The Captain Edward Jellico Appreciation Society Thread!

[Mojochi]

I think you mean "shirt" not the other thing.

Eeek... typo lol although... it kind of works both ways hahaha

 

[Makarov]

Jellico managed to become adversarial with a first officer who has a history of going above and beyond for the captain. Ultimately his inability to inspire the crew could have cost them the mission. It also doesn't inspire confidence that him as captain could handle some of the other storylines which required less of a direct approach or more inspiration to do crazy stuff.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Jellico managed to become adversarial with a first officer who has a history of going above and beyond for the captain.

That's neither Jellico's fault, nor his problem. Besides, Riker may have a history of "going above and beyond" for PICARD, but who's to say he would do so for any captain who was not Picard?

Ultimately his inability to inspire the crew could have cost them the mission.

It's not Jellico's job, or indeed any captain's job, to "inspire" people. It's his job to accomplish his mission and get the crew to follow his orders. Both of which Jellico achieved.

 

[Makarov]

That's neither Jellico's fault, nor his problem. Besides, Riker may have a history of "going above and beyond" for PICARD, but who's to say he would do so for any captain who was not Picard?

It's partly his fault and it's definitely his problem when it interferes with the mission. We know Riker puts the safety of the captain above all based on his history. Jellico should have expected this based on key points in Riker's Starfleet records.

It's not Jellico's job, or indeed any captain's job, to "inspire" people. It's his job to accomplish his mission and get the crew to follow his orders. Both of which Jellico achieved.

The captain role does require inspiring the crew - I would be surprised if they didn't have a course in it during their command training. Morale is a factor in working effectively with the crew. He did succeed at the mission but this definitely hindered it from what we saw in the episode.

 

[BillJ]

It's partly his fault and it's definitely his problem when it interferes with the mission. We know Riker puts the safety of the captain above all based on his history. Jellico should have expected this based on key points in Riker's Starfleet records.

Jellico was more than cordial with Riker, until he found out Riker wasn't obeying his orders. You can't tell me Riker didn't have animosity towards Jellico after passing up several commands to wait for the Enterprise job to come open, only to be passed over for someone with more experience?

Riker's job as XO, is to carry out the captain's legal orders. If Riker had an issue with four shifts, his time to object is when the order is given. Not hours later without communicating the issue with the captain.

 

[Makarov]

The shift rotation thing is an issue of command style which again Jellico could have avoided by frank conversation. Some captains prefer it the way Riker had done it - come up to them at an appropriate time. He didn't know, got chewed out and moved on.

The audience knows that Riker isn't the only crew member who had a problem with Jellico. I liked his "Get it done" attitude, but it wasn't effective here since he didn't set it up right. He could have gotten the entire crew onboard with the Get it Done workflow with the right speech.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I liked Jellico's style.
They needed to be whipped into shape. It was too lackadaisical under Picard.

 

[Mojochi]

The captain role does require inspiring the crew. Morale is a factor in working effectively with the crew.

And I don't disagreed with that sentiment, under normal circumstances. (Which this isn't) I LIKE how Picard interacts with his crew. Riker moves often, without waiting on Picard's orders, because they've a longstanding working rapport. He has that latitude with Picard

However, consider Data addressing Hobson in Redemption 2, when he decides a course of action without consulting the captain 1st... a very different story. No working rapport means you just depend on the chain of command

Here, Riker takes for granted that he should have that same latitude, with a NEW captain, about what direction (& specifically what order) he should carry out. He was wrong, which put him in a small hole, that he willfully dug deeper. I sometimes call this episode "The Battle of Will" because of both Picard & Madred & also Jellico & Riker. Well guess what? That battle of will onboard the Enterprise is entirely Riker's doing. The top officer should never have to will you into doing what you are charged with. That's why there's an officer code to begin with.

So, back to your point. The captain is a leader, and yes, the leader role DOES require inspiring people, but the captain is also an officer, & the role of an officer may find itself in conflict with the role of a leader, specifically if they dump him with strangers, upset about losing their preferred commander, and dealt a crisis, wherein time is a HUGE factor. Inspiration should be the last thing on anybody's mind. Avoiding a 2nd Cardassian war ought to be an all consuming objective at the moment

Riker may not be the only one who had problems with this situation (Which you blame on Jellico, but actually comes from above) but he is the only one who let it interfere with his duty. I don't see Picard doing any better had they dumped him in a time critical, life threatening mission, with a bunch of strangers, who didn't want him in the 1st place. Picard is also not known as the most casual of guys, & I see him having to make a lot of the same demands as Jellico, without the luxury of personal trust & loyalty, or even congeniality, which seems to be everybody's main gripe. Picard ain't winning no congeniality prize either

They got uniforms on, man.

He could have gotten the entire crew onboard with the Get it Done workflow with the right speech.

So then your only real problem with the man is that he didn't give them some lofty oration? Must he have? All we ever hear on this show is how this crew is supposed to be the BEST there is. Isn't it possible he'd have considered them in that light, such that he'd just expect them to deliver what they are noted for ALWAYS delivering? He is in a huge pinch here. When the man literally states he doesn't have the luxury of giving anyone a chance, that ought to tell you all you need to know about the bind they've put him

 

[gillmanjr]

I liked Jellico's style.
They needed to be whipped into shape. It was too lackadaisical under Picard.

So what? They're explorers, not special forces operators. I'm not saying I didn't like Jellico, he did get the job done and I think Riker (and Laforge) could have done a better job getting with the program under Jellico, instead of whining about it. But at the same time I do think Jellico could have done a better job helping the crew to get on board with his way of doing things, especially considering the situation they were going into. It never seemed to me like the crew fully understood the situation from the outset, if Jellico had explained it maybe he'd have gotten better cooperation.

 

[BillJ]

So what? They're explorers, not special forces operators. I'm not saying I didn't like Jellico, he did get the job done and I think Riker (and Laforge) could have done a better job getting with the program under Jellico, instead of whining about it.

The difference between Riker and LaForge, was that LaForge made his issues known with the orders immediately to the chain of command. Jellico and Riker. He still carried out the orders as they were given.

Riker is the one that blows the relationship. He isn't in command. It isn't up to him when or if to carry out a captain's legal orders. Plus, by not carrying out the order, he is essentially calling Jellico a dumbass. Jellico was given command and likely all information pertaining to the Enterprise en route. He already knew that the Enterprise was capable of running four shifts and able to be upgraded.

It is funny. There are deleted scenes on the "Chain of Command" Blu-ray and they show the writers descriptions of what is in the scenes. In each scene, it is clear that Riker is supposed to be some kind of hero in all of this, but that isn't how it played out.

 

[Mojochi]

It never seemed to me like the crew fully understood the situation from the outset.

I agree, & I have no idea why that would be. They literally had an admiral sit them down & explain it all to them. They all knew how likely war was going to be after that meeting. That they put a new captain in place right then, & told Riker he wasn't the man for that job (even though he was the officer who commanded the ship during the Borg crisis) ought to be all the explanation anyone needed. It would be all I'd need to see, to know that life was about to get unpleasant. There is a certain amount that the top officer either can't divulge, or doesn't have time to handhold people through, & I think he did a very complete job of explaining himself throughout. The crew never valued his explanations as being worthwhile, like it was HIS presence alone that dictated this more militant posture, when surely that couldn't have been father from the truth

 

[Paradise City]

Yeah, the writers wanted us to see, in none too many words, a bit of Admiral Kirk in Riker defying the chain of command to bat for his pal Picard. Just a shame the backdrop carries with it the possibility of a terrible defeat for the Federation if our heroes miss a beat doesn't it?

Of course I'm not going to let Starfleet off the hook with their dumb move of getting their top captain to go on a flimsy commando run deep into enemy territory on dodgy intelligence.

 

[BillJ]

Of course I'm not going to let Starfleet off the hook with their dumb move of getting their top captain to go on a flimsy commando run deep into enemy territory on dodgy intelligence.

That's the nature of TV. We won't care if someone we've never seen before gets tortured. It has to be the star of the show.

 

[Makarov]

Trek frequently ignores/bends/breaks chain of command to do the right thing or what feels right. Including risking war for the safety of a couple crew members. Which is what Riker stood up for when he got canned.

I get that time is critical but I disagree on this giving Jellico a pass on his leadership score. A lot of the time all of the great captains are in dire time sensitive situations when they take a minute to get the crew unified. If you're going to head into war you don't want the crew moping about the former captain and against you. Troi even brings it up to Jellico and he doesn't do much about it.

Even Riker dealt with Shelby who blatantly questioned his command decisions in BOBW. He utilized her to her fullest potential and even ended up on friendly terms with her. And the stakes were higher and time was even more critical there as the borg were approaching earth. He didn't fire her and then waste time roaming the ship looking for a borg expert. To some degree I have to trust that Riker is a good judge of what makes a good captain.

That being said I do like the character and a Jellico spinoff would have been awesome. Something else I find interesting is Riker himself in many episodes has a Get it Done kind of attitude where he seems pissed off and impatient.

 

[BillJ]

Trek frequently ignores/bends/breaks chain of command to do the right thing or what feels right. Including risking war for the safety of a couple crew members. Which is what Riker stood up for when he got canned.

Riker threw a child-like temper tantrum because Jellico was doing the right thing. It wasn't the only thing that got Riker tossed, it was the final straw. I doubt Picard would've given up a planet with millions of Federation citizens on it for a single person. Though he is never put in that position.

 

[gillmanjr]

I don't know if anyone realized this but I believe Troi actually wears a proper uniform for the rest of the series after the Chain of Command episodes. So apparently Jellico had some influence on her....

 

[Nakita Akita]

So what? They're explorers, not special forces operators. I'm not saying I didn't like Jellico, he did get the job done and I think Riker (and Laforge) could have done a better job getting with the program under Jellico, instead of whining about it. But at the same time I do think Jellico could have done a better job helping the crew to get on board with his way of doing things, especially considering the situation they were going into. It never seemed to me like the crew fully understood the situation from the outset, if Jellico had explained it maybe he'd have gotten better cooperation.

Sometimes in a unit, there is only so much a commander can tell underlings.
That's just the way it is.
Jellico couldn't sit there and have a meeting or do a ship wide announcement.
He was the only one other than the three on the mission that knew what was going on.
And in all reality, Worf and the doctor didn't know everything until they were all in the shuttle.
Will and the others just needed to get with the program and realize that they didn't know everything that was transpiring

 

[Mojochi]

Of course I'm not going to let Starfleet off the hook with their dumb move of getting their top captain to go on a flimsy commando run deep into enemy territory on dodgy intelligence.

Exactly. This is something of a clusterf### from the top down. They pull it off, because all the front line officers desperately made it so, but command had its head up its a$$ on this one imho. An illegal op into Cardassian space, with an almost unthinkably unprepared & nearly incapable team of 3, to look for highly suspect bioweapons, based on Krieger wave nonsense, which only 1 active officer knows anything about, & no one at all upstairs smells a setup? Really? Get with it, dipsticks. Left to his own devices, Picard wouldn't even go into the Romulan neutral zone (with his defector) without cloaked Klingon backup. That's the smart move. This op was sheer idiocy

However, In a nutshell, everybody's only real issue with Jellico, is that he's unapologetically stepping in, as directed & expecting the best from these people, perhaps even asking the nearly impossible of them (As even he himself thinks the mission should fail). I've literally seen Picard have to do the very same thing, (The Sheliak) but it goes smoother because he is familiar with this crew.

Any other issue people (& specifically Riker) have with this captain is a social and/or emotional one, overwhelmingly illustrated by the fact that Data has not one single issue with anything the man orders or expects. On the contrary, Data & Jellico excel together, & once they have a proper functioning chain of command working, so does everybody else, & I don't accept that it's the "Hobson" argument, of Data having less concern for living emotional beings, who he serves with. That has been disproven time & time again. No... people are getting wrapped up in their emotions here, & frankly, in a uniformed code of conduct, during a crisis, with war on the line, you table that sh#t, & take the shovelful from the top deck.

 

[Philip Guyott]

I had wondered why Starfleet Command did not just give Riker command instead of bringing in Jellico. In hindsight it was the right decision. Had Riker been in command he would have placed Picard's life over that of the mission, which would have caused a war in which thousands would have died. "A futile manuever. Incorrect strategy, Number One, to risk your crew and ship to retrieve only one man. Picard would never have approved."

It is funny. There are deleted scenes on the "Chain of Command" Blu-ray and they show the writers descriptions of what is in the scenes. In each scene, it is clear that Riker is supposed to be some kind of hero in all of this, but that isn't how it played out.

In one of the deleted scenes Deanna tells Jellico that the Cardassians will torture Captain Picard for information, Jellico agrees so he asks Deanna to contact Starfleet Command and have them change any sensitive codes that Picard had access to, just in case. Deanna is not pleased. - Again Jellico is in the right here. He is made out to be the bad guy in the scene, but of course Starfleet should change his command codes. I am surprised Starfleet had not done so before sending Picard on the mission, just in case.

 

[BillJ]

I had wondered why Starfleet Command did not just give Riker command instead of bringing in Jellico.

Jellico had more experience dealing with the Cardassians.

NECHAYEV: I'm giving him command of the Enterprise this afternoon. Captain Jellico helped to negotiate the original armistice two years ago and I believe he's the most qualified person to lead this mission.