The end of Kurn (brainwashing)
- Thread starter NewHeavensNewEarth
- Start date
Ok, let's shoot down Gene's vision again:
Gene called to visit with me [Melinda Snodgrass]. As he began to talk about my episode [Measure of a Man], one of the things he said to me was, “There are no lawyers in the 24th century, because we don’t need them. We have other means to get people’s heads right, to make them behave.” And he said, “Also, Data would be delighted to be dissected!”
In the so-called utopia, individuals surrender themselves to the state without concern for losing life, let alone consciousness, for virtually any whim. What we see in DS9 is a fair sight better, IMO. Indeed, I would be afraid that whatever Gene Roddenberry would have suggested for this script would be nothing short of a nightmare.
The 'Federation law' defense forgets a basic tenet of DS9. It wasn't Sisko's station, it was the Bajorans' station. It's entirely possible Federation law respects this sort of things from other cultures while Bajoran law does not. That would explain any difference between Sisko and Picard's handling of things.
And it's worth pointing out that the two rituals are not the same. Kurn wasn't going to use the knife on himself, he wanted Worf to kill him. That's another reason why the reactions may be different.
I am talking about practical things like in the 24th century it would be impossible to beat someone up with leaving your DNA all other that person and conversely without being drenched in that person's DNA. It should be very easy in fact to get an objective proof that Martok's son is the guilty party, regardless of Garak willingness to drop the charges. It's also likely that the station's sensors have recorded everything that happened.
On TNG, for example, the computer seems capable of telling at all times how many people are on the ship, so why won't that stupid computer alert the people in charge when one of these people suddenly disappears in the middle of the night? Why would a supercomputer of unimaginable power have the IQ of a potted plant?
I accept that Bajoran law may have been an issue, but if someone's going to cite Federation law as the issue, I'm going to point out the contradiction.
I suppose one could just as easily argue that Federation law had changed in the meantime, though.
The big difference what Worf attempted in "Ethics" and "SONS OF MOGH" is simple... Worf was going to commit suicide in the former, murder in the latter.
Picard, though he may not agree with Worf's decision, respects his culture and views, and I understand why he said what he did to Will. Frankly, if I were in Worf's shoes at that time, I would have done the same thing.
Worf attempted to kill his brother under Sisko's watch. It's quite a different matter to end your own life by choice than ending someone else's, whether they ask for it or not. I think that's why with legal assisted suicides, only the patient can push the button or swallow the drug, for lack of bettsr terms.
Picard, though he may not agree with Worf's decision, respects his culture and views, and I understand why he said what he did to Will. Frankly, if I were in Worf's shoes at that time, I would have done the same thing.
Worf attempted to kill his brother under Sisko's watch. It's quite a different matter to end your own life by choice than ending someone else's, whether they ask for it or not. I think that's why with legal assisted suicides, only the patient can push the button or swallow the drug, for lack of bettsr terms.
The one thing I always noted about this episode is that Kurn is exactly correct when he tells Worf that Worf made decisions that would affect both him and Kurn, and their name. However, I agree with the OP that this is kind of a cop-out, and I agree that Kurn likely would eventually discover that there was something not right about his situation.
This seems to me like a distinction without a difference. And I think it's prejudicial to use the term "murder" when Kurn wanted to die. Why does it matter who pushes the button if the end result is the same, especially in the supposedly more enlightened future?
Klingons don't usual seem very introspective.
It doesn't matter unless his IQ has dropped dramatically, sooner or later, he's bound to notice that things don't add up, at which point he'll wonder why people are lying to him (maybe to make him do something dishonorable). Intelligence is not something you can suppress when you have it.
I'm assuming that the only reason Picard ever reprimanded Worf in the first place was because Worf was technically still on duty when he killed Duras. If Worf had done it while on leave, that might have let him off the hook...hell, it may have even gone down like this:
Worf: Captain, request permission to go off duty. I have to kill Duras now.
Picard: Permission granted. Qapla'!
It was when Worf took off his communicator. He essentially went AWOL. Had he not done that, I very much think Picard would have done nothing. But Picard does follow regulations pretty much to the letter, and in this way his hands were tied.
My wife made an observation about Worf while watching DS9. She thinks that given how often it seems Worf causes trouble or issues on DS9, she finds it odd why Sisko hasn't thrown him off the station. (And looking at it objectively, she DID have a point. His interfering with Odo's investigation, his attempt to kill Kurn, his attack on Toman'torax, the bar fight with O'Brien, incident on Risa...) While most of these can be defended, most bosses/leaders would very well have no choice but to let someone like that go, despite being a grwat worker. In a sense, she reinforced WHY Sisko is the best captain of the franchise because he recognized all the good Worf does and how valuable he is on the whole.
Worf was a good officer on TNG, but he got better development and growth on DS9 in 4 years than he got in 7 on TNG. He didn't have quite the growing pains on TNG that he had on DS9, partly due to the different atmosphere of it being not fully Starfleet.
Honestly, if Worf killed Duras while on Sisko's watch, in the same circumstances, I actually think he wouldn't have gotten a reprimand. Sisko is much more likely to bend the rules than Picard. And while I still think Picard is a GREAT captain, he is more suited to an idyllic setting, while Sisko is better suited in less than ideal settings.
My wife made an observation about Worf while watching DS9. She thinks that given how often it seems Worf causes trouble or issues on DS9, she finds it odd why Sisko hasn't thrown him off the station. (And looking at it objectively, she DID have a point. His interfering with Odo's investigation, his attempt to kill Kurn, his attack on Toman'torax, the bar fight with O'Brien, incident on Risa...) While most of these can be defended, most bosses/leaders would very well have no choice but to let someone like that go, despite being a grwat worker. In a sense, she reinforced WHY Sisko is the best captain of the franchise because he recognized all the good Worf does and how valuable he is on the whole.
Worf was a good officer on TNG, but he got better development and growth on DS9 in 4 years than he got in 7 on TNG. He didn't have quite the growing pains on TNG that he had on DS9, partly due to the different atmosphere of it being not fully Starfleet.
Honestly, if Worf killed Duras while on Sisko's watch, in the same circumstances, I actually think he wouldn't have gotten a reprimand. Sisko is much more likely to bend the rules than Picard. And while I still think Picard is a GREAT captain, he is more suited to an idyllic setting, while Sisko is better suited in less than ideal settings.
Also the episode where Worf lets the informant die to save his wife, and when Sisko asks for an explanation, he begins quoting Klingon mythology. And then Jadzia dies a few short episodes later.
Even though DS9 did sometimes give better development to Worf, they essentially repeated most or all of his development on TNG, starting with resetting the character.
Even though DS9 did sometimes give better development to Worf, they essentially repeated most or all of his development on TNG, starting with resetting the character.
I can see why you say a reset, but I look on it more as going from one kind of job to another kind, which is exactly what Worf did. He was Security Chief for 7 years, which is a good chunk of his career. That's a hard mentality to break when switching over to command, and it showed. Some things may have been repeated, but I think the setting made it work for him in a better way.
I know this isn't necessarily a popular opinion, but I think they didn't do good service to Worf's character on DS9. The only times where I really felt he was used well was his relationship with Dax, and also with Martok.
That's like more than half of his screen time on DS9, so...
Unpopular Opinion: The Dominion seemed able to transport anything over lightyears through anything, e.g. shields. They could have filled DS9 with Jems in a matter of minutes and then completely taken over the station. When you give extraordinary powers to the villains you have to assume the consequences.
Similar threads
