"The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[davejames]

Silly plot contrivances? You mean like nobody in a hospital noticing a nurse that conspicuously looks like the Joker in drag? Like all the various criminal groups uniting under a "United Colors of Benetton of Organized Crime" banner? Like a school bus driving out of a hole in the side of a bank and conveniently fitting into a handy gap in a procession of other buses, like nothing about that is in the least bit suspicious? Like literally everything going on with Two-Face?

I agree Harvey being able to survive, looking the way he did, was a big stretch, but the other things didn't bother me much. Those were just your typical, run of the mill comic book contrivances.

But the ones in TDKR are silly and ridiculous even by comic book standards. At least to me.

 

[RoJoHen]

I agree Harvey being able to survive, looking the way he did, was a big stretch

I was more bothered by the shot of whiskey that he took that dribbled down his chin. THAT WOULD BURN SO MUCH!

 

[Guartho]

Like a school bus driving out of a hole in the side of a bank and conveniently fitting into a handy gap in a procession of other buses, like nothing about that is in the least bit suspicious?

That one bothered me right off the bat because the bus driver behind would have seen it drive out of the bank and cut in line AND he has a radio connecting him to the bus barn and the other buses.

Actually, it only just now occurred to me that the Joker could have bought-off, intimidated, killed, or otherwise replaced those bus drivers ahead of time. I also suspect that he didn't stay in that bus very long.

 

[RoJoHen]

He also hops on a school bus after the hospital explodes, which drives away as soon as he gets in the back door. Maybe the school buses are run by the mob!

 

[Trekker4747]

It's possible the buses were controlled by The Joker and the line of them was a bit of a "Where's the red card?" trick being played to confuse anyone who might follow him to his destination. There's little to indicate these were active school buses doing regular duty.

 

[C_Miller]

Yeah... I feel like the people treating TDK as some kind of cinematic godhead while simultaneously giving TDKR a grade of "D" or "terrible" need to stare really hard at TDK again. The believability factor aside, pretty much everything you don't like in TDKR was already there in TDK, just maybe at a slightly less obvious level. The "seeds" of these issues were already planted. In this sense the alleged gulf in quality between the two films is largely exaggerated.

Yeah. Those calling DKR overly long was exactly my problem with The Dark Knight. Honestly when it comes to Nolan's Batman, Begins is the only one that is really tightly plotted. Dark Knight Rises was well set up but the pacing between the Acts was shoddy at times. But the Dark Knight had something that few stories can really pull off... a full fourth act. With multiple climaxes. Catching Joker the first time, the death of Rachel/Harvey's change, Catching Joker the second time and then the Death of Two Face. And ultimately, I just get bored.

It also didn't really feel like a Batman movie. One of the real props that I grant Nolan is that he created a comic book movie that was about the hero rather than the villain which in a lot of ways was rare before that. The story of superhero movies were always about a plot conducted by a villain that had to be stopped by the hero and the overall narrative was defined by the villain. Looking at the original Batman films, it was so bad that they are referred to as The Joker movie, the Penguin movie, the Two Face and Riddler movie and so on and so forth.

The Dark Knight kind of fell into that with the movie being dominated, not by the continuation of Bruce Wayne's story but the stories of Harvey Dent and the Joker. Compared to the first movie where the villains played a major backseat and this last film which was mainly about the ongoing struggle of Bruce Wayne, TDK was lacking.

The Killer performance of Heath Ledger really saves the movie.

 

[Trekker4747]

LINK

Spoilers Kevin Smith (a web series on Blip with the famous filmmaker taking a group of people to a new movie and discuss it afterwards) took the opportunity this week to discuss not the movie but the impact on people over the Aurora shootings.

 

[RoJoHen]

I think these movies work better if you think of them as "Gotham" movies rather than "Batman" movies. There was a point in TDKR where I actually started thinking, "So, is Batman even in this movie?"

 

[davejames]

That one bothered me right off the bat because the bus driver behind would have seen it drive out of the bank and cut in line AND he has a radio connecting him to the bus barn and the other buses.

Actually, it only just now occurred to me that the Joker could have bought-off, intimidated, killed, or otherwise replaced those bus drivers ahead of time. I also suspect that he didn't stay in that bus very long.

Yeah, I never assumed he stayed on the bus for very long. All he had to do was get a couple blocks away from the bank and he could have hopped into another vehicle.

Although, as with other scenes, I find it ironic that The Joker talks a lot about "not having a plan" and making it up as he goes, and yet pretty much everything he does in the movie requires a TON of pre-planning for it to work (like the school buses being there at just the right time).

Unless he's just got really good instincts or something.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why would a man who hasn't changed his clothes in three months need a WMD?

 

[Gepard]

^^Everything else the Joker told us about himself was a lie. Why assume he was telling the truth about not having plans? Lying to Harvey about not planning was part of the plan!

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think these movies work better if you think of them as "Gotham" movies rather than "Batman" movies. There was a point in TDKR where I actually started thinking, "So, is Batman even in this movie?"

Well it's really all just a GI Joe Prequel showing us where Cobra Commander got all his inspiration from, but seriously

Spoiler

Bruce is not the titular character.

 

[Aragorn]

Although, as with other scenes, I find it ironic that The Joker talks a lot about "not having a plan" and making it up as he goes, and yet pretty much everything he does in the movie requires a TON of pre-planning for it to work (like the school buses being there at just the right time).

Unless he's just got really good instincts or something.

Joker is just a chronic liar, like with his two stories about how he got his facial scars.

 

[Set Harth]

It's possible the buses were controlled by The Joker and the line of them was a bit of a "Where's the red card?" trick being played to confuse anyone who might follow him to his destination. There's little to indicate these were active school buses doing regular duty.

The sound of children, maybe?

 

[RoJoHen]

^^Everything else the Joker told us about himself was a lie. Why assume he was telling the truth about not having plans? Lying to Harvey about not planning was part of the plan!

I don't think he had "a plan," per se. He had a motive, but I don't think there was ever any end goal for him. There was never going to be a point where the Joker wins. He wanted to fuck with Batman. He wanted to prove that all Good Guys (even the best, most incorruptible ones) have the capacity for evil. He wanted to show Batman that Gotham really wasn't worth saving.

But mostly, I think he just wanted to blow shit up and kill people. Why give the people on the ferries a choice when he was just going to blow them up anyway?

 

[Set Harth]

That one bothered me right off the bat

Very apropos choice of words...

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It's possible the buses were controlled by The Joker and the line of them was a bit of a "Where's the red card?" trick being played to confuse anyone who might follow him to his destination. There's little to indicate these were active school buses doing regular duty.

The sound of children, maybe?

Interesting you pointed that out. The sound of children was added in post production as no children were on any of the buses.

Back to the film, one of the robbers said that "School's out, it's time to go." So the robbery was planned to the minute that the school buses were going to pass that block

 

[Trekker4747]

It's possible the buses were controlled by The Joker and the line of them was a bit of a "Where's the red card?" trick being played to confuse anyone who might follow him to his destination. There's little to indicate these were active school buses doing regular duty.

The sound of children, maybe?

Interesting you pointed that out. The sound of children was added in post production as no children were on any of the buses.

Back to the film, one of the robbers said that "School's out, it's time to go." So the robbery was planned to the minute that the school buses were going to pass that block

Or it could have been a joke/"word play" on how they wanted to present an escape.

 

[Yminale]

I've never heard of TDK being described as a "feel-good movie" before. I thought it was dark and downbeat, and it ends on a much more depressing note than DKR does.

DKR is pretty depressing. If movie watchers paid attention they notice that the Batman didn't really change anything. The people didn't rise up against Bane and they never were really inspired by Batman. They are as apathetic as they were in Batman Begins except their city is in worse shape then before.

Rha al Ghul was right and it's probably why Bruce Wayne gave up and handed the reigns to Blake.

 

[Greg Cox]

FYI: if anyone is interested, io9.com has just posted a sample chapter from the novelization.