Wait when did we start debating this? I thought that the term "estimate" from the get go was a given. This was never in dispute.
The Case Against Scotty
- Thread starter YARN
- Start date
Wait when did we start debating this? I thought that the term "estimate" from the get go was a given. This was never in dispute.
While "a factor of four" seems a bit much, I don't think Scotty could be faulted for padding his estimates, as others said, to take into account unforeseen circumstances.
As for giving the Captain a call, two things: (1) Maybe he's done that off-screen. Seeing as how we only see what they wrote/filmed, they might not have thought conversations between Scotty and Kirk to keep him up-to-date on things that might have slowed repairs, but were not essential to the plot did not warrant being shown and (2) I've known some people who want results, not excuses. While a, "Sir, the warp crystals need more time to re-align" might be warranted, the Captain could also say, "I've got a lot on my plate, just let me know when it's done."
While I'm far from an expert on these matters, couldn't it be possible that it's not Scotty's job to be the one to inform the Captain. There are others in engineering. I'd rather have the guy in charge focused on the problem and delegate a junior officer to keep the bridge apprised of all the issues. Again, not something they'd film or even write into a script.
Going back as far as "The Cage," Dr. Boyce used a martini to pry Pike to open up about Rigel VII. It's been a while since I've seen the bulk of TOS, but if memory serves, McCoy also used alcohol medicinally (or his definition of "medicinally"). In an unofficial capacity, he did the same thing Boyce did to Kirk in TWOK.
If we buy into Rodenberry's "perfect human" idea, then it's possible humanity outgrew over-indulging to the point where those like Scotty and McCoy who liked to imbibe did so without letting it affect their work.
Of course, by TNG synthehol would replace the need for moderation.
As for giving the Captain a call, two things: (1) Maybe he's done that off-screen. Seeing as how we only see what they wrote/filmed, they might not have thought conversations between Scotty and Kirk to keep him up-to-date on things that might have slowed repairs, but were not essential to the plot did not warrant being shown and (2) I've known some people who want results, not excuses. While a, "Sir, the warp crystals need more time to re-align" might be warranted, the Captain could also say, "I've got a lot on my plate, just let me know when it's done."
While I'm far from an expert on these matters, couldn't it be possible that it's not Scotty's job to be the one to inform the Captain. There are others in engineering. I'd rather have the guy in charge focused on the problem and delegate a junior officer to keep the bridge apprised of all the issues. Again, not something they'd film or even write into a script.
Going back as far as "The Cage," Dr. Boyce used a martini to pry Pike to open up about Rigel VII. It's been a while since I've seen the bulk of TOS, but if memory serves, McCoy also used alcohol medicinally (or his definition of "medicinally"). In an unofficial capacity, he did the same thing Boyce did to Kirk in TWOK.
If we buy into Rodenberry's "perfect human" idea, then it's possible humanity outgrew over-indulging to the point where those like Scotty and McCoy who liked to imbibe did so without letting it affect their work.
Of course, by TNG synthehol would replace the need for moderation.
YARN
Fleet Captain
There are two solid facts about alcohol and the TOS crew. Kirk always winces at the strength of any drink that is handed to him. Scotty empties any bottle that he opens. When Scotty drinks, he gets drunk. He's a binge drinker.
Take a look at the first line in the thread starter's opening post.
Ian Keldon
Fleet Captain
I think that says more about B'Elanna than it does Scotty. He was absolutely right when he told Geordi "A good engineer is always a wee bit conservative." In the case of time estimates, that means giving yourself some "wiggle room" in case something goes wrong, or the system is more damaged than originally thought, etc.
B'Elanna, by giving a precise estimate is backing herself into a corner, and could negatively affect ship's operations if she can't meet her deadline, which the Captain would use for planning purposes.
An estimate is just that...an estimate. How is B'Elanna going to back herself into a corner by giving an honest assessment and advising the CAPT as variables arise? By doing that she is ensuring that the CAPT has the most accurate information to date which is all you can ask of someone.
Wouldn't Scotty's "miracle worker" approach affect the CAPT's planning purposes in more of a negative way?
The CAPT's job is to make the most informed decision possible with the most up to date and relevant information. As a subordinate it would be my job to provide her with the most up to date and accurate information possible. My only responsibility outside of that would be to maintain the flow of information as variables arise that affect the estimate.
Concerning Scotty's alleged estimate padding:
In TOS, I don't believe there was ever any indication of such. In fact, there was never any indication at all that Scotty and Kirk were not always communicating with great efficiency and clarity and were always on the same page.
In TSFS, the jocular exchange between Scotty and Kirk that some see as Scotty confessing to long-term lying about his estimates is really nothing more than some good-natured joking between two friends based on their shared opinion that repairs that should take eight weeks by the book, Scotty can do in two.
It is not until Scotty's guest appearance on TNG that he becomes someone who thinks of starship captains as children who need to be lied to and "handled" (assuming one doesn't interpret that whole scene as him simply pulling Geordi's leg). Personally, though, I think it's wise to take the TNG-and-later writers' interpretations of any of the TOS characters with a grain of salt.
In TOS, I don't believe there was ever any indication of such. In fact, there was never any indication at all that Scotty and Kirk were not always communicating with great efficiency and clarity and were always on the same page.
In TSFS, the jocular exchange between Scotty and Kirk that some see as Scotty confessing to long-term lying about his estimates is really nothing more than some good-natured joking between two friends based on their shared opinion that repairs that should take eight weeks by the book, Scotty can do in two.
It is not until Scotty's guest appearance on TNG that he becomes someone who thinks of starship captains as children who need to be lied to and "handled" (assuming one doesn't interpret that whole scene as him simply pulling Geordi's leg). Personally, though, I think it's wise to take the TNG-and-later writers' interpretations of any of the TOS characters with a grain of salt.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Concerning Scotty's alleged estimate padding:
In TOS, I don't believe there was ever any indication of such. In fact, there was never any indication at all that Scotty and Kirk were not always communicating with great efficiency and clarity and were always on the same page.
In TSFS, the jocular exchange between Scotty and Kirk that some see as Scotty confessing to long-term lying about his estimates is really nothing more than some good-natured joking between two friends based on their shared opinion that repairs that should take eight weeks by the book, Scotty can do in two.
It is not until Scotty's guest appearance on TNG that he becomes someone who thinks of starship captains as children who need to be lied to and "handled" (assuming one doesn't interpret that whole scene as him simply pulling Geordi's leg). Personally, though, I think it's wise to take the TNG-and-later writers' interpretations of any of the TOS characters with a grain of salt.
This is, I think, the correct answer. The joke in Star Trek III becomes a beat they try to repeat for TNG, but it retroactively turns Scotty into a shovel-leaner. Yet another instance of TOS getting retroactively punk'd by later productions.
There are times when you sense embarrassment, apprehension, and even mild distaste for TOS in the writers of the later shows. They have, for example, their characters prattle on about how they're more morally evolved now and wouldn't do things the way that they did in old Starfleet, etc.
Hey, alcoholism can be a plus sometimes! Remember the episode (I'm too lazy to look it up) where Scotty distracts an alien by drinking with him?
An episode by any other name...
For myself, I think the experiences and lessons that both Gene Roddenberry and Gene Coon learned in World War II had an influence on the first show. Both men had served in the military, with Coon having the most experience of the two men. Coon served in two wars - WWII and the Korean War.
For the Star Trek shows that came after, none of the producers had any experience in the military. Ronald D. Moore came the closest, with a stint at an officer training program at Cornell University. And I think it shows.
For me, the character that had the greatest injustice done to him didn't belong to the main cast. It was Zefram Cochrane. From my perspective, I believed that they took the name of the character and ignored everything else that was established about this character and his times in "Metamorphosis" when writing the script for First Contact.
Though it wasn't conclusively nailed down in the first series when it occurred, there were far more references to this series being set in the late 22nd century. Zefram Cochrane lived through the Eugenics War, and, did his pioneering work on warp field during this war. (The SS Valiant was lost two hundred years prior to Star Trek, and the Eugenics War ended two hundred years prior to Star Trek, and Cochrane disappeared 150 years prior to Star Trek when he was 87 years old. He would have been in his thirties when the Eugenics War occurred.) Cochrane knew how to plant crops, and how to take care of himself, and how to be self-reliant, and he was curious about what lay beyond Earth. One of his first questions to Kirk is, what is it like out there? I never expected him to be treated as bad as he was in First Contact where he is depicted as a drunk who is in the invention business because he wants to get famous, get money, and get laid on a tropical island. Ugh.
I have heard that both Braga and Berman both hated the first show, and I think it shows in how they treated the characters. The people who did DS9 loved the characters, and their tribute episode was the better received of the two.
I never did like how Geordi LaForge treated Scotty. It seemed out of character for LaForge to treat Scotty as badly as he did. LaForge loved engineering, and to be standing next to the guy who pioneered many of the practices employed by LaForge, and having that opportunity to share stories and to learn from him is one I never expected LaForge to pass up. Though they attempted to repair that flaw in the episode by showing the two engineers working as a team when faced with saving the Enterprise and the imminent destruction of the Jenolan, I felt that the writers should have showed them working as a team long before that. Instead, the writers showed Scotty as a man caught in the past. I never envisioned Scotty as a man caught in the past; he was always attempting to stay ahead, and, in his off hours, he studied technical journals. He lived for the moment, and had a friendly camaraderie with his staff who respected him and followed his lead.
For the Star Trek shows that came after, none of the producers had any experience in the military. Ronald D. Moore came the closest, with a stint at an officer training program at Cornell University. And I think it shows.
For me, the character that had the greatest injustice done to him didn't belong to the main cast. It was Zefram Cochrane. From my perspective, I believed that they took the name of the character and ignored everything else that was established about this character and his times in "Metamorphosis" when writing the script for First Contact.
Though it wasn't conclusively nailed down in the first series when it occurred, there were far more references to this series being set in the late 22nd century. Zefram Cochrane lived through the Eugenics War, and, did his pioneering work on warp field during this war. (The SS Valiant was lost two hundred years prior to Star Trek, and the Eugenics War ended two hundred years prior to Star Trek, and Cochrane disappeared 150 years prior to Star Trek when he was 87 years old. He would have been in his thirties when the Eugenics War occurred.) Cochrane knew how to plant crops, and how to take care of himself, and how to be self-reliant, and he was curious about what lay beyond Earth. One of his first questions to Kirk is, what is it like out there? I never expected him to be treated as bad as he was in First Contact where he is depicted as a drunk who is in the invention business because he wants to get famous, get money, and get laid on a tropical island. Ugh.
I have heard that both Braga and Berman both hated the first show, and I think it shows in how they treated the characters. The people who did DS9 loved the characters, and their tribute episode was the better received of the two.
I never did like how Geordi LaForge treated Scotty. It seemed out of character for LaForge to treat Scotty as badly as he did. LaForge loved engineering, and to be standing next to the guy who pioneered many of the practices employed by LaForge, and having that opportunity to share stories and to learn from him is one I never expected LaForge to pass up. Though they attempted to repair that flaw in the episode by showing the two engineers working as a team when faced with saving the Enterprise and the imminent destruction of the Jenolan, I felt that the writers should have showed them working as a team long before that. Instead, the writers showed Scotty as a man caught in the past. I never envisioned Scotty as a man caught in the past; he was always attempting to stay ahead, and, in his off hours, he studied technical journals. He lived for the moment, and had a friendly camaraderie with his staff who respected him and followed his lead.
YARN
Fleet Captain
5. The Charge: Substandard as an Engineer
The Evidence: TOS, TMP, TWoK, STIII.
Ever notice how when something was really broken on the Enterprise Mr. Spock would eventually have to go fix it?
This happened more than once in the series, but reconsider the movies. In TMP, Scotty has been with the whole refit of the Enterprise, but can't figure out the fuel equations to get to warp. When Kirk insists that they go to warp to intercept the BDO threatening Earth (Kirk was pushing here, but going to warp is like taking an elevator in Trek) they wind up in a worm hole. Heck, it wasn't even Scott who entered the solution - he stood back and had and underling take stab at it:
ASSISTANT ENGINEER: That's it, sir. I can't do any better.
SCOTT: Aye, lad. It's borderline on the simulator. Captain, I canna guarantee that she'll hold up.
So here is Scotty, on his ship, working over the refit he's been overseeing for 18 months. And he can't even get the ship to warp. Spock shows up, and like 5 minutes later they have warp drive. Miracle worker?
Star Trek II - Scotty saves the day? Scotty takes the bullet for the team? Nope, it's not Mr. Scott - he knows what they're up against and he should've also known that he could also manually put the mains back on line, but NO - Spock has to hike all the way down from the bridge and kill himself because Scotty can't fix the ship. Way to go Scotty!
Star Trek III - they're hit by like one shot from a dinky Bird of Prey and all their systems are fried (because that's how Scotty does things - the Enterprise is always wired like a Christmas tree when he's doing the fixes). Result? Kirk has to destroy the Enterprise and they have to transport to the planet.
Significance: The only reason we put off with Scotty being drunk all the time and stabbing random Argelian women is that he supposed to save you when you're in a fix. But it turns out he only looks good because he inflates repair estimates and when you look closely, it turns out Spock was really the Chief Engineer.
The Evidence: TOS, TMP, TWoK, STIII.
Ever notice how when something was really broken on the Enterprise Mr. Spock would eventually have to go fix it?
This happened more than once in the series, but reconsider the movies. In TMP, Scotty has been with the whole refit of the Enterprise, but can't figure out the fuel equations to get to warp. When Kirk insists that they go to warp to intercept the BDO threatening Earth (Kirk was pushing here, but going to warp is like taking an elevator in Trek) they wind up in a worm hole. Heck, it wasn't even Scott who entered the solution - he stood back and had and underling take stab at it:
ASSISTANT ENGINEER: That's it, sir. I can't do any better.
SCOTT: Aye, lad. It's borderline on the simulator. Captain, I canna guarantee that she'll hold up.
So here is Scotty, on his ship, working over the refit he's been overseeing for 18 months. And he can't even get the ship to warp. Spock shows up, and like 5 minutes later they have warp drive. Miracle worker?
Star Trek II - Scotty saves the day? Scotty takes the bullet for the team? Nope, it's not Mr. Scott - he knows what they're up against and he should've also known that he could also manually put the mains back on line, but NO - Spock has to hike all the way down from the bridge and kill himself because Scotty can't fix the ship. Way to go Scotty!
Star Trek III - they're hit by like one shot from a dinky Bird of Prey and all their systems are fried (because that's how Scotty does things - the Enterprise is always wired like a Christmas tree when he's doing the fixes). Result? Kirk has to destroy the Enterprise and they have to transport to the planet.
Significance: The only reason we put off with Scotty being drunk all the time and stabbing random Argelian women is that he supposed to save you when you're in a fix. But it turns out he only looks good because he inflates repair estimates and when you look closely, it turns out Spock was really the Chief Engineer.
Well in TMP, Kirk forced Scotty's hand. Given more time Scotty might have been able to get warp drive fully functional.
Don't forget that the ship was pressed into service ahead of schedule. No doubt there where dozens if not hundreds of issues that had to be fixed just to get it out of space dock.
As for the problem with the Engines, was it a physical engineering issue or a mathematical one or a combination of the two. Scotty and Spock each have their areas of expertise.
As for the state of the ship in TSFS, I got the impression that Scotty worked on the ship after hours more or less by himself. With a full engineering team who knows what state it would have been in.
Don't forget that the ship was pressed into service ahead of schedule. No doubt there where dozens if not hundreds of issues that had to be fixed just to get it out of space dock.
As for the problem with the Engines, was it a physical engineering issue or a mathematical one or a combination of the two. Scotty and Spock each have their areas of expertise.
As for the state of the ship in TSFS, I got the impression that Scotty worked on the ship after hours more or less by himself. With a full engineering team who knows what state it would have been in.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Still, you've gotta admit. It doesn't look good. Spock shows up and has the engines working in a few minutes and he hasn't been working on the refit or hanging out in the engine room. He just shows up and figures out the fuel equations.
Wow... amazing how people can colorize Scotty to extremes--miracle worker or drunken slacker.
The movies are a very different kind of story. The feeling of them is quite different from TOS. And writers took certain liberties that did not leave Scotty in such a great position.
I agree, he looked a bit anemic on his engineering skills in TMP, requiring Mr. Spock to save the day (which was a terrible plot device, if I might add).
As for risking his life in ST-II... remember, Scotty is barely conscious when Kirk informs him of the dire circumstances.
KIRK: Scotty, I need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead!
(Spock arrives in engineering. Scott and an engineer are slumped on the floor)
Of course, it's a bit surprising how quickly he gets up once Spock is in the dilithium control chamber. What totally baffles me is how Spock grabs special gloves, but no helmet? I understand not having a suit exposes him to harmful radiation, but at least protecting his head would help him work longer before succumbing to the effects.
In ST-III you have to remember that Scotty had very little time to rig up the ship. What can you expect? Of course, it was a delicate hack bypassing the entire intentional design of the ship (meaning, a full crew to operate it). He didn't have time to bolster the jury-rig for dealing with combat, and he even says so. It's plausible for it to all go haywire, HOWEVER, it does bring up that crappy "plasma conduit explosion" effect that often plagues Star Trek. Wouldn't the shields be strong enough to deal with a Klingon scout ship?
So, don't be too hard on him...
The movies are a very different kind of story. The feeling of them is quite different from TOS. And writers took certain liberties that did not leave Scotty in such a great position.
I agree, he looked a bit anemic on his engineering skills in TMP, requiring Mr. Spock to save the day (which was a terrible plot device, if I might add).
As for risking his life in ST-II... remember, Scotty is barely conscious when Kirk informs him of the dire circumstances.
KIRK: Scotty, I need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead!
(Spock arrives in engineering. Scott and an engineer are slumped on the floor)
Of course, it's a bit surprising how quickly he gets up once Spock is in the dilithium control chamber. What totally baffles me is how Spock grabs special gloves, but no helmet? I understand not having a suit exposes him to harmful radiation, but at least protecting his head would help him work longer before succumbing to the effects.
In ST-III you have to remember that Scotty had very little time to rig up the ship. What can you expect? Of course, it was a delicate hack bypassing the entire intentional design of the ship (meaning, a full crew to operate it). He didn't have time to bolster the jury-rig for dealing with combat, and he even says so. It's plausible for it to all go haywire, HOWEVER, it does bring up that crappy "plasma conduit explosion" effect that often plagues Star Trek. Wouldn't the shields be strong enough to deal with a Klingon scout ship?
So, don't be too hard on him...
I don't give any of the "gang of four" a hard time based on the way they were portrayed in the movies. Trying to squeeze seven main characters into a two hour flick is a pretty daunting task. It's not really all that surprising--given the requirement of finding some way to get them all on screen, whether the story needed them or not--that the four lesser characters were often relegated to simple exposition or comic relief.
They were treated somewhat better during TOS, the series, but really only because if they weren't needed to do something meaningful, it was okay for an episode to just ignore them.
They were treated somewhat better during TOS, the series, but really only because if they weren't needed to do something meaningful, it was okay for an episode to just ignore them.
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