The Continuity of Days Gone By

Question- do any of the old DC/Marvel/Malibu comics fit into the pre-1991 Trek Lit Universe?

Does inculding the comics change the Trek reading order or continutiy much?

Well, DC's TOS Volume 1 has three issues written by Diane Duane and referencing characters from her Pocket novels, so that series could be counted as part of the '80s novel continuity, though there may be some inconsistencies here and there. Since DC Vol. 1 is set almost entirely between The Wrath of Khan and The Final Frontier, I don't think it creates any reading-order issues, since the novels are pretty much all pre-TWOK.
 
Question- do any of the old DC/Marvel/Malibu comics fit into the pre-1991 Trek Lit Universe?

Does inculding the comics change the Trek reading order or continutiy much?

Hey, it's really neat to see this threat again!

As Christopher replied, the DC Volume 1 series has a little bit of intersection with books from before 1991. There are the comics written by Diane Duane that bring in and include characters she introduced in her novels. Even better is that I think they hang around beyond the stories she writes. There a sequence of stories between The Search for Spock and The Voyage Home where Diane Duane and her characters are part of the crew. And the three-part story that ends the status quo between the above movies references Romulan culture as developed by Diane Duane in her novels as well.

The previous page of this thread is nicely timed, given that in my own reading list the novelization of The Final Frontier and The Lost Years are the next books to tackle. Additionally, I'm nearing the end of my reading through DC Volume 1, so it seems appropriate that I am wrapping up those comics, before moving on to The Final Frontier for the next stage of Kirk's second Enterprise. A pretty satisfying unplanned bit of synchronicity.
 
If the original Spaceflight Chronology/Novel Verse had continued for TNG, what effect would there be from TNG being set in 2363 and so much further away from the date of the TOS and Movies?

Or is it a case that if the 'original' chronology had continued (say no Roddenberry on TNG) is it possible TNG would be set closer in time to TOS?
 
If the original Spaceflight Chronology/Novel Verse had continued for TNG, what effect would there be from TNG being set in 2363 and so much further away from the date of the TOS and Movies?

Or is it a case that if the 'original' chronology had continued (say no Roddenberry on TNG) is it possible TNG would be set closer in time to TOS?

The latter, certainly; you've got the cause and effect wrong. The explicit intent from the beginning was that TNG took place 78 years after the TOS movie era, or about a century after TOS. (Remember that McCoy was said to be 137 in "Encounter at Farpoint.") The dating was always defined relative to TOS, and TOS's date was never explicitly defined. The exact calendar date for TNG wasn't established until "The Neutral Zone" at the end of season 1 (Data claimed to be "Class of '78" in "Farpoint"), and I've always believed that if the writers' strike hadn't forced them to shoot that episode from a first draft, they would've deleted the 2364 reference, because Roddenberry always preferred to keep the exact date vague.

The SFC chronology was never official; it was just one of a couple of fan interpretations, trying to reconcile the "about 200 years" references in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed" with the "23rd century" references in The Making of Star Trek, TMP, and TWOK. An alternate fan theory featured in Geoffrey Mandel/Doug Drexler books like The Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual and Star Trek Maps was that TOS had taken place in the 2260s, exactly 300 years after TOS aired, and that's the theory that "The Neutral Zone" canonized.
 
The SFC chronology was never official; it was just one of a couple of fan interpretations
It wasn't a fanzine, it was a licensed Star Trek product. It had no "this is not the official Chronology of Star Trek" disclaimer.

Supposedly, the "reboot" of Trek technology (see: Franz Joseph) and chronology was because Gene Roddenberry wasn't getting enough of a cut. That's the only reason.
 
It wasn't a fanzine, it was a licensed Star Trek product. It had no "this is not the official Chronology of Star Trek" disclaimer.

I hesitated over the use of the word, but the point is that the SFC chronology was never established in canon and was not created by the show's or movies' own producers, but was the interpretation of outsiders. Roddenberry specifically avoided pinning down the date, which was why he invented stardates as a placeholder conveying no actual information.

Whether a work is licensed has exactly nothing to do with whether it's canonical or originates with the creators of the show. It just means the publishers have the property owners' permission to sell it in exchange for a cut of the profits. Trek Hallmark ornaments, action figures, and jigsaw puzzles are licensed, but that doesn't give them canon value.

Also, the lack of a disclaimer means nothing, because the disclaimers were an anomaly of the brief time when Richard Arnold was cracking down on the tie-ins. They reflected only his own need to be a control freak and were not a standard practice before or after his tenure. As far as I know, The Worlds of the Federation was the only non-novel to get an Arnold disclaimer, so it's rather bizarre to hold up a unique occurrence as some kind of global standard.


Supposedly, the "reboot" of Trek technology (see: Franz Joseph) and chronology was because Gene Roddenberry wasn't getting enough of a cut. That's the only reason.

I have no idea what this paragraph is talking about. Again, there was no "reboot" of the chronology because the SFC was never the official chronology, just a conjecture from a tie-in. As I said, the Mandel/Drexler tie-ins offered a competing theory which was the one TNG eventually canonized, and fans were divided over which of the two theories they preferred. There was no consensus, because the show itself was very vague about its dating. It wasn't until TWOK in 1982 that the series was even explicitly locked down to the 23rd century in an actual production (as opposed to supplementary materials like The Making of Star Trek or the Orson Welles-narrated trailers for ST:TMP), and TNG: "The Neutral Zone" in 1988 was the first time any Trek production established an exact calendar year for its events. (Which required me to throw out my entire SFC-based pencil-and-paper chronology and rewrite it from scratch.)
 
An alternate fan theory featured in Geoffrey Mandel/Doug Drexler books like The Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual and Star Trek Maps was that TOS had taken place in the 2260s, exactly 300 years after TOS aired, and that's the theory that "The Neutral Zone" canonized.

Interesting that the Medical Reference Manual would take that stance. I checked MA, and it apparently came out in 1977, so only had TOS and TAS to go on. If memory serves, most of the dating references in TOS itself seemed to point more to a timeframe 200 years in the future. I wonder what they based their dating on, then?

Star Trek Maps is a little more understandable: MA says it came out in August 1980, so presumably it would have then reflected the "300 years ago" reference in TMP regarding Voyager 6.
 
Interesting that the Medical Reference Manual would take that stance. I checked MA, and it apparently came out in 1977, so only had TOS and TAS to go on. If memory serves, most of the dating references in TOS itself seemed to point more to a timeframe 200 years in the future. I wonder what they based their dating on, then?

Star Trek Maps is a little more understandable: MA says it came out in August 1980, so presumably it would have then reflected the "300 years ago" reference in TMP regarding Voyager 6.

The first references to the 23rd century as a setting were in James Blish's Star Trek 2 ("Tomorrow is Yesterday," IIRC) and The Making of Star Trek. The simplest way to arrive at a 23rd century dating scheme is just to add 300 to the release dates of the show.

I'd say the main problem with setting TOS only 200 or so years ahead is that "Where No Man..." put the Valiant mission 200 years in the past. By SFC dating, that would put it around 2005 or so -- an interstellar mission less than a decade after the Botany Bay was launched. That just doesn't work. (I can't remember how or if I handwaved that to myself back when I bought into the SFC scheme.)

Also, "Metamorphosis" established that Cochrane was lost 150 years earlier at the age of 87, so if the episode had taken place in 2208 by SFC dating, Cochrane would've had to be born in 1971. Which, okay, is not incompatible with "Space Seed" saying that sleeper ships were supplanted by faster drives in 2018, but it still seems unlikely that Gene Coon in 1967 intended him to be so close in time.
 
My understanding is that the Spaceflight Chronology was explicitly deprecated, and not all that many years after it was published.
 
My understanding is that the Spaceflight Chronology was explicitly deprecated, and not all that many years after it was published.

I don't know what you mean by "deprecated." Again, it was just a tie-in book, as conjectural and speculative as any other tie-in. The contents of Trek tie-ins are not meant to be taken as the "actual" truth of the universe, just something that the book's writers suggested as a possibility. And the SFC chronology, as I've been saying, was never the single universally accepted version, but one of at least two competing unofficial dating schemes that existed back before TNG. (I'm pretty sure I came across one or two others in various books, off by years or more than a decade from one of the two main contenders.)

Yes, the SFC's conjectural scheme was contradicted when "The Neutral Zone" established a specific calendar date, but that's what happens to tie-ins all the time. Calling it "deprecation" is reading more into conjecture than is actually there. It's no different from any case where a speculation in science fiction is disproven by new facts, like whether Jupiter has a surface or whether memory RNA really exists or whether we'll have a city on the Moon by the year 2000.
 
Deprecation, in the sense I'm applying here, comes from the software field: a published Application Program Interface, or a published data format, is formally deprecated when public notice is given that it is no longer supported, has been replaced with something else, cannot be guaranteed to produce predictable results in the latest release, and will be removed entirely in some future release. The term is most commonly used in connection with the Java Programming Language, data encryption, and the World Wide Web.

And I have a distinct recollection that even though at least one novel (JMF's The Final Reflection) made extensive references to the SFC, somebody closely connected with Roddenberry (and I don't think it was Richard Arnold; I'm pretty sure it was before his time) gave explicit orders that it was to be completely and utterly ignored by novelists. The feeling I got is that it went beyond Arnold's orders for novelists to ignore each other's work, and beyond Doohan's extreme personal disdain for Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise (which I personally overheard while standing in an autograph line in Pasadena), and is more like how Lucasfilm (and George Lucas himself) treated The Star Wars Holiday Special.
 
Deprecation, in the sense I'm applying here, comes from the software field: a published Application Program Interface, or a published data format, is formally deprecated when public notice is given that it is no longer supported, has been replaced with something else...

Yes, but that's why it's completely the wrong word to use here -- the SFC scheme was never "supported" or "replaced," because it was never the official, accepted Trek chronology to begin with. It was just one of multiple coexisting conjectural timelines in tie-ins and fan works. For instance, 1980's Star Trek Maps, published by Bantam less than a year after the SFC came out, puts the events of TOS in 2261-3. A couple of mid-1980s* fan blueprint publications I have, David John Nielsen's U.S.S. Enterprise Heavy Cruiser Evolution Blueprints and Todd Guenther & aridas sofia's Ships of the Star Fleet Volume One, put ST:TMP in 2267 and TSFS in 2287, as strange as that is. (How can they be 20 years apart when TWOK was only 15 years after "Space Seed?")

*[Memory Alpha says the first Ships of the Star Fleet was released in 1988, but my copy has a 1987 copyright date, and I remember there was a delay of a year or two between when I ordered it and when it was finally released.]

So there was no single accepted Trek timeline before "The Neutral Zone" locked down TNG's date as 2364. Before that, the only unambiguous fact was that TOS was sometime in the 23rd century. Some fans and writers preferred to put TOS at the start of the century to try to reconcile with "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed," while various others favored putting TOS sometime in the 2260s, give or take a few years. The writers of "The Neutral Zone" evidently favored the latter fan theory, and so that's the version that won out in the end. (And as I said, I doubt the impetus for that came from Roddenberry, since the 1988 writers' strike required that script to be filmed from the first draft with no rewriting by the producers. If Roddenberry had rewritten it, he probably would've excised the date reference altogether, because he never wanted to pin the date down that precisely.)


And I have a distinct recollection that even though at least one novel (JMF's The Final Reflection) made extensive references to the SFC

Yes, and it was the individual choice of Ford and other authors to use the SFC as material for their books, not some kind of official doctrine. They used it because it was there, because it was a source of ideas and worldbuilding.


somebody closely connected with Roddenberry (and I don't think it was Richard Arnold; I'm pretty sure it was before his time) gave explicit orders that it was to be completely and utterly ignored by novelists.

Unlikely, given that Diane Carey's Final Frontier from 1988 used the SFC dating scheme.


The feeling I got is that it went beyond Arnold's orders for novelists to ignore each other's work, and beyond Doohan's extreme personal disdain for Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise (which I personally overheard while standing in an autograph line in Pasadena), and is more like how Lucasfilm (and George Lucas himself) treated The Star Wars Holiday Special.

I've never heard anything like that, but even if it's true, so what? The fact that Roddenberry disliked a speculation in a novel doesn't mean that it was ever anything more than a speculation. Roddenberry disliked Diane Duane's Rihannsu, but not because they were ever an "official" interpretation, just because he was envious of other people's conjectures getting more attention than his own creations.
 
I've never heard anything like that, but even if it's true, so what? The fact that Roddenberry disliked a speculation in a novel doesn't mean that it was ever anything more than a speculation. Roddenberry disliked Diane Duane's Rihannsu, but not because they were ever an "official" interpretation, just because he was envious of other people's conjectures getting more attention than his own creations.
I've heard that's also the reason why he decided to create the starship design rules and to contradict the FJ TOS Tech Manual.
 
Hadn't heard that before. What was the story there?
My best guess is that Doohan (being the only one to have ever played Mr. Scott outside of the occasional parody, and who ended up more than a little bit typecast as a Scottish engineer, despite his flair for accents) felt that he should have been involved in anything bearing his character's name. And I don't exactly blame him, especially given that being asked to autograph something he'd had nothing to do with had to hurt.
 
I have no idea what this paragraph is talking about. Again, there was no "reboot" of the chronology because the SFC was never the official chronology, just a conjecture from a tie-in. As I said, the Mandel/Drexler tie-ins offered a competing theory which was the one TNG eventually canonized, and fans were divided over which of the two theories they preferred. There was no consensus, because the show itself was very vague about its dating. It wasn't until TWOK in 1982 that the series was even explicitly locked down to the 23rd century in an actual production (as opposed to supplementary materials like The Making of Star Trek or the Orson Welles-narrated trailers for ST:TMP), and TNG: "The Neutral Zone" in 1988 was the first time any Trek production established an exact calendar year for its events. (Which required me to throw out my entire SFC-based pencil-and-paper chronology and rewrite it from scratch.)
I was under the impression that the Spaceflight Chronology (and FASA) being ignored was a deliberate act, somewhat akin to the deliberate contradictions of Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's works.
 
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