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The Enterprise E andthe Dominion War

As important as we all think the Enterprise is, let's not forget Alt-Picard's quote from Yesterday's Enterprise: (paraphrased) one ship in a war won't make that much of a difference. Especially if it's on the losing side.

Besides, having a ship as memorable as the Enterprise would ensure that it goes down in flames. When the Defiant was destroyed, the Dominion knew full well that its defeat was also a blow to AQ morality. And the Enterprise is arguably more famous than the Defiant. Psychological warfare in space.


In Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation was months away from surrender, so yes, one ship would make no difference. During the Dominion War the Federation, admittedly on the defensive for the greater part of the War, was not in as dire a situation as the Klingon/Federation War depicted in Yesterday's Enterprise. Also remember that war had been waged for 20 years. The Dominion War had been a Cold War, with a few hot spots, for about 3 years, before becoming hot for about 2 years. A far cry from a 20 year war.

As for the destruction of the Defiant, it destruction was, IMO, not the reason for the decrease in morale. The cause was in how easily the Dominion and Breen were able to defeat and drive away the Federation/Klingon/Romulan fleet. The Breen introduced a new tide turning weapon to the war. One that 2/3rds of the Allied Fleet had no defense. That is what shocked the Allies, that is what caused a decrease in morale.

Had the Enterprise been a part of that fleet, I doubt its destruction would have been as big a blow to morale as the overall ease of defeat.
 
As important as we all think the Enterprise is, let's not forget Alt-Picard's quote from Yesterday's Enterprise: (paraphrased) one ship in a war won't make that much of a difference. Especially if it's on the losing side.

Besides, having a ship as memorable as the Enterprise would ensure that it goes down in flames. When the Defiant was destroyed, the Dominion knew full well that its defeat was also a blow to AQ morality. And the Enterprise is arguably more famous than the Defiant. Psychological warfare in space.
Exactly. Destroying the Federation Fleet at Chin'toka was demoralizing to Starfleet, but destroying the Federation FLAGSHIP would have been more so.
 
^ What is the source of this information? Many of the movie models were used in TNG, just because the kept Picard's Stargazer a lesser ship doesn't mean anything. By the time of Generations and after that, it was the same group of people running trek on TV and the film franchise. It may have been Rick Berman's idea to keep the Enterprise off of TV once it went into theaters, but talking about 'Paramount's moive division' sounds kind of official?
It is mentioned in Star Trek: Action - a Behind the Scenes book from 1998. Paramount's Executives held it over from the Roddenberry years. Since the Constitution Class Enterprise in the movie era and the Sovereign Class Enterprise-E were the hero ships they felt that if people could see them on the small screen they wouldn't pay to see them on the big screen. This was one of the reasons why TNG ended - they wanted to do films and didn't think people would go to the theatre when they could watch it on TV. Since the Excelsior, Miranda, Oberth, etc were not the hero ship they there was no problem with them showing up.

You may ask why the Galaxy Class was allowed to be used: The Enterprise-D had already been planned to be destroyed so it would no longer be the hero ship post Generations.

Plus they were worried about casual fans being confused when they saw a Sovereign Class ship on screen and instantly thinking that that was the Enterprise or a Constitution and thinking the same thing.
 
^ What is the source of this information? Many of the movie models were used in TNG, just because the kept Picard's Stargazer a lesser ship doesn't mean anything. By the time of Generations and after that, it was the same group of people running trek on TV and the film franchise. It may have been Rick Berman's idea to keep the Enterprise off of TV once it went into theaters, but talking about 'Paramount's moive division' sounds kind of official?
It is mentioned in Star Trek: Action - a Behind the Scenes book from 1998. Paramount's Executives held it over from the Roddenberry years. Since the Constitution Class Enterprise in the movie era and the Sovereign Class Enterprise-E were the hero ships they felt that if people could see them on the small screen they wouldn't pay to see them on the big screen. This was one of the reasons why TNG ended - they wanted to do films and didn't think people would go to the theatre when they could watch it on TV. Since the Excelsior, Miranda, Oberth, etc were not the hero ship they there was no problem with them showing up.

You may ask why the Galaxy Class was allowed to be used: The Enterprise-D had already been planned to be destroyed so it would no longer be the hero ship post Generations.

Plus they were worried about casual fans being confused when they saw a Sovereign Class ship on screen and instantly thinking that that was the Enterprise or a Constitution and thinking the same thing.

I've always liked that they did that. It makes the ships seem a little more special.

Interestingly though, an Intrepid-class appeared on DS9 and a Defiant-class appeared on VGR.
 
^ That is a good point, then again though Voyager wasn't a movie Starship and (technically) neither was Defiant.

Noncanonly the Enterprise was involved with the following:

Retook Illarh
Destroyed an Artificial Wormhole (noncanon even in the noncanon universe)
Got the Gorn into the War
Visited Deep Space Nine between seasons 6-7
Led the effort to liberate Betazed
Insurrection
Present at the Battle of Riktor Prime
Repelled the Breen Invasion Force at Earth
 
I'd like to think that the Enterprise-E and her crew played a significant role in the Dominion War. There's no way they were out mapping gaseous anomalies while Starfleet sent Excelsior- and Miranda-class (!) ships to the front lines.

Me too!!! I would to think Enterprise-E was in the fight during Dominion War, I was hoping to see Enterprise-E in the next Star Trek movie but since the next movie takes place during Kirk and Spock early year, I don't that we will my great Enterprise-E but you never know for sure.:thumbsup:;)
 
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In Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation was months away from surrender, so yes, one ship would make no difference. During the Dominion War the Federation, admittedly on the defensive for the greater part of the War, was not in as dire a situation as the Klingon/Federation War depicted in Yesterday's Enterprise. Also remember that war had been waged for 20 years. The Dominion War had been a Cold War, with a few hot spots, for about 3 years, before becoming hot for about 2 years. A far cry from a 20 year war.

I disagree. The Dominion War was probably on a much greater and faster scale than the Alt-Klingon War. Time comparison wouldn't be much of a factor. Remember that prior to that episode, four of the greatest minds in the Federation calculated near-inevitable loss of the entire war to mathematical certainty. The speed that everything was happening was accelerated, which was a very frightening trend in the war. And it was quite clear that even with the Klingons and Romulans on their side, the Alpha Quadrant simply could not keep up with the war machine that the Dominion had.

As you said, the Federation was months away from surrender in the alt-timeline. But in the proper time line, the Federation was in the exact same position. Only with arguably more losses, two major allies going down with them, and taking only two years rather than twenty to get all that done. I'd say that's a much bigger loss.

In one war, it takes 20 years for the Federation to almost exhaust its supply of ships. In another, it takes almost two years with three giant space nations rather than one lone Federation. I'd say the situation is FARRRRR more dire. Same percentage? Maybe, but with much, much greater numbers and loss of life. Heck, a year earlier, the AQ had the closest of calls ever, if it wasn't for Sisko convincing the Prophets to help. If they didn't intervene, the AQ would've have been screwed, and all comparisons to the Alt-Klingon War would be moot (20 years Vs. 6 months). THAT's dire.

But then it brings us back to the point: with the Dominion War being so spread out across the Alpha Quadrant and spilling over the Beta Quadrant, why have the Enterprise-E seen on DS9? Space is big, war is huge. It's like wondering where the heck the carrier Enterprise was in World War II when we focus on General Patton in Europe, completely forgetting that the Pacific Fleet was a major factor in fighting the Axis Powers. Like World War II, there was tons of fighting going on in the Dominion War, and it wasn't isolated around one location. Patton never really spoke of the Pacific Fleet during the war. For all we know, the Enterprise-E was a major factor elsewhere in the war, only far from DS9.

As for the destruction of the Defiant, it destruction was, IMO, not the reason for the decrease in morale. The cause was in how easily the Dominion and Breen were able to defeat and drive away the Federation/Klingon/Romulan fleet. The Breen introduced a new tide turning weapon to the war. One that 2/3rds of the Allied Fleet had no defense. That is what shocked the Allies, that is what caused a decrease in morale.

Had the Enterprise been a part of that fleet, I doubt its destruction would have been as big a blow to morale as the overall ease of defeat.

I didn't say the Defiant was the *only* reason for the decrease. That's just silly (especially in light of my earlier point of the importance of one ship). But it's still a blow nevertheless. It was the equivalent of losing a war hero after years of being on the front lines. Lest we forget that the entire battle was pretty psychological from the start, beginning with the attack on Earth.

The Second Battle of Chin'Toka was supposed to be relatively easy, too, at least judging from the confidence Sisko had going into the mission. There really wouldn't be that much of a point to having such a specialized vessel as the Enterprise there.
 
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Well, this thread touches on many things, but as someone else mentioned...the Federation is big, and so is its Starfleet. Every ship most likely did something (well maybe except Voyager for obvious reasons) whether you saw it on screen or not.

While technically non-canon (blah blah blah)...the novels did fill in those gaps decently. Ent-E was involved in the Battle of Betazed. Picard & crew were also involved in dismantling the Dominion's attempt at creating an artificial wormhole. Another story had Picard & Troi down on Earth when the Breen attacked...and how they helped get Starfleet's Emergency Operations up. I'm probably missing others, but you get the idea.
 
This thread reminds me of another thing people always complain about. Along with not mentioning the Enterprise E in DS9, why didn't they mention Voyager, specifically when Zimmerman visits and is making the EMH Mark 2? This topic came up 3 years ago on an email list I'm on. I was happy to write a scene for everyone. I thought I would share it here:

Zimmerman: I am making the EMH Mark 2, I want it to look like you.

Bashir: Is it to replace all the current EMH's?

Zimmerman: Why yes it is. As you know the first one looked like me. All of them will be replaced by one that looks like you.

Sisko: Wow, you're gonna be famous Julian!

Zimmerman: Well, almost all of them. See, there is a ship that is lost in the Delta Quadrent named Voyager, and I can't exactly replace the one on Voyager.

Sisko: That's too bad, you won't be famous on Voyager Julian.

Bashir: Hold on, if Voyager is lost, how do we know they are in the Delta Quadrent? Are we somehow communicating with them?

Zimmerman: Well, let me check my logs here...

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/episodes/index.html?season=5
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/episodes/index.html?season=4

Zimmerman: So okay, we don't hear from then for about another year, but let's just ignore that. Voyager won't get the Mark 2 EMH. Poor Voyager. Voyager Voyager Voyager.

Bashir: What does Voyager have to do with everyone finding out I'm genetically enhanced? Isn't that the point of this episode?

Sisko: Shutup doctor, that's an order! I want to hear more about Voyager.

Worf: Forget Voyager, I served on the Enterprise. We should be talking about that.

O'Brien: I agree, the Enterprise rules!

Dax: I hear the new Enterprise has an EMH, just like Voyager!

Bashir: When you guys finally decided to get on with the plot of this episode and get your stardates figured out, let me know.
 
@knine's post:

O'Brien: Just think Julian, if only we could replace Voyager's EMH with you, you could annoy another 150 or so people!

Robert
 
I disagree. The Dominion War was probably on a much greater and faster scale than the Alt-Klingon War. Time comparison wouldn't be much of a factor. Remember that prior to that episode, four of the greatest minds in the Federation calculated near-inevitable loss of the entire war to mathematical certainty. The speed that everything was happening was accelerated, which was a very frightening trend in the war. And it was quite clear that even with the Klingons and Romulans on their side, the Alpha Quadrant simply could not keep up with the war machine that the Dominion had.

Objectively speaking The War, the war was not going all THAT badly. When the war finally grew hot at the end of season 5, only what could be called skirmishes had occurred.

The Federation relinquished control--and they did relinquish control DS9 was not taken totally by force--of DS9 only after laying a mine field at the mouth of the Worm Hole. That battle at DS9 allowed Starfleet and the Klingons to destroy ship building facilities and other targets in Dominion Space.

Things started to go bad after that, the loss of the 12th(?) Fleet, and the constant retreat of Starfleet which were demoralizing and aggravating to Starfleet personnel. However after that, the Federation was able, with the help of the Prophets, to retake DS9 and prevent Dominion ships from coming into the Alpha Quadrant. The Founder in charge of the AQ forces called a retreat to Cardassian space because the war was going to last longer than expected

As you said, the Federation was months away from surrender in the alt-timeline. But in the proper time line, the Federation was in the exact same position. Only with arguably more losses, two major allies going down with them, and taking only two years rather than twenty to get all that done. I'd say that's a much bigger loss.

In one war, it takes 20 years for the Federation to almost exhaust its supply of ships. In another, it takes almost two years with three giant space nations rather than one lone Federation. I'd say the situation is FARRRRR more dire. Same percentage? Maybe, but with much, much greater numbers and loss of life. Heck, a year earlier, the AQ had the closest of calls ever, if it wasn't for Sisko convincing the Prophets to help. If they didn't intervene, the AQ would've have been screwed, and all comparisons to the Alt-Klingon War would be moot (20 years Vs. 6 months). THAT's dire..

At no point was it ever mentioned that anywhere near half of Starfleet was lost. Battles were lost. Many ships destroyed and as Sisko noted the casualty list grew every day and Betazed was lost. That was the reason to get the Romulans in the war. With the Romulans in the War the Alies were able to take aCardassian planet and make a toe hold in enemy space. Finally the Dominion was on the defensive; and the Cardassians were starting to see that their role in the War was to be the Dominion Whipping boy should they lose.

A ray of light was shinning through the clouds of war.

But then it brings us back to the point: with the Dominion War being so spread out across the Alpha Quadrant and spilling over the Beta Quadrant, why have the Enterprise-E seen on DS9? Space is big, war is huge. It's like wondering where the heck the carrier Enterprise was in World War II when we focus on General Patton in Europe, completely forgetting that the Pacific Fleet was a major factor in fighting the Axis Powers. Like World War II, there was tons of fighting going on in the Dominion War, and it wasn't isolated around one location. Patton never really spoke of the Pacific Fleet during the war. For all we know, the Enterprise-E was a major factor elsewhere in the war, only far from DS9.

By the 6th and 7th seasons of DS9 it was known that the Enterprise E was under the command of Picard, and with the exception of Worf, he had his previous command staff with him. These were people Worf knew well. As a Klingon he would have felt pride in knowing the Enterprise was in battle and maybe even a little ashamed that he was not there to help his former captain, his Cha'Dich, his friends Riker, Data and Geordi, and his one time love Troi. He should, no I believe he would have, kept up with the exploits of the Enterprise.

The O'Brien's also had friends aboard the Enterprise. Miles was close to Geordi and to Barclay (Who was on the ship for at least a part of the War before joining the project to help Voyager) wouldn't he want to know how the Enterprise was doing without him? Keiko too would be concerned at least for the Android who played the part of "Father of the Bride" at her wedding.

I didn't say the Defiant was the *only* reason for the decrease. That's just silly (especially in light of my earlier point of the importance of one ship). But it's still a blow nevertheless.

You may not have said exactly that but this quote sure does seem to imply it:
Besides, having a ship as memorable as the Enterprise would ensure that it goes down in flames. When the Defiant was destroyed, the Dominion knew full well that its defeat was also a blow to AQ morality. And the Enterprise is arguably more famous than the Defiant. Psychological warfare in space.



It was the equivalent of losing a war hero after years of being on the front lines. Lest we forget that the entire battle was pretty psychological from the start, beginning with the attack on Earth.

The attack on Earth only happened after the Breen joined forces with the Dominion.

The Second Battle of Chin'Toka was supposed to be relatively easy, too, at least judging from the confidence Sisko had going into the mission. There really wouldn't be that much of a point to having such a specialized vessel as the Enterprise there.

That is true, and that I'll concede that point to you.

I'm not saying the show should have had joint missions using the Enterprise and the Defiant (Although I would have liked that), but someone, somehow would have been concerned about her whereabouts. Worf and O'Brien could have been seen on the lift to Opps mentioning that they were glad to see that the Enterprise was successful at the battle whatever. Something, anything would have been good.
 
I'm not saying the show should have had joint missions using the Enterprise and the Defiant (Although I would have liked that), but someone, somehow would have been concerned about her whereabouts. Worf and O'Brien could have been seen on the lift to Opps mentioning that they were glad to see that the Enterprise was successful at the battle whatever. Something, anything would have been good.

Sadly that something would instantly have tied the movies into the Enterprise being somewhere at that point - possibly contradicting a future movie plot and causing even more "canon" issues!
 
I'm not saying the show should have had joint missions using the Enterprise and the Defiant (Although I would have liked that), but someone, somehow would have been concerned about her whereabouts. Worf and O'Brien could have been seen on the lift to Opps mentioning that they were glad to see that the Enterprise was successful at the battle whatever. Something, anything would have been good.

Sadly that something would instantly have tied the movies into the Enterprise being somewhere at that point - possibly contradicting a future movie plot and causing even more "canon" issues!

I don't see how it would. My understanding is that the TNG movie time line would be something like this:
1. Generations (Pre-Cold War)
2. First Contact (Cold War between seasons 4 and 6 of DS9)
3. Insurrection (During a lull in the War while the Federation was looking to secure more allies.)
4. Nemesis (Post War)
Having stated that the Enterprise was at the battle of such and such would not have made a conflict.
 
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