The distinction between computers, machines, synths, holograms and sentient A.I.

[dinzy]

Timo,

That is 100% false. And you know it. No, all TV is not dumb, lazy and stupid. All plots in all shows are not equally bad, or all with no explanation. Likewise, all novels, short stories and plays are not the same. They arent all dumb, silly or poorly explained. I dont understand your tendency to defend Trek no matter what. As if it is your team, and you just have to carry water for it and no criticism of it is ever justified.

Picard Season 1 is what 9 hours long? They cannot possibly explain every minute detail on screen. We have no clue whether or not the details that have been omitted were not considered. In some cases details may reside in cut dialog, notes or, as you suggest lazily not stated or considered. If you can really find an example of a show/movie that gives reasons for all the small questions that people may ask, please offer it up.

My comment above does not imply that there is not a quality consideration in omitted details and while I enjoy the modern Trek, I agree that there are details that I would like to see revealed or in some cases revealed as something else entirely.

The details about Soji, Dahj, Jana and the other male android's biological bodies may be revealed in some way when they discuss transferring the mind into the golem. Others have postulated that they are all biological but chose to look like Data. But why do we need more details. It is fantasy sci-fi. Some of these androids have positronic brains ( an absurdity in reality) and flesh, and super strength. Why do we need a made up in world science / fantasy based reason for this detail?

 

[valkyrie013]

Well, a Slave is someone who doesn't have a choice in where they work, or where they live.. The workers are there because they want to ( Or don't want to but need work) they have a choice.. The Synth doens't have a choice, he's created and told to go here and work, he has no choice..
Now I don't know what type of cognigtive functions it has, maybe something like a 5 year old's. but sorry.. still slave labor.. Just like the Exo Comps were..

Now there have been a TON of Trek with with Ai and androids.. and Picard's thing of man Vs Androids IS a very tired old trope Have to kill the androids before the uprising, or Have to kill the Organics before they rise up.. just.. crap..

 

[Timo]

That doesn't make much sense. Riker went where he was told. When he didn't, he got punished. That's not slavery, that's labor.

Being five years old is slavery? Sure, I've got a slave at home. He'll be no more or less a slave in ten or twenty or fifty years; the forms will perhaps change a bit, but he won't enjoy absolute freedom, and will have limited choice in whatever he does.

We have no idea what choice F8 had. If he opted not to work at Mars, then we would not have seen him there, so that doesn't help much. Perhaps he was a slave for those couple of seconds when he helped kill Mars. Perhaps he made a choice there, too. But as far as I can tell, he was at worst a slightly stupid person being employed alongside smarter ones. Is that exploitation or empowering? Men today fight over that one. And apparently the fight isn't over in the 2380s yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[serabine]

1. Why are "synths" - sentient beings - used for slave labour work on Mars?
2. Why are holograms - clearly capable of A.I. as well (see: the Doctor) - not treated like synths as well?
3. What's the differentiation between "synths" and super-computers like holodecks or ship's main computers?

1) What gave you the impression the synths on Mars were sentient? You keep using AI as if that is synonymous with self awareness and sentience. Which it is not. There's a whole spectrum of AI that comes long before that. You know what is using true AI today, and which you wouldn't in your wildest dreams confuse with a sentient being? Modern high end Roombas, with learning capabilities, the ability to record and interpret data from sensor input, and complex decision trees. From what was shown on screen nothing indicated the Synths were sentient, and since the Federation wouldn't enslave sentient beings I'm willing to bet there were saveguards in place to keep them non sentient. I mean, not even their "uprising" seemed to have been anything but someone hacking them and overriding their security protocols.

2) Well, for one thing they aren't ambulatory. By their very nature they are confined to specific rooms outfitted with the relevant technology, and they can be easily dismissed (unless the Enterprise casually, and inexplicably, creates Moriarty, that is). So, a hologram is less likely to grab a gun and hunt you down, and can't exactly go on the run if it goes rogue (Voyager had to come up with a ship crewed by holograms to get around this, but again, if the ship gets fucked up, the holograms can't simply abandon it and go somewhere else. An android could). And again, they are potentially capable of sentience, but that doesn't mean they have it. The vast majority of holodeck creations we meet are preprogrammed puppets who know nothing of their holographic nature, and aren't programmed for self-improvement, or even run long enough to potentially develop anything of that sort.

3) Technically? Probably very little in the way of hardware, but a lot more in the way of programming. Form follows function. An android like Data is programmed for integration with humans, and to learn and to mimic and to self-improve in pursuit of that goal. The ship is not.

Case against the mars synths being sentient: SF just keeps an army of sentient slave labor on ice even after Picard won Data's case in court?

Louvois made it very clear in her ruling that it applies to Data only, and is not to be seen as a definitive ruling on the rights of artificial beings.

 

[Tarek71]

He's responding to your specific use of "they didn't explain how Soji has super-strength despite having organic bone and muscle" as an "unexamined plot point". It isn't, because it's not a plot point unless we're in a show about how you create super-beings. It's a technical point we don't need to know.

In that post I was making an observation of what the harsher critics of Kurtzman as a writer/showrunner/franchise runner say about him. I think it is fair up to a point, but I dont think you can put this all on Kurtzman in this case. Timo responded with some claims that were absolutely bonkers, so let's separate that from what you are saying here.

The next paragraph of that post (discussing synth/organic muscle tissue, etc) continued an ongoing conversation dealing with the thread topic. What is a "synth"? Is it synthetic production or synthetic compostion? Since the show establishes a ban on them, distinguishing them would be necessary. Computer AI? Cyborgs like Geordi and Seven? All robots? Are Exocomps banned? Androids? Holo-People? Bio-synths? I assume Soji is this last catergory, but that is never made clear.

In addition, how bio-synths are different from an augment is not clear. The latter were makeable with 21st century tech, yet Synths are apparently hard to achieve with 24th Cent tech. Why this is described as difficult to achieve with 24th Cent tech is mysterious. We arent far from it in 2020. 3-D bio-printing is advancing quickly. But expect no explanations here. Because it is lazy and poorly written and not well informed about current science, which science fiction of even the softer kind ought to be.

But that is also why I say you cannot put this on Kurtzman entirely. Previous Trek for decades tried to say that Data was unique when he should not have been. Or that no one knows how to make a new one when they could do so easily since they have replicator tech, and sensors that scan to the sub-stomic scale, etc. And each could be different not just a copy of Data. Kurtzman didnt invent this problem, but he worsens it considerably, for some of the reasons mentioned above.

The specific discussion about bio-synths having super powers (again, that's an Augment), was relevant since having far denser muscle, bone and tendon would make you easy to find with sensors and tricorders. That's a problem when you are on the run. It also makes "activating" an odd idea. You would be much heavier than a person your size should be. Much heavier. Hard not to notice that in your everyday life. And super strength and speed would be something you had all the time, it would not be something you could turn off. But that is mainly relevant to the idea that they could spend years not knowing what they were. They could have addressed that, but did not.

A complete incoherence in defining "synths" is what we are getting at and that along with the other issues above, are not about "technical point(s) we dont need to know". It's central to the show's season arc, it's setting, it's plausibility, etc.

 

[Tarek71]

Picard Season 1 is what 9 hours long? They cannot possibly explain every minute detail on screen. We have no clue whether or not the details that have been omitted were not considered. In some cases details may reside in cut dialog, notes or, as you suggest lazily not stated or considered. If you can really find an example of a show/movie that gives reasons for all the small questions that people may ask, please offer it up.

My comment above does not imply that there is not a quality consideration in omitted details and while I enjoy the modern Trek, I agree that there are details that I would like to see revealed or in some cases revealed as something else entirely.

The details about Soji, Dahj, Jana and the other male android's biological bodies may be revealed in some way when they discuss transferring the mind into the golem. Others have postulated that they are all biological but chose to look like Data. But why do we need more details. It is fantasy sci-fi. Some of these androids have positronic brains ( an absurdity in reality) and flesh, and super strength. Why do we need a made up in world science / fantasy based reason for this detail?

Well it is not about "minute details". Why are Cyborgs not banned? Icheb, Geordi, Hugh, Seven. You can have implants that give enhanced ability, but you cannot achieve enhancements through gene editing? Why is that? It's hard to make synths with 24th C tech. Why? It would be childs play with their existing tech. Synths now banned. What is a synth exactly? Augments are banned. That doesnt mean they jail or euthanize people like Bashir, but doing it is illegal. But cybernetic implants are not? There are incoherencies, implausibilites and other head scratchers here that are all unforced errors.

It's not that they didn't have time. It wouldnt take much time at all. It's not clear that they ever thought any of this through. That's the criticism I refenced earlier. It will get all the way to the end, and any such explanations never do come. We'll see.

 

[nicholasm]

Well it is not about "minute details". Why are Cyborgs not banned? Icheb, Geordi, Hugh, Seven. You can have implants that give enhanced ability, but you cannot achieve enhancements through gene editing? Why is that? It's hard to make synths with 24th C tech. Why? It would be childs play with their existing tech. Synths now banned. What is a synth exactly? Augments are banned. That doesnt mean they jail or euthanize people like Bashir, but doing it is illegal. But cybernetic implants are not? There are incoherencies, implausibilites and other head scratchers here that are all unforced errors.

It's not that they didn't have time. It wouldnt take much time at all. It's not clear that they ever thought any of this through. That's the criticism I refenced earlier. It will get all the way to the end, and any such explanations never do come. We'll see.

Cyborgs aren't banned because they're not synthetic organisms.
Perhaps implants are okay because they don't carry the memory of the Eugenics War. They're only seen as a tool (which can be removed, something that's much harder to do with genes).
From what we've seen of Data in STT, he's a good bit more complicated than a standard computer. Maybe its miniaturizing the tech to fit inside a human-sized body that's so prohibitive.

 

[fireproof78]

Well it is not about "minute details". Why are Cyborgs not banned? Icheb, Geordi, Hugh, Seven. You can have implants that give enhanced ability, but you cannot achieve enhancements through gene editing? Why is that? It's hard to make synths with 24th C tech. Why? It would be childs play with their existing tech. Synths now banned. What is a synth exactly? Augments are banned. That doesnt mean they jail or euthanize people like Bashir, but doing it is illegal. But cybernetic implants are not? There are incoherencies, implausibilites and other head scratchers here that are all unforced errors.

It might be an unforced error, but Bashier's comment about the Federation's fear of another Khan is striking. As well as Dr. Phlox's attitude towards cybernetic enhancements.

What we have see of the Federation is that many things are very reactionary, very fear based, when comes to certain aspects that they cannot control. Genetic Engineering appears to be one that they tried to control (i.e. in "Unnatural Selection") only for it to spiral out of control (i.e. the death of a ship's entire crew). Cybernetics are things that very rarely go wrong as demonstrated by Geordi.

Synths appear to be a very different style of tech that they are still figuring out if they can control. And the attack proved they couldn't so we had a "fear of another Khan" type response.

 

[TedShatner10]

Hard to say. Soji seemed more like a Replicant from Blade Runner. Not sure how these bio-synths differ from the augments.

I think Soji's people are more like Westworld androids - superficially biomechanical but still very technological/digital below the surface at their core, not augmented clones.

EDIT: those giant flowers are biomechanical but still act like space ships at their core.

 

[Tarek71]

I think Soji's people are more like Westworld androids - superficially biomechanical but still very technological/digital below the surface at their core, not augmented clones.

EDIT: those giant flowers are biomechanical but still act like space ships at their core.

I assumed that the Flower ships were bio-ships of some kind. The whole swallowed by petals instead of a tractor beam seemed a bit silly though. A message telling them to come to the surface would have made sense, rather than a forced landing by pulling them down. Pretty nutty.

Yes, maybe we will learn more next week about what exactly Soji is. I don't think it is a terminator situation, with a complete functional robot surrounded by living tissue. But there could be some synthetic machine parts in there. Who knows. We dont even have a clear definition of what exactly a "synth" is. Who qualifies. What characteristics.

 

[Tarek71]

It might be an unforced error, but Bashier's comment about the Federation's fear of another Khan is striking. As well as Dr. Phlox's attitude towards cybernetic enhancements.

What we have see of the Federation is that many things are very reactionary, very fear based, when comes to certain aspects that they cannot control. Genetic Engineering appears to be one that they tried to control (i.e. in "Unnatural Selection") only for it to spiral out of control (i.e. the death of a ship's entire crew). Cybernetics are things that very rarely go wrong as demonstrated by Geordi.

Synths appear to be a very different style of tech that they are still figuring out if they can control. And the attack proved they couldn't so we had a "fear of another Khan" type response.

We are at a point of Trek being so out of step with the real world tech that we might be sitting watching Trek episodes 30 yrs from now with a Data level android sitting there watching with us. It is the opposite with Warp Speed. That seems like an innovation that will occur way past 2063 (if ever) whereas Data (C3PO, Hal 9000) level AI might well be before 2063. Certainly long, long before the 24th Century.

The easiest Retcon is to say that all augmentations of human capacity, and AIs and robots with enhanced abilities, were banned at the same time genetic augmentation was. I dont see how else you get there with what we are seeing today. The research is stopped cold. Airiam and Geordi, you can rationalize as being for medical reasons. Whereas elective cybernetic enhancements are not allowed.

If you ask for your healthy, functional arms to be cut off so they can give you bionic ones with enhanced capability, that request would be denied. Of course, with 3D printing, you could repair without enhancement. Geordi could have organic eyes that are only as good as normal healthy human eyes. But lets give them that one. It would also help explain the black market in Borg implants. The Feds ban elective cybernetic enhancements, but you can find them illicitly on the black market, the same way Mr and Mrs Bashir did with genetic enhancements for Jr.

 

[fireproof78]

The easiest Retcon is to say that all augmentations of human capacity, and of AIs and robots with enhanced abilities, were banned at the same time genetic augmentation was. I dont see how else you get there with what we are seeing today. The research is stopped cold. Airiam and Geordi, you can rationalize as being for medical reasons. Whereas elective cybernetic enhancements are not allowed.

This might very well be, given the Federation's knee jerk reactionism.

 

[Tarek71]

This might very well be, given the Federation's knee jerk reactionism.

Yes. And why fortunes in latinum are being made in the trade of Borg implants. The Feds banned elective enhancement, but many still want them.

We could go further with the Retcon and say that WW3 was not "The Allies" vs "The Augments". We have heard about "factions" that existed. Maybe some nations in the 2040s/50s used robot soldiers with sophisticated AIs, while others used human super soldiers with bionic implants. Maybe there was even a Skynet like AI threat? Maybe some factions didnt use drugs to control troops like we saw from 2079. Some may have used implanted chips, etc.

We are way out in the weeds of speculative head-canon here, but it would be possible to add some back story to the broader bans on human enhancement and advanced AI/robots.

 

[Rahul]

Well it is not about "minute details". Why are Cyborgs not banned? Icheb, Geordi, Hugh, Seven. You can have implants that give enhanced ability, but you cannot achieve enhancements through gene editing? Why is that? It's hard to make synths with 24th C tech. Why? It would be childs play with their existing tech. Synths now banned. What is a synth exactly? Augments are banned. That doesnt mean they jail or euthanize people like Bashir, but doing it is illegal. But cybernetic implants are not? There are incoherencies, implausibilites and other head scratchers here that are all unforced errors.

It's not that they didn't have time. It wouldnt take much time at all. It's not clear that they ever thought any of this through. That's the criticism I refenced earlier. It will get all the way to the end, and any such explanations never do come. We'll see.

I think one large problem is that - both writers and actors haaate info-dumps/exposition scenes (aka "as you know, our scientists created..."-type of dialogue). It's really difficult to write - to describe a complex thing in as few sentences as possible - and pretty boring to perform. Old Trek is kinda' famous for them. But that's the reason why the current ilk of writers like to excise them entirely from their scripts and focus on the "meat" of the story/emotion.

The problem is of course - for SF to explore ideas, you need to explain them in the first case. Like, "The Matrix", "Jurrassic Park" and "Blade Runner" are all like 70% exposition, the"real" action starts only in the final act.

But if you don't do exposition dumps - you're stuck with only ever writing about stuff people already know. That works in crime, drama, basically everything about human emotions. Because you don't need to explain them.

But if your story is meant to be an exploration about the relationship between humans and robots - you kinda' need to invest like half your time to properly establish what the robots even are. Even if the writers and actors really don't want to. Otherwise you're stuck with a story like PIC, or DIS S2, which feels like your have seen a thousand times already and doesn't add anything to the original concept.

 

[TedShatner10]

I assumed that the Flower ships were bio-ships of some kind. The whole swallowed by petals instead of a tractor beam seemed a bit silly though. A message telling them to come to the surface would have made sense, rather than a forced landing by pulling them down. Pretty nutty.

The space flowers look superficially biological, but like androids, are doing unbiological things like flying up into outerspace and letting off EMP blasts.

And two vessels having a dog fight (followed by fucking Borg cube) of course didn't look friendly to them, so they deployed their defences.

 

[Tarek71]

Like I said, pretty nutty. Giant Android TuIips? Whoa. I want to have been in the writers room when that idea was spit-balled. I assumed bio-ships like 8472 had.

They pull them down to the surface. Not with tractor beams, but using the petals to take a bite and then drag them. Hmmmm. Doing the same to both ships. Maybe in the case of the Cube, it was meant as an attack. IDK. In the process they have now lost all of the Giant Tulips that did the pulling.

I normally prefer writers swing for the fences and try something new. Just go for it. Though sometimes when you swing big, you miss big. Warp 10 Salamanders for instance. This is not on that level of nutty, but it was a pretty bonkers idea.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Orchids.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but you cannot achieve enhancements through gene editing? Why is that?

Khan.

 

[Tarek71]

Khan.

The quote snip leaves out the question. You can be Khan or alot more than Khan through other means. Why would those means, like cybernetic/bionic implants be ok? I think the answer is that they are not ok. Synthetic superhuman bodies, robots, cyborgs are in such short supply in Trekville because they are also banned/highly controlled, at least by the Federation. Geordi and Airiam can have medically related implants, but no elective upgrades.

 

[Tarek71]

I think one large problem is that - both writers and actors haaate info-dumps/exposition scenes (aka "as you know, our scientists created..."-type of dialogue). It's really difficult to write - to describe a complex thing in as few sentences as possible - and pretty boring to perform. Old Trek is kinda' famous for them. But that's the reason why the current ilk of writers like to excise them entirely from their scripts and focus on the "meat" of the story/emotion.

The problem is of course - for SF to explore ideas, you need to explain them in the first case. Like, "The Matrix", "Jurrassic Park" and "Blade Runner" are all like 70% exposition, the"real" action starts only in the final act.

But if you don't do exposition dumps - you're stuck with only ever writing about stuff people already know. That works in crime, drama, basically everything about human emotions. Because you don't need to explain them.

But if your story is meant to be an exploration about the relationship between humans and robots - you kinda' need to invest like half your time to properly establish what the robots even are. Even if the writers and actors really don't want to. Otherwise you're stuck with a story like PIC, or DIS S2, which feels like your have seen a thousand times already and doesn't add anything to the original concept.

All of that is true. Usually an effort is made to work them in thru a method that seems as organic to the situation as possible. Like, hey lets watch this handy video Carol Marcus made that explains what the Genesis Device is! In this case the CSI scenes with Laris and Picard would have been the time to slip it in. If we are going to get an explanation for why the Romulans dont have these things, a line of comparison with Federation practice could been put in there.