It bears relevance because they didn't send him to do do anything useful during the Dominion War. Probably if he was a good combat Captain who had the potential to be useful, then they would have put him to use. Instead of doing nothing with him like they did. The reason they didn't send him is because he's no good at it.
The Enterprise E andthe Dominion War
- Thread starter Vanyel
- Start date
It bears relevance because they didn't send him to do do anything useful during the Dominion War. Probably if he was a good combat Captain who had the potential to be useful, then they would have put him to use. Instead of doing nothing with him like they did. The reason they didn't send him is because he's no good at it.
We don't know that. The war was bigger than what was shown on DS9.
If he hadn't been any good in combat, he would have never become a captain. If he hadn't been any good in combat, Starfleet never would have given him command of their flagship, which they must have known would be at the forefront of any major combat operation, no matter their peaceful idealism.
Because I'm trying to suggest things that the alternate questions imply.
Or, rather, they were the two most advanced and powerful ships in the fleet when they went on active duty in 2372. The Dominion War didn't break out until the very end of 2373, and lasted until almost the beginning of 2376. And VOY established pretty firmly that the Prometheus class, introduced in 2374, was the most tactically advanced ship in the fleet. So, the Enterprise clearly wasn't the biggest fish in the pond anymore.
Secondly, so what? That the Sovereign class ships are very powerful does not mean that they would necessarily be around the area of space that Deep Space Nine was set in. Remember, the two areas we saw most frequently were Bajor, Cardassia, and the space between those two worlds. But the Dominion War was a massive war that was being fought all over the place. Just like there's no particular reason for soldiers fighting on the beaches of Normandy to be talking about what the aircraft carrier Enterprise was doing if she was in the Pacific Ocean, there's no particular reason for soldiers on Deep Space 9 to be prattling on about what the starship Enterprise was doing if she was, say, fighting in along the Benzite front, or near the Romulan border to defend against Dominion incursions over the Neutral Zone (mentioned in "In the Pale Moonlight"), or if she was attached to the Sol Sector. The war was big, and there's no particular reason for the Enterprise to be a topic of conversation at DS9 other than that Worf used to serve there.
Yeah, but we only ever saw a small part of the planning on Starfleet's part: We saw the planning that went on in the Bajor/Cardassian sector hotspots. We never saw what kind of planning went into defending the core Federation worlds like Earth or Vulcan or Andor. We never saw who was fighting -- and lost -- for Betazed. We never saw who fought off the Cardassian raiders who were crossing the Romulan Neutral Zone. We never saw who chased off the Breen from Earth. Etc. So the fact that we didn't see them mention the Enterprise on DS9 or at Starbase 375 means very little.
Yeah, because they were being bloody stupid. DS9 was, in Sisko's words, the most important piece of real estate in the Alpha Quadrant -- and he obviously managed to convince them of that.
Actually, it did. We saw plenty of planning sequences after the Allies had taken control of the beaches in that film. But, as I noted above, World War II was a pretty big war; even given the legendary status of the USS Enterprise, there's no particular reason for soldiers in Occupied France to be talking about it. They had their own part of the war to fight.
Exactly.
To quote Mommie Dearest "That is a lie."
Picard was never afraid to go into battle. He fought the Borg and was ready to destroy the ship rather than let he Borg have it. He fought Gul Macet(?) who attacked the Enterprise in The Wounded. He fought the ship that Uxbridge conjured up in The Survivors. He was ready to fight the Romulans, with the help of the Klingons, in The Defector. In the alternate time line of Yesterday's Enterprise he sacrificed the Enterprise to save the Federation. He created the Picard Maneuver. He was ready to fight the Romulans in Data's Day. He stood toe to toe against the Romulans in The Enemy. Those hardly seem like the actions of a Captain who is "dead weight".
Picard didn't like the idea of fighting, that's true. He believes in diplomacy before violence. However when push comes to shove, he was never afraid. He fought with ever tactic and trick he knew. He would have fought in the Dominion War.
However, let's entertain your idea that he wouldn't fight. Starfleet would have removed him from command of the Enterprise E and replaced him with Riker or any other captain willing to go into combat with the newest most advanced ship in the fleet.
Ok they were the second most advanced ships in the fleet. Still they were very powerful. You don't throw back 20 lbs. fish because you caught a 22 lbs. one. Starfleet needed both classes. 2 Sovereigns just might have broken through along with the Defiant in Sacrifice of Angels, or at least taken a lot of heat off her.
That would be true except that two of the main cast and one recurring character had friends on board the Enterprise. They would have been concerned about what battles she was in and her casualty reports.
If the Enterprise was involved in any of those battles or any battle, don't you think O'Brien and Worf would have talked about it? even if only between themselves.
You'll need to excuse me, but was Eisenhower in the movie? And as far a reason for soldiers to be talking about ships in the pacific or troops in Italy would be that many family members were in the War. I had 3 Great Uncles in WWII on my mothers side, 2 in the pacific one in Europe. On my father's side it was my Grandfather his brother and 2 of their cousins in the War, and from what I heard they all tried to find out about what was going on with each other whenever they could.
My mistake, I should have been more clear. Casablaca IS a love story. The espionage and escape are secondary to the love story. DS9, in its last 3 years was a war story, more akin to Tora! Tora! Tora! or The Longest Day in that when it dealt with the War it dealt with its planning, from the POV of both sides.
Random sniping:
However, it would have been a lot smarter to simply blow up the station while retreating in "Call to Arms". The station had zero value to the defense of Alpha while in Dominion hands. Worse still, it had zero value to the defense of Alpha even in Starfleet hands - its firepower never stopped Cardassian fleets from pouring through the wormhole, and it wasn't a practical fleet base that close to the enemy, either.
Worst of all, the station had immense utility to the enemy as a means of defending the wormhole against Alphans - just like a corresponding station on the Gamma side would have been of little real value to the Dominion, but immensely helpful to Alpha if in Alphan hands.
Sisko basically allowed the station to survive for sentimental reasons (and the writers did it because they'd have been out of a job if they destroyed the key location of their show), but the choice made little military sense.
To be sure, DS9 never featured an Eisenhoweresque character. The highest up we got was Ross, a theater commander for an area where nothing much happened during the war (save for its decisive beginning and end, of course, plus the Gallipoli-like interlude of trying to take Chin'toka).
Only by LaForge's boast. And being advanced doesn't mean being particularly powerful. While I don't buy entirely the argument that the Sovereign was a failed design, nothing indicates it would have been a more potent combatant than Galaxy. If anything, the Sovereign seemed to sport a large number of individually weaker systems such as torpedo launchers, while the Galaxy carried an all-big-gun armament. The latter might have been more decisive in battle than the former (if we go by WWI/II precedent). Or it might have been vice versa, but that wouldn't be such a nice excuse for not seeing Sovereigns marketed as the baddassest battlewagons of all time.
To be sure, the Federation seemed to be very much on the defensive at that time, with the Dominion advancing on all fronts far away from the Bajoran sector. The best assets would have been tied down elsewhere, while the "backstabbing" assault against DS9 would have been conducted by forces scraped together from what was available nearby. It's a wonder they got Galaxies in that fleet, really.
Timo Saloniemi
However, it would have been a lot smarter to simply blow up the station while retreating in "Call to Arms". The station had zero value to the defense of Alpha while in Dominion hands. Worse still, it had zero value to the defense of Alpha even in Starfleet hands - its firepower never stopped Cardassian fleets from pouring through the wormhole, and it wasn't a practical fleet base that close to the enemy, either.
Worst of all, the station had immense utility to the enemy as a means of defending the wormhole against Alphans - just like a corresponding station on the Gamma side would have been of little real value to the Dominion, but immensely helpful to Alpha if in Alphan hands.
Sisko basically allowed the station to survive for sentimental reasons (and the writers did it because they'd have been out of a job if they destroyed the key location of their show), but the choice made little military sense.
To be sure, DS9 never featured an Eisenhoweresque character. The highest up we got was Ross, a theater commander for an area where nothing much happened during the war (save for its decisive beginning and end, of course, plus the Gallipoli-like interlude of trying to take Chin'toka).
Only by LaForge's boast. And being advanced doesn't mean being particularly powerful. While I don't buy entirely the argument that the Sovereign was a failed design, nothing indicates it would have been a more potent combatant than Galaxy. If anything, the Sovereign seemed to sport a large number of individually weaker systems such as torpedo launchers, while the Galaxy carried an all-big-gun armament. The latter might have been more decisive in battle than the former (if we go by WWI/II precedent). Or it might have been vice versa, but that wouldn't be such a nice excuse for not seeing Sovereigns marketed as the baddassest battlewagons of all time.
To be sure, the Federation seemed to be very much on the defensive at that time, with the Dominion advancing on all fronts far away from the Bajoran sector. The best assets would have been tied down elsewhere, while the "backstabbing" assault against DS9 would have been conducted by forces scraped together from what was available nearby. It's a wonder they got Galaxies in that fleet, really.
Timo Saloniemi
Does anyone know why the movie model of the Enterprise E couldn't be used on TV? A model's a model.
Also, in reference to this discussion, I always presumed the reason Picard and crew didn't do a significant guest spot in DS9 was because a) there was a risk that the presence of the Enterprise would have stolen the thunder from DS9's characters (a la "These are the Voyages...") and b) it would have meant potentially difficult and expensive contract negotiations to get the TNG actors together for something beyond the three movies they originally signed up for. (I seem to remember that they had a tough enough time pulling them together for Nemesis.) What do you all think?
The Paramount movie division wanted there to always be a ship design that would be exclusively used for the movies. For the TOS movies it was the refitted Constitution which is why we never see it in TNG+ (Picard's Stargazer was supposed to be a Constitution), for the TNG movies it was the Sovereign.
Why? I mean, Paramount gets its money whether it's a movie or a TV show, so what advantage is there in preserving a model only for the movies? I don't see the economic benefits.
^ What is the source of this information? Many of the movie models were used in TNG, just because the kept Picard's Stargazer a lesser ship doesn't mean anything. By the time of Generations and after that, it was the same group of people running trek on TV and the film franchise. It may have been Rick Berman's idea to keep the Enterprise off of TV once it went into theaters, but talking about 'Paramount's moive division' sounds kind of official?
I think the book was called Perservers. William Shatner "wrote" it. I dont treat the books as canon but i read this one so what the hell. In it Crusher is complaining about their mission and that they weren't doing more important things concerning the war with the Dominion. Picard reminded her that their mission was important but that the Enterprise is considered a "high profile" vessel within starfleet. That Dominion intellengence would not doubt be constantly tracking its movements along with starfleets other powerful ships. Any chance they could have to keep Dominion intellgence in the dark about where the most powerful ships are the better. No doubt if the enterprise was anywhere near the frontlines on a mission, the Dominion would probably put forth a good effort in a raid to destroy her. I thought this kinda made sense but i dont know if Im remembering it correctly, its been awhile since i read it. Not only would they destroy the enterprise but it would also be known throughout the Federation that one of Starfleets most advanced ships ever with one of Starfleets most experienced crews was taken out. I like to look at it like how the Valiant was trying to track the new Dominion superwarship, it was behind enemy lines and moving from place to place making it hard to track and get info on. I would think the Dominion were doing the same thing by trying to track the Fed's so-called superwarships also,to either get tactical info on them or destroy them so they can't be used in bigfleet battles.
Oh yeah by the way, Picard did have battle experience, but he was also one of starfleets finest diplomats. Whether the Enterprise-E was the flagship or not, Picard still had experience in this. In Insurrection he clearly says "So starfleet has sent us to put out one more brush fire." Who knows what kind of mediations were needed to take place in order to keep all the allies together and in check. If the Dominion were kickin starfleet's asses as much as DS9 lead us to think, no doubt resources would be spread thin. I could see starfleet command thinking, "One soverign is gonna make much difference when its 1000 vs 1000 or more, why not use one of our best captains to take care of territory disputes, what little scientific research we are conducting in this wartime, and all the "brushfires" that we as command might take care of or allocate to someone else who isn't available because of the war."
In the end it was all about the distinction between the movies and the shows. The Enterprise-E was never going to be on TV. Why even create the Prometheus, it could've have been a new soverign ship that was a sister to the enterprise that the romulans stole, that would have been a nice tie in with the movies.
Oh yeah by the way, Picard did have battle experience, but he was also one of starfleets finest diplomats. Whether the Enterprise-E was the flagship or not, Picard still had experience in this. In Insurrection he clearly says "So starfleet has sent us to put out one more brush fire." Who knows what kind of mediations were needed to take place in order to keep all the allies together and in check. If the Dominion were kickin starfleet's asses as much as DS9 lead us to think, no doubt resources would be spread thin. I could see starfleet command thinking, "One soverign is gonna make much difference when its 1000 vs 1000 or more, why not use one of our best captains to take care of territory disputes, what little scientific research we are conducting in this wartime, and all the "brushfires" that we as command might take care of or allocate to someone else who isn't available because of the war."
In the end it was all about the distinction between the movies and the shows. The Enterprise-E was never going to be on TV. Why even create the Prometheus, it could've have been a new soverign ship that was a sister to the enterprise that the romulans stole, that would have been a nice tie in with the movies.
Picard's a fine fighter, he just always was looking for an alternative to combat. That's what you're supposed to do in situations when it's not war. And seeing how the Federation was NOT at war during TNG there was no reason for him NOT to always look for more intelligent solutions than outright combat, Kirk did the same thing most of the time it's just that either the guys Picard dealt with were more apt to listening or Kirk just wasn't as good at it.
There is yet another possiblity.
In the FASA Sourcebook for the Star Trek Role Playing Game "The Four Years War" the major war between the Federation and Klingon Empire was described.
The one that apparently preceded the first season of the original series by a decade or so
The sourcebook mentioned that early in the war, Starfleet pulled their brand new Constitution class starships out of combat with the Klingons.
Because Starfleet was worried that the new ships advanced technology might fall into the Klingons hands.
Perhaps in the Dominion War, Starfleet took a similiar stance with the new advanced Sovereign class. They sent them only on relatively low risk "safe" missions where the possibility of one being captured intact was remote.
In the FASA Sourcebook for the Star Trek Role Playing Game "The Four Years War" the major war between the Federation and Klingon Empire was described.
The one that apparently preceded the first season of the original series by a decade or so
The sourcebook mentioned that early in the war, Starfleet pulled their brand new Constitution class starships out of combat with the Klingons.
Because Starfleet was worried that the new ships advanced technology might fall into the Klingons hands.
Perhaps in the Dominion War, Starfleet took a similiar stance with the new advanced Sovereign class. They sent them only on relatively low risk "safe" missions where the possibility of one being captured intact was remote.
As important as we all think the Enterprise is, let's not forget Alt-Picard's quote from Yesterday's Enterprise: (paraphrased) one ship in a war won't make that much of a difference. Especially if it's on the losing side.
Besides, having a ship as memorable as the Enterprise would ensure that it goes down in flames. When the Defiant was destroyed, the Dominion knew full well that its defeat was also a blow to AQ morality. And the Enterprise is arguably more famous than the Defiant. Psychological warfare in space.
Besides, having a ship as memorable as the Enterprise would ensure that it goes down in flames. When the Defiant was destroyed, the Dominion knew full well that its defeat was also a blow to AQ morality. And the Enterprise is arguably more famous than the Defiant. Psychological warfare in space.
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