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It's a far cry from "there is still work to be done" and "unchecked genocidal shadow gestapo." Maybe if the writers spent more time figuring out how to do the former they wouldn't need to resort to the latter.
I don't know. Maybe it is simply an artistic reflection of the duality of man that Trek has grappled with since Kirk was split in two? I don't see one automatically precluding the other. I mean, even in non-canon Trek works there are organizations that due to dirty work, including by Shatner. At some level those organizations seem to pop up and artistically it seems to be a reflection of humanity's struggle with its own demons and darker impulses.
I don't know. Maybe it is simply an artistic reflection of the duality of man that Trek has grappled with since Kirk was split in two? I don't see one automatically precluding the other. I mean, even in non-canon Trek works there are organizations that due to dirty work, including by Shatner. At some level those organizations seem to pop up and artistically it seems to be a reflection of humanity's struggle with its own demons and darker impulses.
I think it’s the writers falling back on easy tropes. At the end of the day, they’re just cranking out salaried work, not pondering the unknown possibilities of existence. So we get Nazis. Again.
Frankly, I wonder if our lazy fascination with those bygone baddies didn’t contribute to their resurgence.
We need new stories with new heroes and new warnings or we’ll reinterpret old ones because there’s nothing else to be done. Maybe Grendel wasn’t such a bad guy. Or Hitler. And maybe the Federation are worse than the Borg. Fake news?
Using the premise of "THE ENEMY WITHIN" as evidence, the Federation needs a dark side. Or at least, a side more willing to do the dirty work to keep the lawn looking green.
To the subject matter, one example of a dark deed was Admiral Jameson's decision to arm both sides with Starfleet weapons that ended up plunging a world in a 40 year civil war. So 24th century humans were still just as fallible as 23rd century ones, like Captain Tracy.
That's just another example of the franchise's constant insistence of the Federation Way or the Highway. Here we have humans who decide to go it on their own and leave the Federation. As a result, they devolve into complete anarchy with rape gangs. The price you pay for abandoning the shining beacon of civilization that is the Federation!
Eddington's speech comparing the Federation to the Borg contains a lot of truths in it.
I mean colonies fall down all the time. Even in Kirk's day.
The world seceded, as they're allowed to do, and couldn't sustain itself, and thus collapsed. Be it mass starvation lotteries, rape gangs, war, that's just what happens when they collapse.
No real reason was given as to why they collapsed, or why they seceded to begin with, so I won't needlessly ponder. But it's not a far fetch to say that's it not a surprise that colony worlds keel over because they suddenly are cut off from a massive government...?
Far as I'm concerned, the only truth in what Eddington said is that he's an idiot.
Unless there's evidence that worlds are forced to join the Federation against their will...? No? Thought not.
As for Tasha's homeworld: FIrstly, it was never a member of the Federation in the first place, so the question of secession is irrelevant. Second: We have absolutely no idea what made its government collapse. So we really can't blame the Federation for any of this. For all we know, it may have offered to render aid, and was rejected...
Oh, and regarding the secession we weren't discussing:
Look at all those worlds that left the Federation after The Burn. In fact, A LOT of them left - including most of its original founding members, like Earth, Vulcan and Andor! They were allowed to do so, weren't they?
So it's clear that if a world truly wants to leave, they can. Nobody forces any world to stay.
Whether it's regarding JOINING the Federation or LEAVING it, the Federation has the right to make its case, as it were. But the ultimate decision is up to that world.
So, does the Federation have a dark side? I doubt it. It doesn't have to. We've seen no evidence, anywhere, that it does. Section 31 comes close, but IMHO it doesn't qualify. And the "reorientation center" that Kirk spoke of? We know what prisons in the Federation are like, and they're quite humane. Their mere existence is hardly proof of a supposed "dark side". As long as there are sentient beings, there will be prisons...and those in the Federation are about as decent as is possible.
That's just another example of the franchise's constant insistence of the Federation Way or the Highway. Here we have humans who decide to go it on their own and leave the Federation. As a result, they devolve into complete anarchy with rape gangs. The price you pay for abandoning the shining beacon of civilization that is the Federation!
Eddington's speech comparing the Federation to the Borg contains a lot of truths in it.
What are you even talking about here? The colony was allowed to be outside the Federation and some when after that the society devolved into a Mad Max pastiche. So how does this make the Federation like the Borg?
If the Federation was like the Borg, they would have landed troops there, had taken over the colony and brainwashed all its inhabitants into being nice and patriotic federation citizens.
They didn't do that, they allowed them to live after their own fashion and decisions.
If anything they were ridiculously lenient and careless with allowing Tasha's world to remain independent instead of sending a peace keeping force.
In fact I'd call their negligence towards fallen colonies a dark aspect in some ways.
FOX: Is that supposed to mean something?
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.
FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me. You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.
(He leaves.)
So, maybe not grimdark, but very colonial thinking. The Federation wants a treaty port here and come hell or high water they will get a treaty port. To hell with whether the people of Eminiar agree or not. Their opinions are irrelevant.
The Federation wants a treaty port here and come hell or high water they will get a treaty port. To hell with whether the people of Eminiar agree or not. Their opinions are irrelevant.
Using the premise of "THE ENEMY WITHIN" as evidence, the Federation needs a dark side. Or at least, a side more willing to do the dirty work to keep the lawn looking green.
All people have an id (scary Kirk) yet not all people choose to be the same way. The Federation is less Genghis Khan and more George Washington. Less Nazi Germany, more modern Germany; less modern Germany, more the United Federation of Planets.
To the subject matter, one example of a dark deed was Admiral Jameson's decision to arm both sides with Starfleet weapons that ended up plunging a world in a 40 year civil war. So 24th century humans were still just as fallible as 23rd century ones, like Captain Tracy.
I think the idea was that Jameson was a 23rd Century one. That, in fact, he was originally conceived as James Kirk having to deal in his actions in “A Private Little War” and other episodes. It was the US having to deal with its real world practices in foreign countries. And it was sin in the 24th Century too — no one is perfect. But, again, that does not mean that no one gets better, that nations can’t or are all the same, or that any ol’ depiction of them (with unchecked genocidal shadow gestapo) is valid.
Oh, and regarding the secession we weren't discussing:
Look at all those worlds that left the Federation after The Burn. In fact, A LOT of them left - including most of its original founding members, like Earth, Vulcan and Andor! They were allowed to do so, weren't they?
I find it telling that it was after a cataclysmic event that crippled the majority of Starfleet thereby leaving the Federation with no means to enforce its policies that succession of so many worlds occurred. Hell, the Vulcans left because they believed they caused the Burn through dangerous experiments the Federation forced them to conduct even after their warnings that it would lead to disaster.
The Federation as depicted on screen appears to be some sort of military dictatorship. After all, Starfleet apparently has all the power and cover everything in the Federation. Defense, exploration, civic security, it's all done by Starfleet. Hell, when worlds join the Federation, they give up their defense forces and police forces and allow Starfleet to take over both functions. What few things Starfleet doesn't cover, are still state run by the Federation government, like the Federation News Service.
Isn't that largely since 2009, with Alex Kurtzman and his writers confusing the Federation with Starfleet? Because I have a friend who insists that is the case. He also insists that 'Kurtzman Trek' can never have the 'ethos' of all previous Trek shows.
Isn't that largely since 2009, with Alex Kurtzman and his writers confusing the Federation with Starfleet? Because I have a friend who insists that is the case. He also insists that 'Kurtzman Trek' can never have the 'ethos' of all previous Trek shows.
Actually, Trek XI is in fact the exception to the rule with the presence of civilian law enforcement on Earth, the robocop on the hoverbike who tries to pull Kirk over at the start. The implication that Starfleet covers the law enforcement on Earth comes from DS9, when Sisko was stabbed by the Pah Wraith Cultist outside his dad's restaurant, it was Starfleet Security who apprehended the cultist and for that matter, Starfleet Medical personnel were the first responders on scene to tend to Sisko's wounds. Doesn't New Orleans have its own police and EMT personnel to handle that?
Some fans suggest civilian authorities were in fact the first responders and handed the matter over to Starfleet upon learning Sisko was a Starfleet officer, citing the fact that should such a thing happen to an off-duty military officer in the US that's how things would go. But that suggests Starfleet behaves exactly like the US military, which is usually something those very same fans would argue vehemently against.
AFAIK, crimes against/by military personnel being either exclusively or at least jointly investigated by military police is fairly common, the Red Caps and their naval and air counterparts do the same for the British service personnel, and I believe the same is true of most gendarmerie.
Actually, Trek XI is in fact the exception to the rule with the presence of civilian law enforcement on Earth, the robocop on the hoverbike who tries to pull Kirk over at the start.
There's also the plain clothes "Federation Security" official from STIII, which supports the idea of "federal" agencies involved in Security other than Starfleet Security and Starfleet Intelligence (both under the Starfleet Office of the Inspector General during the period per Robert Fletcher's BTS notes on the "Monster Maroons").
AFAIK, crimes against/by military personnel being either exclusively or at least jointly investigated by military police is fairly common, the Red Caps and their naval and air counterparts do the same for the British service personnel, and I believe the same is true of most gendarmerie.
The world seceded, as they're allowed to do, and couldn't sustain itself, and thus collapsed. Be it mass starvation lotteries, rape gangs, war, that's just what happens when they collapse.
Hmh? That's not what happened on Turkana IV. Indeed, the timeline we are told is one of the exact opposite happening.
Fifteen years before the episode, the world had rape gangs - under apparent UFP rule. Then it seceded, or at least told the UFP and its Starfleet to stay away (even if we never learn whether they were there in the first place) and now it has order. Twice as much as it really needs, but it's still better than the anarchy that was there under UFP rule.
As for the plainclothes agent in ST3:TSfS, he delivered McCoy straight to a Starfleet gaol, with arrowhead-badged people standing (or sitting) guard. If McCoy's high treason indeed called for federal-level interdiction, it's probably telling that Starfleet would immediately take over...
We can balance on a rather wobbly tightwire here, arguing case by case that crimes involving our Starfleet heroes get Starfleet treatment. But that doesn't really cover all cases to satisfaction, e.g. the Stabbing at Sisko's one. Is it "dark" that the police would be under the same umbrella as the military? It's rather difficult to argue that this would matter, when the umbrella organization is equally defined as covering exploration and terraforming and whatnot. Sure, the Federation appears extremely militaristic - but the military itself isn't particularly dark or oppressive or aggressive or anything. So the shape of the badge worn by your friendly beat cop or paramedic or mailman really doesn't seem to make a difference.
It's also worth noting that New Sydney seemed to have seceded without any complications. It seemed pretty stable and normal, money related crime existed, but nothing nearly as bad as Tasha's homeworld.
Hmh? That's not what happened on Turkana IV. Indeed, the timeline we are told is one of the exact opposite happening.
Fifteen years before the episode, the world had rape gangs - under apparent UFP rule. Then it seceded, or at least told the UFP and its Starfleet to stay away (even if we never learn whether they were there in the first place) and now it has order. Twice as much as it really needs, but it's still better than the anarchy that was there under UFP rule.
Which would mean that even human colonies (I assume, going by the name here) aren't automatically members of the Federation. Maybe Turkana IV never was either, "severing ties" with the Federation could refer to halting things like supply lines, trade and immigration.
