the Earth and its moon, and then between Earth and Mars.

I can imagine early subspace radio sending a message almost instantaneously across known space, but with extremely limited bandwidth. Think of something comparable to smoke signals.

 

[Henoch]

This allowed the nearly instantaneous teleportation of an object to a distance of approximately 10,000 kilometers. This discovery led to the development of teleporter technology."

Nice explanation for quantum teleportation. Instead of a "pop" or "jump" teleportation of the whole object at once, the process is spread out in time where the object is transferred molecule by molecule to its new location. By TOS, Obsession, the maximum teleporter range is increased to 30,000 km.

 

[Henoch]

I can imagine early subspace radio sending a message almost instantaneously across known space, but with extremely limited bandwidth. Think of something comparable to smoke signals.

...or like Morse Code?

 

[uniderth]

Nice explanation for quantum teleportation. Instead of a "pop" or "jump" teleportation of the whole object at once, the process is spread out in time where the object is transferred molecule by molecule to its new location. By TOS, Obsession, the maximum teleporter range is increased to 30,000 km.

Which, honestly, if the transporter works through some sort of quantum tunneling or worm hole, the range is more a matter of power. While the molecular 3D printer common to Star Trek today range is more a limitation of precision.

I can imagine early subspace radio sending a message almost instantaneously across known space, but with extremely limited bandwidth. Think of something comparable to smoke signals.

I don't know about instantaneously, but it would be a lot faster compared to radio.

 

[Henoch]

I don't know about instantaneously, but it would be a lot faster compared to radio.

I envision it to be a two fold system. Firstly, a quantum node relay network (stealing upon @Imaus 's quantum transporter) where subspace radio probes are dropped throughout know space (stealing from ENT, too) where communication signals are instantly quantum relayed to each other that are in range. Pick a range between probes, but I assume it would need to be in the light year range to be buildable. Part of the "exploration" mission is to drop these probes if you find a neat designation. Of course, your ship is always a node. When in range of any node, you have instant two-way communications as seen in many episodes.
Secondly, quantum probes can also receive subspace radio waves where the speed of light c is much faster in subspace. This is similar to the speed of sound in different mediums. When your ship is out of range of the last node in the system, then you are limited by the speed of light (radio wave) in the subspace medium. We see some transmission delays of three weeks. If the speed of the radio wave was only c, then three weeks would put you practically on top of the last probe; it would be faster just to warp speed to the last probe than sit and wait. I think your ship would normally go light years off the last probe to explore a new region of space before going back to drop probes to build upon the spider web quantum network.