Spoilers The Controversial Star Wars Opinion Thread

[Ithekro]

It is sort of a coda to Rogue One as by the that point, all the main characters are dead. It shows what they accomplished in stealing those plans, and how they got out of the system while keeping Vader's description about Leia being his only link to the Rebel base and only the one set of plans to be recaptured. A few ships (like the Ghost) manage to escape before Vader arrived, but they didn't have the plans. There wasn't time to make copies, as that process was in the works as Vader was boarding the flagship. Leia's escape is desperate, as she wasn't part of the original plan (since the plan was thrust onto the Alliance by the Jyn's Rogue One unit). Leia's mission was going to head off to recover Obi-wan Kenobi, but her ship was still docked when the fleet moved out from Yavin IV. The ending places the plans in Leia's hands, adding them to her original mission to get Kenobi. The coda becomes a bridge as A New Hope starts in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Scariff with a desperate Leia finding a way to complete her missions in the face of Darth Vader personally coming to stop her as she entrusts both missions to a droid....

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

People seem to be misunderstanding my point so I shall be blunt: the tone from Rogue One to A New Hope does not work. Vader's attitude doesn't work, Leia's lies doesn't work. It just is incongruous.


People can love Vader's appearance and all the badassness it has. Leia can be brave and bold and I can still find going from Rogue One to A New Hope completely different. It jsut doesn't work for me.

Indeed.

But because the tone and tempo from film to film does not work.

Having Star Wars as a reference for decades and still screw that up shows a remarkable level of incompetence, or a don't-give-a-damn attitude in favor of fanwank.

I don't think it lines up as much as fans are willing to play along with it. I think the text of the film presents a different picture and I think Rogue One, for all its other strengths, misses something at the end to make these pieces line up.

Yes, the "it lines up" argument cannot even pass the easiest test of all: watching the end of R1 and the opening of Star Wars. Some can deny the obvious as much as it suits them, but there is no even, seamless flow of intent and characterization from one film to the other.

Agree to disagree. Whatever you're seeing is being read in to the work. It gives more weight to a secondary character in both films for reasons that escape me.

Agreed.

And, honestly, if that's the whole point of Rogue One then it fails even more so for me now more than ever.

True, and let's be honest, the reference to spies stealing the plans was all anyone ever needed to know about that mission. During the theatrical releases of the OT, no audiences were asking for the spies' story to be told. The Star Wars story was the point and focus of why this galaxy's story mattered.

 

[FredH]

Maybe not saw, but reports of, eyewitness accounts, the general terror of the troops.

All of it is at odds with the tone.

Right at the start of A New Hope, Vader’s forces massacre the remaining Rebels again.

 

[fireproof78]

Right at the start of A New Hope, Vader’s forces massacre the remaining Rebels again.

Yes. But the tone and energy from scene to scene does not match in my humble opinion.

 

[Sketcher]

A New Hope functions very much like a TV pilot in retrospect. I mean this in how its part of this sprawling series, but since it's the first entry and still trying to find its footing, things aren't as refined - ie backstory, sets, locations, hell even Vader's cadence is jarring compared to every other entry. Like many TV pilots, it's hard to look back and make it fit smoothly with the rest of the series.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

A New Hope functions very much like a TV pilot in retrospect. I mean this in how its part of this sprawling series, but since it's the first entry and still trying to find its footing, things aren't as refined - ie backstory, sets, locations, hell even Vader's cadence is jarring compared to every other entry. Like many TV pilots, it's hard to look back and make it fit smoothly with the rest of the series.

^ Now that's a controversial take.

Its not the job of the original--the film that started it all in a series--to fit smoothly with the sequels (or prequels). That's the job of the films and producers who follow to build on what was established, instead of what happens often, where sequels / prequels go off of the rails, or caring not to respect the first chapter's place and setting of the story (yes, I'm looking at you, Star Trek prequels).

 

[Tuskin38]

That's boring.

 

[fireproof78]

A New Hope functions very much like a TV pilot in retrospect. I mean this in how its part of this sprawling series, but since it's the first entry and still trying to find its footing, things aren't as refined - ie backstory, sets, locations, hell even Vader's cadence is jarring compared to every other entry. Like many TV pilots, it's hard to look back and make it fit smoothly with the rest of the series.

Now that's a controversial take but one I do find some agreement with. STAR WARS is a whole different animal, and is actually far more grounded, aside from some minor fantastical elements, than the rest of the franchise that it spawned.

I don't think its terrible jarring, but it does feel like the installment with the most potential that is slowly lost as the world gets explored. But, the biggest highlight of the world is that it feels like it continues on even when the main characters are not on screen.

 

[Set Harth]

STAR WARS is a whole different animal, and is actually far more grounded, aside from some minor fantastical elements

Calling the Force a minor fantastical element is... something?

 

[Sketcher]

A New Hope's version of the Force, yeah. All it was used for were a couple mind tricks and feeling searching. Compare that to the lifting spaceships/teleporting/healing/lightning zapping it became later, I'd call it minor.

 

[fireproof78]

Calling the Force a minor fantastical element is... something?

Ok. Take a look at the whole film and tell me how much the Force factors in, compared to larger more grounded elements. Time wise, the Force doesn't become highly significant until the last act.

A New Hope's version of the Force, yeah. All it was used for were a couple mind tricks and feeling searching. Compare that to the lifting spaceships/teleporting/healing/lightning zapping it became later, I'd call it minor.

Yes, it becomes more important as the narrative progresses and as Luke progresses.

This isn't to take away from the film but to acknowledge how the Force is understood from just a first film perspective, which has been lost over the decades.

 

[Set Harth]

Ok. Take a look at the whole film and tell me how much the Force factors in, compared to larger more grounded elements.

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

And then at the climax the above prophecy is fulfilled. That is the message of the film, which is not particularly grounded. The fantastical defeats the material. It's not a question of runtime.

 

[fireproof78]

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

And then at the climax the above prophecy is fulfilled. That is the message of the film, which is not particularly grounded. The fantastical defeats the material. It's not a question of runtime.

Doesn't make the film less grounded. Especially compared to the rest of the films.

I'm not saying the fantastical isn't apart of it or important. Just they more grounded elements run throughout the film as primary until the end.

 

[fireproof78]

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

And then at the climax the above prophecy is fulfilled. That is the message of the film, which is not particularly grounded. The fantastical defeats the material. It's not a question of runtime.

Doesn't make the film less grounded. Especially compared to the rest of the films.

I'm not saying the fantastical isn't apart of it or important. Just they more grounded elements run throughout the film as primary until the end.

 

[Tuskin38]

I always chalked up the difference in Vader's behaviour in ANH is that the ship is secured in the Star Destroyer, it isn't going anywhere, so he's not in any real hurry.

While in Rogue One, the Tantive IV could launch at any time

 

[David cgc]

Doesn't make the film less grounded. Especially compared to the rest of the films.

I'm not saying the fantastical isn't apart of it or important. Just they more grounded elements run throughout the film as primary until the end.

Yeah. The Force in ANH is much more within the realm of plausibility. You could see things like a spooky awareness of major events, a con-man convincing a mark, or a spiritual grounding and self-confidence allowing someone to excel all in a story set in the real world (heck, in R1, we saw that was about the extent of the abilities a “normal” person could have with a strong spiritual practice in the case of Chirrut). Even the most extreme “Force power,” Vader choking Motti, fits with an early 20th century pulp understanding of hypnosis and “mesmerism,” which could frequently be depicted as psychic powers, with Vader having used the power of suggestion to make Motti feel like he was choking.

I know it wasn’t until well after ESB established that the Force could be used to move things that I considered that “Force Choke” might actually be a physical constriction on the neck and not stopping the victim from breathing because they’re convinced they’re being choked while their actual airway is clear.

 

[Mage]

A New Hope functions very much like a TV pilot in retrospect. I mean this in how its part of this sprawling series, but since it's the first entry and still trying to find its footing, things aren't as refined - ie backstory, sets, locations, hell even Vader's cadence is jarring compared to every other entry. Like many TV pilots, it's hard to look back and make it fit smoothly with the rest of the series.

Agreed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

From what I understand, the Vader hallway scene was added last moment due to audiences at preview screenings not liking the end of the movie.

Despite the cool factor, it doesn't materially improve the film (controversial opinion, perhaps).

A New Hope functions very much like a TV pilot in retrospect. I mean this in how its part of this sprawling series, but since it's the first entry and still trying to find its footing, things aren't as refined - ie backstory, sets, locations, hell even Vader's cadence is jarring compared to every other entry. Like many TV pilots, it's hard to look back and make it fit smoothly with the rest of the series.

I really don't care. It's the best of the lot, followed closely by The Empire Strikes Back.

By "it," I mean any of the versions shown in the theater in 1977, by the way.

 

[fireproof78]

Despite the cool factor, it doesn't materially improve the film (controversial opinion, perhap

No, it doesn't. It feels like it's from a completely different movie.

really don't care. It's the best of the lot, followed closely by The Empire Strikes Back.

By "it," I mean any of the versions shown in the theater in 1977, by the way.

It is the best film, period, of the franchise.

 

[Set Harth]

No, it doesn't. It feels like it's from a completely different movie.

It saved the ending.

Yeah. The Force in ANH is much more within the realm of plausibility. You could see things like a spooky awareness of major events, a con-man convincing a mark, or a spiritual grounding and self-confidence allowing someone to excel all in a story set in the real world (heck, in R1, we saw that was about the extent of the abilities a “normal” person could have with a strong spiritual practice in the case of Chirrut). Even the most extreme “Force power,” Vader choking Motti, fits with an early 20th century pulp understanding of hypnosis and “mesmerism,” which could frequently be depicted as psychic powers, with Vader having used the power of suggestion to make Motti feel like he was choking.

This is like when people claim nothing supernatural happens in The Shining.