The difference between TOS and TNG movies

[Jaro Stun]

Hi,
recently I watched some Trek movies and I've got an idea:

I think I found out, why TOS movies are generally much better accepted and have broader fan-base than TNG movies do.

The TNG movies try to take themselves TOO seriously!
In TOS movies, all the crew seems to have fun, seems to enjoy being out there in the sea of stars.... on the other hand, TNG crew is "just doing their job", they look and feel like they are experiencing just another day in a job, job they like, but still, it's just a work to be done.

Just for the record, I like both TOS and TNG movies, but I don;t like TOS series- it feels too outdated and old for me. However, if the TOS series was remade...maybe after Trek XI, with new look but recapturing the original "fun" spirit of TOS, Trek could get a new life into it's veins.

What do tou think?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

You used movies, plural. There was only ever one TNG movie, The Wrath of Khan, which got remade four times, and was never as good as the original...

Four doomsday scenarios, four villains, four cases of the Ent-D/E crew feeling old.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^I don't think they felt old in FC...

 

[SmoothieX]

The Laughing Vulcan said:
You used movies, plural. There was only ever one TNG movie, The Wrath of Khan, which got remade four times, and was never as good as the original...

Four doomsday scenarios, four villains, four cases of the Ent-D/E crew feeling old.

You know, you pretty much hit that right on the head. I really agree with you.

 

[Anwar]

I don't think FC had much to do with WOK, aside from Picard quoting Moby Dick and even then that was for him to realize what he was doing.

If anything FC is the opposite of WOK, it was about the main protagonist wanting insane revenge on the bad guy.

 

[Computer]

Im starting to wonder if Trekdom decalres any movie that has an antagnoist as a rip off of TWoK.

"Did anyone see a walk to remember?"
Trekdom: "Yea and it was a rip off of TWoK"

To the OP point however as a TNG fan for me the series itself set a very high bar for story telling, I didnt feel the stories being told in the movies (aside from DC) were very compelling in comparison to TNG episodes.

Speaking for myself the reason I consider FC an excellent movie was because it was fun, the story was good and Picards fall from grace with the "I will make them pay" speech was a twist I never expected but beatifully done as to not make it over the top unrealistic.

 

[BriGuy]

Well, Kirk was disobeying orders, ignoring orders, stealing starships, doing things as he wanted, and pretty much NOT doing his job for most of the TOS movies.

 

[DarKush]

I think the TOS movies were better because they had often had a more epic feel and the acknowledgement of the passage of time for the characters/character development. There was also a feeling of shared sacrifice and adventure in the TOS films that I didn't feel in the TNG films.

The only TNG movie that comes close is First Contact in doing the above things. GEN had some good character/camraderie stuff with Picard and the crew as well.

But overall, I never got a real, natural sense of progression for the TNG characters. It seems like they just threw the Troi/Riker marriage and Titan things at us, without developing them enough-except for the hint of renewed romance in Insurrection.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Computer said:
Im starting to wonder if Trekdom decalres any movie that has an antagnoist as a rip off of TWoK.

Only because Berman made a point of comparing the villains (specifically Soran, Ru'afo, and Shinzon) with Khan. And of course, John Logan was practically champing at the bit to tell us how TWOK was his favorite Trek film.

 

[seigezunt]

again, I think the TOS movies are better for me because I care about the characters in ways that I was never inspired to care for the way-too-many TNG characters.

Also, the TNG movies, except for FC to some extent, didn't feel like movies, just extended TV episodes. The best TOS movies had a big cinematic feel.

overall the TNG movies were crap. ST V was pretty crappy too, but the rest were quite entertaining, especially the two directed by Nick Meyer.

 

[Ronald Held]

It may be that the TOS characters are those we care about, more than the TNG ones.
My impression is that the TNG movies were more like made-for TV movies.

 

[Anwar]

That's because there was no real time difference between the TNG TV Series and the TNG movies, unlike the TOS movies which were 14 years after the show.

The 14 year gap allowed for lots of off-screen stuff to happen, like Spock becoming a Captain, Kirk and Admiral, new ship designs, new uniforms, etc (I know they did the last two for TNG) and other background changes.

With TNG there was little to no time change so the chars were all pretty much the same, only on a new ship.

There was also DS9 to worry about. They couldn't do any really big epic stories with lasting consequences without affecting DS9 (if they did something like WOK and introduce a super-weapon like the Genesis Device it would've seriously messed with DS9's story. Same if Earth was attacked by an alien probe or there was a big change in the Fed's status with an antagonist power like the Khitomer Conference).

They couldn't do an arc within the movies since the movies had to be in real-time (every 2 years for us were 2 years in the Trekverse) to stay with DS9 if they wanted to bring Worf back so each movie had to be self-contained.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

cardinal biggles said:

Computer said:
Im starting to wonder if Trekdom decalres any movie that has an antagnoist as a rip off of TWoK.

Only because Berman made a point of comparing the villains (specifically Soran, Ru'afo, and Shinzon) with Khan. And of course, John Logan was practically champing at the bit to tell us how TWOK was his favorite Trek film.

Not to mention that Berman always used TWOK as the model for a successful, both commercial and fan-loved, film as he's stated in interviews for each TNG film. IIRC, Logan in an interview with the defunct Star Trek: Magazine stated that NEM's early drafts had a closer tie to TWOK in which Shinzon was really Picard's lost son from his days on the Stargazer. According to the interview, Picard had an unmentioned wife and son who had been captured during a Romulan attack. In essence, Logan would've combined David Marcus with Khan.

The use of TWOK as the model was what ultimately hurt the TNG films. Yes, TWOK was a great movie but it wasn't the only way to tell an engaging Trek story. The TNG films strayed from the premise of boldly going, which Picard even states in INS ("Remember when we used to be explorers?").

Also, the TOS films had a sense that time was passing for the characters where you didn't get that feel in the TNG movies. It was just season 8,9,10 and 11 in two-hour form.

 

[RoJoHen]

Anwar said:
They couldn't do an arc within the movies since the movies had to be in real-time (every 2 years for us were 2 years in the Trekverse) to stay with DS9 if they wanted to bring Worf back so each movie had to be self-contained.

Considering Worf turned into nothing but poor comic relief in INS and NEM, I'd be okay with him not being there at all.

 

[Doug Otte]

middyseafort said:
The use of TWOK as the model was what ultimately hurt the TNG films. Yes, TWOK was a great movie but it wasn't the only way to tell an engaging Trek story. The TNG films strayed from the premise of boldly going, which Picard even states in INS ("Remember when we used to be explorers?").

I agree. As many others have said, TNG was ultimately mostly character-driven, but in the movies they felt they had to please theatre-goers w/ lots of cool fights and 'splosions. At the end, the TNG characters were almost nothing like their original TV versions, especially Picard.

Yesterday, on a day off work, I watched Nemesis again. As before, I enjoyed some parts of it, especially the effects, set design, etc. However, the characters and events left me cold. Then, I put in TMP. "Let's compare the last Trek film to the first!" I said to the cat, but he just licked his nether regions.

Anyway, TMP was far superior to Nemesis in every respect except action. Most notably, the characters were all faithful to their TV counterparts. I'm saying this as a fan who enjoys TMP but doesn't think it's the best Trek film. For me, that would be the entire trilogy.

And, speaking as a hetero male, TMP is the only time Shatner looked as fit and handsome as he did during the first few episodes of the first season.

Doug

 

[MyCylon]

I've thought about this myself a few times and, for me, it really comes down to this:

Most of the TOS movies feel like an adventure. And that equals fun.

The TNG movies simply don't feel like an adventure. As someone else said, it's just comes across as another day at the office most of the time.
I think FC is easily the best of the bunch but not so much because it feels like an adventure. I find it's a bit too dark for that. It's simply very entertaining from start to finish with some very strong character moments IMHO.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^FC reminded me of why "The Best of Both Worlds" scared me!

 

[MyCylon]

^
Yes, that's probably something that makes both of them attractive: The Borg were actually rather scary. I also think they did a good job on FC "updating" the Borg to make them scary even today.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

^The Borg in FC were freaky.

 

[Bjoern]

In my opinion, the main problem of the TNG movies - with the notable exception of FC - was just poor writing and characterization. Add to that scenes that were intended to be funny but turned out mostly annoying. Just some remarks:

GEN:

• What are Kirk's motivations? In the beginning, he is itching to get back to action there is no sign of him regretting devoting his life to Starfleet the way he did. Once he is in the Nexus, this comes up big time.
• Data is reduced to comic relief with the emotion chip installed.
• The whole scene on the Enterprise-B and especially the reporters and the Tuesday-'joke' is just annoying.

INS:

• Data is restored to his pre-GEN state. WTF, does he run on Windows and needed a reinstall?
• Data and Worf serve hardly any purpose besides corny comic relief.
• An alien colony on a paradise world... very original. But hey, it's paradise and you know what? Everybody looks human in paradise, outside you need liftings and oil.. I mean blood exchanges.

NEM:

• Shinzon's character is just a mess. What drives him to freak out that much? MUST... DESTROY... EARTH...
• That buggy scene is sooooooo futuristic...
• Don't get me started about B4...

All the attempted humour comes across as corny and forced, just like it did in TTF. I feel those TNG movies are more ripoffs of that movie in terms of cheesiness. The characters don't progess, many regress into self-caricatures and stay awfully superficial. The main TOS characters developed. They made mistakes and had wishes, desires, regrets that were believable and drove them. We got to learn something new about them, hell, they even learnt something new about themselves. The ponderous, self-doubting, aging Kirk of TWOK was far, far more believable than the GEN Kirk. The TNG movies had their characters often reduced to their stereotypes. FC was an exception. I loved that Picard was getting obsessed. It made him feel real. Same with data, who seemed to be falling for the queen, who really touched his weak spot. The behaviour of both seemed realistic to me based on what I knew from their past.
It's characters that I care about, not stereotypes. Data's sacrifice in NEM didn't evoke anything in me. I didn't care for what he had become. So he's gone, oh well... *shrug*