The Cloud Minders & The Federation

[Greg Cox]

In both cases, the planets in question (Vulcan and Ardana) hardly advertised the more unsavory aspects of their culture when they joined the Federation. Note that Kirk seems genuinely surprised by both the Vulcan marriage rituals and the oppression of the Troglytes, so it's not as though the Federation knew all about such things and accepted the planets into the Federation anyway.

It might help to think of the TOS version of the Federation as something more like NATO. It's an alliance, not an organization that you have with application requirements.

 

[Christopher]

While I disapprove of practices that kill people, I don't agree that they fall into the same category as systemic race or class inequality. A free and equal society can include the free and equal right to engage in potentially lethal activities. Boxing is occasionally lethal and frequently crippling; personally I wish it weren't legal (or at least that boxers wore equipment to protect the head like in other sports, and that blows to the head were forbidden), but it is, and its legality and lethality are not considered a civil rights issue. The Federation's stance might be that if the citizens of a planet are all free to choose, then that includes the choice to participate in consensual lethal combat if that's part of their culture.

 

[Tenacity]

so it's not as though the Federation knew all about such things and accepted the planets into the Federation anyway

How much time passed between Trill joining the federation and the implantation of the slugs becoming generally known?

 

[Greg Cox]

The Vulcans let Earth join the Federation even though humans still eat meat.

 

[Tenacity]

The point is, Stratos is said to be a Federation member. The question isn't about Kirk's interference, it's about why the Federation would've allowed a culture with such blatant inequality to join in the first place.

If a stratified social system if common among federation member worlds, then Ardana's system wouldn't be a problem when the decision was made to allow them to join.

Ardana was just more of the same.

 

[UssGlenn]

Kirk even says that the PD only applies to growing cultures

While that initially seemed like a cop-out to me, upon further reflection it could be a legalistic interpretation of the exact wording of the prime directive. Something about not interfering with the evolution or progress or development. All words which imply a changing state, thus exempting static cultures.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

What also appears significant is the lack of Federal powers of intervention. Plasus does not merely provide idle philosophical justification for the ways of his world. He outright tells Kirk that Starfleet isn't entitled to interfere in any fashion, and that he's going to tell Kirk's superiors and then there will be consequences - to Kirk.

How the Federation--ir its Starfleet representatives respond depend on the planet, and how far the Federation is willing to go with certain worlds. For example, Ardana's "violations" were likely known to those who visited the planet (to learn about their mining operations) long before the 1701's mission, but Federation representatives said nothing / took no action, as 1) its not in their interests to do so and 2) as "violations" go, Ardana's were not "enough" to justify any official punitive measure against them. That parallels situations in the real world of the 1960s and obviously continuing today, as this is a source of global controversy with countries (with relationships with the United States) long accused of human rights violations (some will point to Saudi Arabia and Israel, for a couple of examples); if the relationship serves some purpose to America, they would never actively seek or even recognize human rights violations that are clear and often proven to the rest of the world. So, as long as Ardana provides the valuable Zenite, the Federation was not going to penalize that government in any serious manner.

I just don’t care about Discovery’s rewriting of TOS history.

Agreed.

I prefer the interpretation that the Federation was a loose alliance, which is supported by TOS.

Loose in some cases--as in the Ardana case, only because they provide something of great value.

 

[Christopher]

If a stratified social system if common among federation member worlds, then Ardana's system wouldn't be a problem when the decision was made to allow them to join.

There's no basis for that "if" premise whatsoever; it's purely ad hoc and conflicts with everything we know about the Federation. It makes no sense to throw out the rest of canon to justify a problem in a single episode.

"The Cloud Minders" itself shows that the truth of the situation on Ardana isn't well-understood by the Enterprise crew, and thus presumably by the Federation. It didn't take McCoy long to figure out that the zienite gas was the reason for the Troglytes' apparent mental deficiencies, so the fact that nobody figured it out before would seem to prove that nobody really asked the question before. It looks like what happened is that the Stratosians controlled what the Federation learned about their world and hid the truth about the Troglytes' situation, which is why Kirk & crew didn't find out until the Disruptors revolted.

While that initially seemed like a cop-out to me, upon further reflection it could be a legalistic interpretation of the exact wording of the prime directive. Something about not interfering with the evolution or progress or development. All words which imply a changing state, thus exempting static cultures.

There's no such thing as a truly static culture; even ones that seem to change slowly or not at all by our standards do still have some degree of innovation and variation from one generation to another, at least culturally if not technologically. Any true stasis would have to be artificially imposed through rigid control and suppression of individuality.

 

[johnnybear]

Maybe the Federation and Starfleet admit planets to their union on the understanding that they provide something or other into the pot and allow their Starships a place in which to dock? Anything else they tend to ignore!
JB

 

[Timo]

How much time passed between Trill joining the federation and the implantation of the slugs becoming generally known?

Are the Trills members? Canon is mum on that. Starfleet has its fair share of Bajorans despite that place certainly not being a member. And the Federation loves to hire neutral diplomats it knows basically squat about (or at least refuses to tell its own employees anything about).

Is the slug thing generally known as of, say, "What You Leave" or "Endgame" or ST:NEM? We don't hear of outsiders commenting on it, or of the Trills themselves advertising it.

What to make of these two things? Are the Trills banned from being members because those in the know abhor them conceptually? Is the concept still secret because it's so disgusting that violence towards the Trill would erupt at disclosure? Or are we just facing an absence-of-evidence bias here?

How the Federation--ir its Starfleet representatives respond depend on the planet, and how far the Federation is willing to go with certain worlds. For example, Ardana's "violations" were likely known to those who visited the planet (to learn about their mining operations)

Why would anybody go learn about those operations, or be allowed to? The place exports the stuff; perhaps they falsely sign certificates on the ethical practices involved in the production, perhaps they don't. We know of no mechanism that would obligate them to do that.

We are also left wondering about the zenite. Arguably, horrid plagues might be common in an interstellar community where introduced species descend upon native ones. But if they really are common, how come there's no zenite available anywhere but at the source? Is the stuff perishable? If not, the common way to get some might be to go to a vendor, far away from Ardana - and only phenomenally bad luck had Plasus face simultaneously a disaster right next to his planet, and a worker uprising, even if the latter were not particularly rare.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Why would anybody go learn about those operations, or be allowed to?

Companies--and countries commonly inspect everything from the processing/management/materials used in the development and/or manufacturing of materials they intend to use. And just as common is the practice of turning a blind eye to any ethics/human rights violations if opposing it gets in the way of something deemed too valuable, as seen in the gold and diamond mining in Africa, oil and rubber in South America. etc. In both cases, America obtained/profited from those materials/energy resources/precious metals, etc., while knowing about gross human rights violations "baked" in the governments/companies providing it, but did next to nothing about it. In the case of the Star Trek episode, the Federation (being a far future stand in for America in many ways) would not just enter into an any agreement not knowing who and what they're dealing with, but as mentioned earlier, if they considered Zenite incredibly valuable, they (likely) decided to ignore the mining/Troglytes' situation. Federation interests come first.

 

[Tenacity]

There's no basis for that "if" premise whatsoever; it's purely ad hoc and conflicts with everything we know about the Federation.

The same Federation that sent a heavily armed starship to a (apparently) pre-warp planet to establish a "treaty port?"

The same Federation that inspite of the prime directive mines pre-warp inhabited worlds?

Chirstopher we know very little about the TOS Federation organization. The existence of Ardana as a Federation member does say that planets like Ardana are admitted into the Federation. If there's one, is it far fetched to think there are others?

Or even a majority.

 

[Christopher]

Chirstopher we know very little about the TOS Federation organization.

Which is not a license to make up any random nonsense you want.

As I already said, the episode itself makes it quite clear that Starfleet was not aware of the full extent of the Troglytes' oppression. It is therefore pointless to waste time trying to justify the already disproven hypothesis that they knew all about it and were okay with it.

 

[johnnybear]

Kirk had been to the place before and was unaware of any troubles on the planet!
JB

 

[Timo]

Indeed, here we have a solid fact about how easily the troglyte affairs can be kept out of sight.

However, Kirk indicates unfamiliarity with the city of Stratos! Yes, he fully expects to be beaming down to the mines, but even beyond that, he goes all "Stratos? That's their cloud city, isn't it, Mr Spock?".

So Kirk has been to the planet on brief/urgent business, but apparently not to Stratos. What else is there on that planet to see? If Kirk originally visited the mines, too, then this tells us even more about how the truth can remain hidden.

Naturally, the planet might have more cities (groundbound ones all, considering Kirk's specific wording regarding Stratos). Or other locations worth a starship visit. It certainly doesn't look like that at all, though. Any non-Stratos location on the planet would be troglyte territory almost by definition, and troglyte grievances would be at the blatant forefront. All the more praise to the Stratosians for their ability to keep things under the lid, then!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Kirk had been to the place before and was unaware of any troubles on the planet!
JB

Kirk was not aware of it--that's the key that's unavoidable. He is in the service of Starfleet, not the inner workings of the Federation until he--and his staff--reach that "need to know" level. That is how the real world military works in relation to administrations/state departments, etc. There is no shared knowledge about situations that do no involve the military until they need to know, if at all, hence the reason he had to learn about the Troglyte situation--by simply falling into the middle of a conflict. That said, it would be astoundingly naïve for anyone to believe a galaxy-spanning organization enters into relationships with planets for resources, etc., and never learns a single thing about its business, production, beliefs, cultural practices. Its patently unrealistic, as it does not happen in reality, either (and for Western countries, flies in the face of basic national security protocols). Governments pick and choose their opposition/outrage to partner countries' practices (which is why the selective protestations of United Nations members is considered a joke by many nations), and are quite comfortable not revealing the abuses of said partner countries until it becomes a problem for their interests.

Also of note, Plasus was full of confidence when he threatened to report Kirk for his interference--it its obvious he had a relationship with the Federation the 1701 crew was unaware of, and in making his threat, was sure they would side with him. The reason he would believe that is the Federation knew how Ardana was managed, and were content to let things stand. The only players out of the loop were the 1701 crew.

In the Ardana situation, Troglyte grievances were not a problem for the Federation, since the ruling government--despite Troglyte attempts at terrorism--were largely controlled.

 

[Timo]

Considering Kirk was also confident that his reports would make no difference, and thus instead opted for direct action, we have to deduce either

a) that the UFP government cannot be ashamed into disapproving of the Ardanan practice, it thus being likely that slavery of this sort is in fact generally and openly approved of in the (for both practical and ideological reasons) pro-diversity Federation, or

b) that trying to ashame the UFP government through exposure of the Ardanan practice would have worse consequences on Kirk's career than trying to bludgeon the local government to death with a pickaxe.

Either way, the UFP is monstrous by our standards. But not by theirs. Except, apparently, it is monstrous by Kirk's, who takes said direct action even when there in official terms is nothing to act on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Kirk had been to the place before and was unaware of any troubles on the planet

But by his own statement he didn't have time to look around during his first visit.

 

[Christopher]

But by his own statement he didn't have time to look around during his first visit.

Kirk isn't the only guy in the Federation. The point, as I already said, is that McCoy's discovery of the effect of zienite on the Troglytes was presented as new information, but was easy for him to figure out. Therefore, it stands to reason that previous Starfleet/Federation visitors to Ardana had not explored the planet thoroughly enough to be aware of the full situation. The episode makes it quite clear that the truth of the Troglytes' oppression has been hidden from the Federation.

 

[Timo]

Or, to take the obvious opposite tack, McCoy was among the people not in the need to know.

We know he is that sort of a guy: nobody bothered to tell him about pon farr, either. It does not follow that his superiors, colleagues, indeed even underlings would not know more. And just like letting McCoy know about pon farr might have massively helped Spock but also massively damaged Earth-Vulcan relations, letting him know about zenite gas and the trivial cure to that might have massively helped the troglytes but also massively damaged Earth-Ardanan relations.

The thing here is, Starfleet really should brief its employees on the need to not know, before sending them to Ardana or Vulcan or Trill etc. McCoy could be professionally obligated to stay mum about a cure even if also professionally obligated to do no harm; Kirk could certainly be told in no unclear words to mind his own business rather than the troglytes'.

Timo Saloniemi