The Case Against Scotty
- Thread starter YARN
- Start date
Curious, those defending Scotty's padding are basically arguing from self-interest (what makes you look good and keeps the boss off your back), rather than in terms of the good of all - what a good officer should do.
Scotty - egoist, misogynist, alcoholic.
I think it depends on the profession. A lot of people are talking about meeting some menial deadlines with the only consequence being their boss breathing down their neck.
I think the military consequences or those in Star Trek warrant a more accurate estimate. A commander is essentially a manager of information from all departments and critical decisions are made with that information.
Call it job security. If you look like a miracle worker, you get a stable job...promotions. If you perform your job like The Corbomite Manuver's Lt. Bailey, you get shipped off to some alien's ship.
Well, somebody had to hit on the hot chick of the week, and could not be Kirk all the time...
Wellll...at the conclusion of Mirror, Mirror, Kirk seems like he's about to pick up where he left off with normal universe Marlena, position of power be damned!
Pass!
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This was retconned in the Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations." Or am I the only one who noticed that the scene where Sisko decided he just had to meet Kirk in person and Kirk nodded at him was really the Marlena scene from the end of "Mirror, Mirror" with Sisko instead of Marlena?
YARN
Fleet Captain
He's thinking about it, but that's it (and who wouldn't?).
I still feel like Scotty was just being sarcastic, half-joking with Geordi. Of course they're "not like children", but they can throw serious tantrums from time to time and also be fixated on what they want instead of what they need. But in most TOS episodes, I see Scotty defer to Kirk with admiration, not condescending at all.SCOTT: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way, but the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.
This sounds more like keeping the grumpy man-child off your back than carefully managing information in a crisis. Also note, that for Scott to only give the Captain what he "needs" means he must have the most superior vantage point of all (even though he is, as you note, stuck down in engineering he must know best what he needs). He is, in effect, deciding that he is over and above the Captain and only gives him the information he really thinks he needs.
NOTE: So we're all agree that he is a misogynist and an alcoholic?
Or, alternately, the seriousness of the business calls for proper safety margins. If Scotty says "I'll have it done in an hour" and it takes 72 minutes, that may cost lives. Him saying "I'll have it done in two hours" is not likely to.
However, Scotty isn't actually involved in any business relating to lives lost or won in either of the two cases given. In ST3, Kirk gives Scotty a deadline when the ship is actually unlikely to see any action ever again. In "Relics", Scotty isn't doing any engineering, he's socializing. The only way he could be considered unprofessional in either of the cases would be if he somehow indicated he was taking things seriously. And he is indicating the exact opposite.
As for his drinking problem, clearly he had none. What reason do we have that Starfleet would frown on alcohol consumption? Whenever our heroes engaged in that, on or off duty (are there any examples of on-duty consumption besides "Enemy Within"?), it was seen in a positive light. Apparently, if Scotty performed better after two shots of his poison of choice, Starfleet encouraged him to do that. They seemed to like Kirk taking drugs, too.
The example from "Lights of Zetar" is pretty ridiculous, though, and warrants no further comment. So Scotty wasn't in Engineering when Kirk called? News flash: he almost never was! And wasn't supposed to be. He'd go down there if needed, just like McCoy would sometimes wander to Sickbay under proper duress. If Kirk expected something different, he should have formulated the "stay at your post" order with a time limit explicit. Or, say, declared an alert status.
Timo Saloniemi
Those instances may not have been that big a deal but they are setting a precedent that is not lost on Kirk as we see him call him on it.
Curious, those defending Scotty's padding are basically arguing from self-interest (what makes you look good and keeps the boss off your back), rather than in terms of the good of all - what a good officer should do.
Scotty - egoist, misogynist, alcoholic.
Maybe some, others are saying in any estimate you allow room for unforseen problems.
Scenario 1
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 1 hour.
1 hour later
Captain: Where's my warp drive?
Engineer: Sorry sir it'll be another 30 minutes there was a problem aligning the crystals.
Scenario 2:
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 2 hours
1.5 hours later
Engineer: Captain, warp drive back online.
Captain: Well done Engineer.
In scenario 1 as a CO, I might be thinking that my engineer is incompetnant because he couldn't reapir a system in the time they said it would.
Both scenarios had the same issue.
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Curious, those defending Scotty's padding are basically arguing from self-interest (what makes you look good and keeps the boss off your back), rather than in terms of the good of all - what a good officer should do.
Scotty - egoist, misogynist, alcoholic.
Maybe some, others are saying in any estimate you allow room for unforseen problems.
Scenario 1
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 1 hour.
1 hour later
Captain: Where's my warp drive?
Engineer: Sorrry sir it'll be another 30 minutes there was a problem aligning the crystals.
Scenario 2:
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 2 hours
1.5 hours later
Engineer: Captain, warp drive back online.
Captain: Well done Engineer.
In scenario 1 as a CO, I might be thinking that my engineer is incompetnant because he could reapir a system in the time they said it would.
Both scenarios had the same issue.
This was essentially the point I was trying to make. Its always good practice to pad out your time estimates for exactly the reason you give here. If, as a side effect, it makes you look good, that's a bonus.
Curious, those defending Scotty's padding are basically arguing from self-interest (what makes you look good and keeps the boss off your back), rather than in terms of the good of all - what a good officer should do.
Scotty - egoist, misogynist, alcoholic.
Maybe some, others are saying in any estimate you allow room for unforseen problems.
Scenario 1
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 1 hour.
1 hour later
Captain: Where's my warp drive?
Engineer: Sorry sir it'll be another 30 minutes there was a problem aligning the crystals.
Scenario 2:
Engineer: Captain Warp Drive will be back on line in 2 hours
1.5 hours later
Engineer: Captain, warp drive back online.
Captain: Well done Engineer.
In scenario 1 as a CO, I might be thinking that my engineer is incompetnant because he couldn't reapir a system in the time they said it would.
Both scenarios had the same issue.
How about in scenario 1 if the engineer calls you himself at .5 hours and says CAPT there has been an issue with the dilithium crystals it's going to be 30 more minutes.
It would both reflect better on the engineer and be more practical in general if the Captain could trust his or her Engineer to foresee such troubles. Not specifically, but statistically. Unexpected developments are unexpected, but with a certain probability, and it's a sign of professional competence to have an idea of that probability. That 50% error should have been built in, unless the delay indeed was truly exceptional - in which case the very existence of the delay might lead to conclusions, such as there being a saboteur aboard.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Geez man just tell him how long it will take to fix the damn thing and advise accordingly if a variable will change the estimate. No commander wants to do a damn math problem to account for inflation rates. They simply want the most accurate information to date. Don't worry so much about the CO's perception of you. If you know what you are doing you probably know how long it will take. If a problem comes up then all most commanders ask is that you not wait too long to let him know there is a problem.
So when you take your car down to the garage to say have the exhast reapired, and the mechanic say's it'll be ready at the end of day and it's not. You would no doubt complain.
If however he says it'll be tomorrow and he calls you later that day and says it's ready, you would be pleased.
When doing a repair even if it's one you've done hundreds of times. Someday's you'll do it quicker than your usual other days longer. Aftr all you're average repair time might be 30 mins but somedays it'll take you 25mins others 35mins. So you might say 40 mins slighlty above the upper maximum time it has taken you to do that repair.
If however he says it'll be tomorrow and he calls you later that day and says it's ready, you would be pleased.
When doing a repair even if it's one you've done hundreds of times. Someday's you'll do it quicker than your usual other days longer. Aftr all you're average repair time might be 30 mins but somedays it'll take you 25mins others 35mins. So you might say 40 mins slighlty above the upper maximum time it has taken you to do that repair.
I feel like I'm doing mental gymnastics here. On your first sentence haven't I made it clear that I would prefer a phone call explaining the reason. I would be fine if towards the end of the day I got a call saying that they encountered problems that would delay until tomorrow. Bad news doesn't get better with time.
I don't know what else to say other than give it your best guess. That is the best you can do. As someone that has served under several commanders and as someone that has been one at one time I can consistently say that if I was asked how long it would take to do something I gave it my best guess and then reported issues as they occurred. I can assure you that I was never crucified for failing to meet a deadline as long as I had a legitimate reason and made that reason known as soon as I found out about it. As a commander I expected the truth whenever I asked for something. I found that as I worked my up and eventually became a commander I was sometimes able to call "bullshit" on people that were giving me lip service. Now what do you think I thought of that person.
Yes you would keep your CO upto date with any developments that isn't in question.
But as for a guess when you are giving someone a guess to you
a.>say "It'll be an hour"
or
b.> say "It'll be around an hour"
The former tends to indicate a definite the later an estimation.
But as for a guess when you are giving someone a guess to you
a.>say "It'll be an hour"
or
b.> say "It'll be around an hour"
The former tends to indicate a definite the later an estimation.
YARN
Fleet Captain
1. No one dies if my car is not ready by the end of the day.
2. This reasoning is not virtuous but egoistic (making yourself look good).
His job as an officer is not to overestimate or to underestimate, but to tell the Captain, with as much accuracy as possible, what the situation is. If there is uncertainty, his job is to report the uncertainty. If something goes wrong, his job is to notify the Captain that the situation has changed.
Use of Time said:
This.
How about giving that guy the formula for transparent aluminum? They didn't have much to say about the Temporal Prime Directive back then, although McCoy did ask the question. Scotty replied: "How do we know he didn't invent the thing?"
Of course, if he didn't do it, the Earth would have been destroyed, so there wouldn't be much to argue about at that point....
Of course, if he didn't do it, the Earth would have been destroyed, so there wouldn't be much to argue about at that point....
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