Spoilers The ending of the season, and the "tacked on two"...

[eschaton]

And from where I stand, she has moved from a place where her decisions are driven by fear and xenophobia to a place where they are driven by upholding the values she claims to hold. Here she has the fear that she had in the pilot - they even explicitly reference it through her story to Tyler - but she still chooses the right thing, unlike in the pilot where she chose the wrong thing out of that fear. She stood up to authority again in the finale, but to argue for the moral choice - her and Georgiou had swapped places, in essence. This aspect of the arc I certainly have no issues with. It's a very classic Star Trek theme, the idea that we will be who we say we are, even when it is to our disadvantage. Georgiou tried to teach Burnham that in the pilot, she learnt it in the finale.

I can see where you're coming from here. But IMHO Burnham already transitioned by the 4th or 5th episode into being the "voice of the Federation" on the show. She's repeatedly argued for compassion, forgiveness, and open-mindedness. So I haven't seen much evidence in progression of her arc in the back half of the series.

5: Trek plots always have sensible resolutions. You're quite right.

As I said in the episode thread, if this was an earlier Trek show, and this was the closure of a two-parter, I'd be more forgiving. But a season-long arc raises the stakes. IMHO Discovery has so far done serialization not only worse than DS9, but worse than Enterprise Season 3 - which I found pretty underwhelming as well.

 

[dahj]

2. The idea that the Federation would willingly attempt genocide

Remember that time Nechayev chided Picard for not genociding the Borg with the Hugh virus?

How 'bout that time Starfleet was fine with genociding the Founders?

 

[cultcross]

I can see where you're coming from here. But IMHO Burnham already transitioned by the 4th or 5th episode into being the "voice of the Federation" on the show. She's repeatedly argued for compassion, forgiveness, and open-mindedness. So I haven't seen much evidence in progression of her arc in the back half of the series.

She had, but mostly in situations where those choices hold little personal sacrifice for her - the tardigrade, for example, should be released. That's standard Star Trek, and while she did the right thing in arguing for it, she hardly had a personal stake in the opposite choice - it is an ethics question for her, not one of personal loss. In the finale, she is presented with the scenario from the pilot again - do we strike the Klingons while we have an opportunity, or do we uphold our principles? She has learnt, through those experiences during the season, through the impact of her first choice, and through her experiences with Tyler, that she cannot allow fear to rule her choice when it comes to the Klingons. So this time, she makes the choice to do the right thing. It's one thing to argue for compassion and righteousness in the abstract, or when you are relatively objective. It is quite another to turn to the people who butchered your parents while you listened as a child and say no, I refuse to kill you, I refuse to become you. That's the payoff for her arc, this decision, not her generally being a nice person - one assumes she was quite pro-Starfleet values in general before the Battle of the Binary Stars, to have ended up Georgiou's XO.

 

[fireproof78]

Burnham has been willing to step up for her values from day one. First it was her value to "shoot first" in the pilot - which was a bad decision for her personally, but from what we see onscreen, would have potentially averted the war. Later it's to free the tartigrade, save MU Georgiou, then stand up to the Federation when everyone (except for her) is willing to go along with genocide. From where I stand, she basically just kept following her heart until the writers decided that rather than blowing up in her face, her decisions would start being the correct ones.

Doesn't make it "garbage writing." Makes her far more real for me.

 

[Hythlodeus]

This isn't admirals going rogue. This is the entire leadership of Starfleet going rogue.

which, of course, also has happened many, many times before

 

[Mudd]

There were no "tacked-on" episodes. Discovery's writers/producers knew they were getting 15 episodes long before it was publicly announced, and planned accordingly.

You can't prove it by the way they plotted this, sorry.

 

[Mudd]

"Contrivance," "big asspull" - you're good with the words, eschaton.

 

[Refuge]

Where do I start with what was wrong with the denouement of the season?

1. The nearly canon-breaking decision to have Klingon ships in the effin Solar System. Martok said in DS9 the Klingons never even tried to attack Earth directly. Of course, this can be retconned that Klingons suppressed the knowledge because it's viewed as a failure, but still, they didn't need to do this.
2. The idea that the Federation would willingly attempt genocide, and no one (aside from Very Special Burnham) thought it was a bad idea.
3. The idea that blowing up Qo'noS would stop the Klingon assault - that they would all just reteat back home to airlift the survivors rather than destroy Earth first in fury.
4. That Burnham convinced Admiral Cornwell of the wrongness of the decision just due to sheer force of will
5. That Burnham convinced MU Georgiou to stand down, mainly because she intuited that Georgiou wouldn't kill her. She's from the freaking MU and was willing to kill Burnham only a few episodes ago. It made no sense.
6. That the Discovery crew trusted L'Rell with the bomb - someone who in the exact same episode was perfectly fine with the Federation being destroyed.
7. That L'Rell basically told the Klingon houses "I have a bomb that will blow up Qo'noS if you don't do what I say" and they all believed her.
8. That Burnham was considered a hero, when for all we know the withdrawl of Klingon forces was just a temporary reprieve.

There were aspects of last night's episode I liked, like the Ash/Burnham closure, and the exploration of the "Orion embassy." But man, the war was wrapped up with some lazy garbage writing.

That is so well written. Still laughing at Very Special Burnham. So glad they didn't reinstate her because that would've have been really ... oops

Juvenile writing with zero respect or intent to have a plot line that was supposed to follow through showing consequence. Burnham and Lorca and even Georgiou were designed with a beginning and an endgame for the season. That is basic. However making sense of the middle has been misdirection after misdirection. Lorca could've tapped danced naked throughout his 'arc' for all it mattered he was destined to die and with so much integrity and dignity! Burnham could've done any absurd nonsense from when we first saw her. She was never intended to be taken seriously for her actions because at the end of the day her place as a character was safe.

 

[lawman]

I suspect that the "two extra episodes" wound up being used to extend the MU mini-arc. Kurtzman has said that the war's ending was (basically) plotted from the beginning, but the one thing we know was changed from the show's original concept was making Lorca a MU native. I could be wrong of course, but it's reasonable to infer that in a 13-episode version of the season, we would never have spent more than two in the MU, would never have met Emperor Georgiou, and would never had Lorca revealed as an impostor, instead having him stick around to the end and fill the antagonist role regarding what to do to Qo'nos.

And all things considered, I probably would have liked that version better.

 

[fireproof78]

That is so well written. Still laughing at Very Special Burnham. So glad they didn't reinstate her because that would've have been really ... oops

Juvenile writing with zero respect or intent to have a plot line that was supposed to follow through showing consequence. Burnham and Lorca and even Georgiou were designed with a beginning and an endgame for the season. That is basic. However making sense of the middle has been misdirection after misdirection. Lorca could've tapped danced naked throughout his 'arc' for all it mattered he was destined to die and with so much integrity and dignity! Burnham could've done any absurd nonsense from when we first saw her. She was never intended to be taken seriously for her actions because at the end of the day her place as a character was safe.

She will be an inspiration for Kirk then

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[Vger23]

The episodes that seemed most "tacked on" (meaning not really essential to the arc) were "Magic" and "Lethe"...both of which I thought, ironically, were very good episodes.

 

[Vger23]

She will be an inspiration for Kirk then

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I don't think it was intended as such...I genuinely think it was intended as an homage...but I don't think there's many scenes in the franchise that make me want to vomit in my mouth as much as this one.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think it was intended as such...I genuinely think it was intended as an homage...but I don't think there's many scenes in the franchise that make me want to vomit in my mouth as much as this one.

It was a joke, largely based on the fact that Kirk is so venerated and yet did worse than Burnham.

 

[Vger23]

It was a joke, largely based on the fact that Kirk is so venerated and yet did worse than Burnham.

Oh, don't worry, I understood what YOU were trying to do.

I just think what the writers were trying to do with this scene (throw fans a wonderful referential bone) failed miserably because it comes off as Janeway basically saying Kirk and co. were a bunch of clowns who would never cut it in the more evolved, mature and morally superior 24th century.

 

[Hythlodeus]

it comes after as Janeway basically saying Kirk and co. were a bunch of clowns who would never cut it in the more evolved, mature and morally superior 24th century.

not that she's wrong, but to be fair to Janeway, it was almost an hour after she had her last coffee when she said that

 

[Vger23]

not that she's wrong, but to be fair to Janeway, it was almost an hour after she had her last coffee when she said that

I suppose that's fair...

 

[Ceridwen]

I just think what the writers were trying to do with this scene (throw fans a wonderful referential bone) failed miserably because it comes off as Janeway basically saying Kirk and co. were a bunch of clowns who would never cut it in the more evolved, mature and morally superior 24th century.

She's also wrong; she's describing a pop-culture pastiche of Kirk, not the man we actually saw in the series.

 

[Dr. Bashirs protege]

This isn't admirals going rogue. This is the entire leadership of Starfleet going rogue. Mostly because they want to set up for a dramatic ending where everything is saved by the One True Burnham. Thus in order to make her very, very right, everyone else must be very, very wrong.



Do you seriously think it would sound convincing for her to say to Starfleet "I'm going to convince Georgiou to give me the detonator, then hand it to this Klingon fanatic in exchange for assurances that she'll get the troops pulled back?" She needed to say something more concrete, IMHO, to get the offical Starfleet "pardon" or whatever Georgiou got.



But MU Georgiou almost did kill Burnham in Vaulting Ambition when she thought it was the MU Burnham who betrayed her. She only stopped once Burnham spilled the beans on being from the Prime Universe! She was ready to kill her literal adopted daughter - why wouldn't she kill someone who just looks like her?



We didn't really see any interaction between Tyler and L'Rell in this episode, so this is just headcanon.



Bluffing your way to winning an election is different from bluffing your way into being in total control of a race where people routinely murder their political enemies.



You're assuming I think that movie is good.

Going to address the MU philipa not killing PU Burnham. Ironically simple logic dictates her not killing Burnham. As an empress in her empire she can do whatever the bleep she wants, but as a persona non grata in the prime universe who just got granted clemency....what's the advantage or even reason behind killing Burnham? She'd just get hunted down the rest of her days by Starfleet. Now the counter argument is she could kill her, leave and well...their will be no Starfleet left to hunt her down. True....but remember as much as she hates the federation there's no friggen way she wants the Klingons to win, she is xenophobic afterall.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Where do I start with what was wrong with the denouement of the season?

1. The nearly canon-breaking decision to have Klingon ships in the effin Solar System. Martok said in DS9 the Klingons never even tried to attack Earth directly. Of course, this can be retconned that Klingons suppressed the knowledge because it's viewed as a failure, but still, they didn't need to do this.

I doubt the Klingons teach their children about failed wars in their history classes. Especially one that might be seen as dishonorable by later generations. Keeping the Empire strong and united seems to hold more honor than victory in war.

2. The idea that the Federation would willingly attempt genocide, and no one (aside from Very Special Burnham) thought it was a bad idea.

You mean like all those episodes and movie where some Starfleet Admiral told Picard to do something that went against Federation ideals causing him and the crew to reject them and do the right thing and/or make a speech? Oh yeah, that’s different because “reasons?!?” right?

3. The idea that blowing up Qo'noS would stop the Klingon assault - that they would all just reteat back home to airlift the survivors rather than destroy Earth first in fury.

Most species are rather attached to their homeworld. It being threatened in TUC brings them to the bargaining table with the Federation. Losing it would be a huge blow, especially since we were shown how that affected them in the MU.

4. That Burnham convinced Admiral Cornwell of the wrongness of the decision just due to sheer force of will

That and the whole crew standing behind her, refusing to go on with it.

5. That Burnham convinced MU Georgiou to stand down, mainly because she intuited that Georgiou wouldn't kill her. She's from the freaking MU and was willing to kill Burnham only a few episodes ago. It made no sense.

She was shown repeatedly to care for Burnham despite her boasts. She logically knows this Burnham isn’t her daughter, but kept saying how much Burnham would sometimes have some hint of her daughter. If you remember Burnham pointed out that the Terrans acting so savagely was an act to protect themselves. Mirror Georgiou was brutal leader who found genocide perfectly acceptable, but she loved her daughter and a lot of her rage shown was shown to stem from losing her. She’d also be on the run for the rest of her life in an alien universe with no allies or safe haven. She didn’t really have another choice.

6. That the Discovery crew trusted GeorgiouL'Rell with the bomb - someone who in the exact same episode was perfectly fine with the Federation being destroyed.

She wanted the Klingon houses united, she thought the way to achieve that was war with the Federation. She was shown to be wrong, so she went with the other option to unite them after being inspired by Tyler/Voq who got her started on the idea to begin with.

7. That L'Rell basically told the Klingon houses "I have a bomb that will blow up Qo'noS if you don't do what I say" and they all believed her.

Yeah and? Klingons seem pretty bound by honor. Lying about a threat is probably a major no-no to the point where it’s unthinkable. Plus she was holding the detonator, a simple scan would have comfirmed it. Did you need a scene where they sent some guys on a fact finding mission to investigate her claims?

8. That Burnham was considered a hero, when for all we know the withdrawl of Klingon forces was just a temporary reprieve.

Earth was about to get attacked. Worst case scenario they have time to rebuild forces and protect their worlds from future attacks. Plus as we are shown in TOS, TNG, DS9 and the movies, peace between the Federation and Klingons is pretty fragile.

There were aspects of last night's episode I liked, like the Ash/Burnham closure, and the exploration of the "Orion embassy." But man, the war was wrapped up with some lazy garbage writing.

I felt the war could have lasted another season, but it worked. Especially as a wrap to Burnham’s arc of being the only mutineer in Starfleet to a hero who saved Earth and the Federation by taking a stand for what they represent instead of doing the wrong thing to save themselves.

 

[The Wormhole]

I thought the "two extra episodes" was simply a by-product of the Shenzhou storyline being re-worked. Originally, the show was to begin with Michael's prison transport needing to be picked up by Discovery, with the events of The Vulcan Hello and Battle at the Binary Stars being told as flashbacks over the course of the season. Then the decided against this and instead the storyline was turned into two episodes that ended up serving as the show's pilot episode.