The Captain Edward Jellico Appreciation Society Thread!

[Herbert]

I think Admiral2 needs a Snickers

 

[Admiral2]

^Is it a nice chest?

Nope. It's hairy and kinda flabby...

I think Admiral2 needs a Snickers

Can't. Allergic to chocolate. I'm up for a good piece of lemon cake, though...

 

[Gary7]

Also, I'm getting a little tired of people talking about how "hard" changing procedures aboard the Enterprise would be because canon proves otherwise. We are talking about episodes in season 6 of TNG. If you'd been watching the series straight through the past five and a half seasons you know that the technology aboard the Enterprise-D is designed to facilitate change. The Galaxy Class starship and the systems inside her are the epitome of an Open Design Architecture. You can configure each control surface to whatever set-up you need. You can change the way the main deflector and shields operate for any given situation. You can make the Bussard Collectors expel material instead of attracting it. You can redesign systems using the holodeck and even create new systems there and tie them into the operation of the ship. In five and a half years the crew of the Enterprise has reconfigured the ship's systems to do things that I'm sure the engineers at Utopia Planitia would have told you to go pound sand if you'd suggested making them standard functions when they built the thing, and they often did those things under serious time pressure.

So the notion that the changes Jellico wanted them to make in a day or too would have been "too hard" is utter bullshit. They could do it, because they have done things just as hard and in just as little time, and the only reason it was harder in this instance was because they spent more time whining about the changes than actually making them.

"But Jellico was mean! He shouldn't have been mean!" Pay attention: In the history of human beings being called "Captain" and being given command of ships, never once has being nice been a job requirement. He doesn't have to be your friend, he doesn't have to be your bro, he doesn't have to join you and the other officers for poker, he doesn't have to be your father figure. His only function is to make decisions and issue orders based on those decisions, and it is the job of his subordinates to follow those orders, period.

Maybe I should have qualified a little further.
Starfleet has military and science missions. The USS Enterprise was not a warship. They have the Dreadnought class for that. The USS Enterprise has been a flagship vessel of exploration, not a battleship. Now, that does not preclude the Enterprise from engaging in battle. It has to be prepared for that. And it has been... we've seen it go into battle before. But it's not the primary mission.

Anytime a vessel has a commander, he sets the tone and structure for how his command will be. The crew acclimates to it. It doesn't happen in just a few days. It takes time. Jellico came on board and started making drastic changes, expecting the crew to fall in line in just one day. And for what? Is it common practice for a Starfleet vessel to operate on a 4 shift rotation? What's wrong with 3 shifts? Certainly the Enterprise crew demonstrated their ability to handle it. Yes, the Enterprise doesn't end up in battle, because Jellico manages to negotiate well enough to avoid it. But had they gone into battle, I'll bet anything that the main structure is a 3 shift rotation, but other crew members will do double-shifts in a pinch.

Jellico made a demand upon the ship that didn't seem to be truly warranted. He didn't make any kind of clear assessment that the crew couldn't handle the job with a 3 shift rotation. It's Jellico who is used to operating things that way and wanted to make the change purely because of that. Jellico can't rip everything apart in short notice and expect it all to run smoothly.

Enough with this "permanent or temporary" nonsense. There is such a thing called a "temporary duty assignment," TDY. If Starfleet Command considered Jellico's command of the ship a TDY assignment, they would have told him, Picard and the crew it was a TDY assignment.

There was a Change of Command ceremony, where Picard was relieved of his command of the Enterprise and Jellico was ordered to assume command of the Enterprise. Nobody had to walk around saying "temporary this" or "temporary that" because the only people with the right to say that - their mutual superiors - made Captain Edward Jellico the rightful commanding officer of the Federation Starship Enterprise, and anyone with half a brain would have to accept that assignment as permanent unless and until there is another Change of Command ceremony. If their intention had always been to return Picard to the center seat on Enterprise, then you have no idea when or if that second ceremony will take place because you don't know if Picard's going to live through the mission he was sent on, so you have to assume the assignment is permanent because Command hasn't said otherwise and circumstances may force the issue.

It's not nonsense. TDY or permanent, they'd have the same ceremony. Jellico was taking over for an undisclosed period of time, not "in a pinch." I know that Starfleet didn't specify it as TDY, but it ended up being so. Wasn't that their intention all along? Or were they expecting that the chances of Picard returning weren't very good? If Picard is one of the best Starfleet captains, why "throw him away" on such a mission, when he's a very valuable asset? I think they had great trust in Picard and expected that he would return.

Anyway, I won't push this part. It's not as important as the other point about readiness and Jellico's unwillingness to be flexible with the situation.

Entenman's makes a pretty good lemon poppy seed cake.

 

[BillJ]

Starfleet has military and science missions. The USS Enterprise was not a warship. They have the Dreadnought class for that. The USS Enterprise has been a flagship vessel of exploration, not a battleship. Now, that does not preclude the Enterprise from engaging in battle. It has to be prepared for that. And it has been... we've seen it go into battle before. But it's not the primary mission.

Starfleet obviously see it as such, making it the command vessel in that sector of space should hostilities break out.

 

[Admiral2]

Maybe I should have qualified a little further.
Starfleet has military and science missions. The USS Enterprise was not a warship. They have the Dreadnought class for that. The USS Enterprise has been a flagship vessel of exploration, not a battleship. Now, that does not preclude the Enterprise from engaging in battle. It has to be prepared for that. And it has been... we've seen it go into battle before. But it's not the primary mission.

All true...and not a bit of it matters a damn in this situation. Jellico is a military commander given a military mission, and the Enterprise is the ship he was given to accomplish that mission with, which means as soon as his command codes were recognized by the computer, the Enterprise was effectively a warship, and he had every right to command it as if it were one.

And let me take the opportunity to vent about another bullshit argument: the "not military" argument. Any organization that uses military ranks to establish its seniority structure has to adhere to the accepted rules that go along with those ranks. A commercial airline is not a military organization, but a commercial airliner is flown by a Captain, and the crew is expected to treat that pilot as a Captain, which means treating him as the absolute authority on board the airplane. If the co-pilot crosses his arms and pouts and refuses to carry out an order because the Captain didn't ask politely, the co-pilot is the one being the dick, as well as the one bringing risk to the aircraft.

Anytime a vessel has a commander, he sets the tone and structure for how his command will be. The crew acclimates to it. It doesn't happen in just a few days. It takes time.

Time which the Captain is under no obligation to give them.

Jellico came on board and started making drastic changes, expecting the crew to fall in line in just one day.

Everybody needs to review the definition of the word drastic.

Let's go over the changes Ol' Darth Jellico wanted to make.

"Counselor, wear a standard uniform." It would take as much time as necessary for anybody to change clothes (if she had a uniform ready. It may take a whole three seconds more if she had to replicate one.)

"Change these two screens from Science to Tactical." Again, the controls on the ship are designed to do that! Two whole seconds.

"Change the shift rotation from three shifts to four." I cannot for the life of me understand the gasping and pants-wetting involved in the reactions to this order. In real life this would be carried out at the duty officer level, literally some fresh-faced ensign would take a piece of paper, divide 24 hours into four shifts of six hours each and transfer names from a roster into the different shifts, then kick the new schedule back up the chain for approval. It's the work of an hour. Two tops. "Significant personnel disruptions" my ass. Is the crew saying it would be that hard to take the number of crew members and divide it by four???

(BTW, in a later episode of the series Picard did exactly that after Riker suggested it. Nobody peed themselves over it then.)

And you're complaining that he wanted this done in a day? Even the most significant change, as quoted upthread, would only take a day. So we're supposed to hate Jellico for making the crew take the amount of time the changes would take anyway? Get the fuck outta here!

And for what? Is it common practice for a Starfleet vessel to operate on a 4 shift rotation? What's wrong with 3 shifts?

Dude, what's wrong with four shifts?

Certainly the Enterprise crew demonstrated their ability to handle it. Yes, the Enterprise doesn't end up in battle, because Jellico manages to negotiate well enough to avoid it. But had they gone into battle, I'll bet anything that the main structure is a 3 shift rotation, but other crew members will do double-shifts in a pinch.

Jellico made a demand upon the ship that didn't seem to be truly warranted. He didn't make any kind of clear assessment that the crew couldn't handle the job with a 3 shift rotation. It's Jellico who is used to operating things that way and wanted to make the change purely because of that. Jellico can't rip everything apart in short notice and expect it all to run smoothly.

Who says it was unwarranted? For one thing, if they had implemented the four shift rotation when Jellico asked for it, then the "round-the clock" work Geordie whined about would have had a smaller impact on the crew, because they would only be spending six hours at their jobs at a time instead of eight. Also, yes the situation was resolved without a battle, but if things had gone south, Jellico would have gone into battle with a more rested crew, again, because they would have spent two fewer hours at their posts before the battle was engaged.

Just because you can't think of a reason to change the shift rotation doesn't mean Jellico had no reason to.

It's not nonsense. TDY or permanent, they'd have the same ceremony. Jellico was taking over for an undisclosed period of time, not "in a pinch." I know that Starfleet didn't specify it as TDY, but it ended up being so. Wasn't that their intention all along?

As a member of the crew, unless you're a Vulcan with a really bad-ass long range mind meld, you wouldn't have the first idea what Starfleet Command's intentions were, so all you can go by is their actions, and they acted to put Jellico in command. How long he's there is none of your business.

Or were they expecting that the chances of Picard returning weren't very good? If Picard is one of the best Starfleet captains, why "throw him away" on such a mission, when he's a very valuable asset? I think they had great trust in Picard and expected that he would return.

Then why not just leave Riker in command until he got back and send Jellico in the Cairo to deal with the Cardassians? Answer: Because they wanted Jellico and they wanted Enterprise and Picard's disposition at the end of his mission wasn't a factor in heir decision. Again, they gave Jellico command, without caveats or provisos.

Anyway, I won't push this part. It's not as important as the other point about readiness and Jellico's unwillingness to be flexible with the situation.

The ship's lack of readiness was caused by a recalcitrant crew, and the Captain is not obligated to be flexible.

 

[Gary7]

I do not want to engage in a lengthy debate with you Admiral2. This multiple slicing/dicing of individual segments of content makes it cumbersome to respond going beyond 3, and I'm not willing to engage it.

I never said I hate Jellico. You keep putting words in my mouth. That also makes this a pissing contest, not a constructive debate. You want to win? Fine. I'll pin a medal on you if it makes you happy. I don't give a when the debate tone becomes hostile.

I served in the US Air Force. I participated in a 4 shift rotation on deployment. We were on/off/on/off... that meant working 6 hours, off 6 hours, rinse and repeat. You don't get 8 hours of sleep. You're on overdrive. It's really no big deal if you do it for a week or two, but permanently? It messes with your morale. Jellico gave no timeframe for the change. And you're telling me a ship that is well accustomed to a 3 shift rotation should just take it without any erosion of morale? Repeatedly, we're told in Star Trek that the Enterprise is not a warship. And if it's going to serve as one for an extended period of time, it makes sense for the commander to set the tone. Jellico could have done that. It takes just a few minutes to be nice. But he took command, and without any follow up just said "Dismissed" to everyone present. No back story. No setting of expectations. He could have managed it better.

Normal military operations is 3 shift. If you're in an battle situation, you switch to 4. There was no reason to have the whole crew "wound up tight", as Riker remarked. I realize you disagree. Fine. But you're not changing my mind. This and his attitude towards the crew was my only complaint about Jellico. The uniform for Deanna and the reconfiguration of screens -- no big deal. The pressure on Geordi? Understandable. Those engines needed to be in top form for battle. We've seen far too many cases of the Enterprise getting pummeled in combat, probably due to less than 100% readiness.

"Get the fuck outta here!"

Seriously?

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

And you're complaining that he wanted this done in a day? Even the most significant change, as quoted upthread, would only take a day. So we're supposed to hate Jellico for making the crew take the amount of time the changes would take anyway? Get the fuck outta here!

Right on the edge of flaming/trolling. Not welcome in this forum.

 

[Admiral2]

I do not want to engage in a lengthy debate with you Admiral2. This multiple slicing/dicing of individual segments of content makes it cumbersome to respond going beyond 3, and I'm not willing to engage it.

I never said I hate Jellico. You keep putting words in my mouth. That also makes this a pissing contest, not a constructive debate. You want to win? Fine. I'll pin a medal on you if it makes you happy. I don't give a when the debate tone becomes hostile.

I served in the US Air Force. I participated in a 4 shift rotation on deployment. We were on/off/on/off... that meant working 6 hours, off 6 hours, rinse and repeat. You don't get 8 hours of sleep. You're on overdrive. It's really no big deal if you do it for a week or two, but permanently? It messes with your morale. Jellico gave no timeframe for the change. And you're telling me a ship that is well accustomed to a 3 shift rotation should just take it without any erosion of morale? Repeatedly, we're told in Star Trek that the Enterprise is not a warship. And if it's going to serve as one for an extended period of time, it makes sense for the commander to set the tone. Jellico could have done that. It takes just a few minutes to be nice. But he took command, and without any follow up just said "Dismissed" to everyone present. No back story. No setting of expectations. He could have managed it better.

Normal military operations is 3 shift. If you're in an battle situation, you switch to 4. There was no reason to have the whole crew "wound up tight", as Riker remarked. I realize you disagree. Fine. But you're not changing my mind. This and his attitude towards the crew was my only complaint about Jellico. The uniform for Deanna and the reconfiguration of screens -- no big deal. The pressure on Geordi? Understandable. Those engines needed to be in top form for battle. We've seen far too many cases of the Enterprise getting pummeled in combat, probably due to less than 100% readiness.

"Get the fuck outta here!"

Seriously?

I get what you're saying about the Air Force and the military in general, but the last time I checked the US Air Force was not equipped with luxury space craft with computers that do half your work for you, which means switching from three shifts to four couldn't possibly have the same impact on the Enterprise crew that it would have on Air Force personnel on deployment, especially when you consider that there's no indication that Enterprise uses the same on/off concept that the military does. All indications are that when the crew are talking about shifts, they mean standard shifts, which means eight-on and the next sixteen off, which means if they switched to six hour shifts the entire crew gets two more hours of crew rest each twenty-four period. That's the way it looks and sounds on screen. If there's any indication in canon that that's not how their normal shifts work, I'd love somebody to show it to me.

Will there be a drop in morale? Of course, because people tend to hate change, but there's a difference between being bummed about the changes and straight-up insubordination, and in this episode the senior officers aboard traipsed along the edge of the wrong end of that spectrum and tried to justify it by declaring Jellico an a-hole for making changes they didn't like. That's unfair as hell, no matter what you think of Jellico's personality.

I won't change your mind? I don't go into these threads expecting to change minds. I'm too old to waste that much energy. I'm simply fighting my corner. Edward Jellico was a good commander given a difficult mission and a crew that seemed more concerned with etiquette than accomplishing the mission goals. In an ideal situation he would have been able to bring his own officers aboard, but he couldn't. He didn't have time, nor did he have time to explain every single detail about what he wanted done to people who were obligated to do it anyway. He had an invasion to stop, and only one ship to stop it with. I refuse to join in chastising him for not saying "Please."

 

[Mudd]

The whole premise is absurd.

Starfleet threw everything they could muster at the Borg, and got their asses kicked.

Earth was fucked. The Federation was fucked.

Captain William Riker and his Enterprise crew - one ship - stopped the Borg from destroying everything.

A few years later a truculent old self-impressed officer is posted temporarily aboard and yammers about "insubordination" and such nonsense. He has no idea how to make good use of the people he commands.

Truth is, he was simply insecure at having someone he knew to be more capable than himself serving under him.

Jellico sucked.

 

[Takeru]

Jellico sucked.

No, the Enterprise crew sucked, mostly Riker and Geordie. They were unprofessional crybabies, they were complaining that the captain acted like he was in command and gets to order them around.

Jellico's mission was to prevent a war if possible and he succeeded at that and got Picard back on top of that when the episode made it clear starfleet was more than willing to abandon Picard! That he wanted to get the ship battle ready in case he failed makes him an even better captain. This wasn't a "Ferry diplomat from A to B" mission or a "Hey, let's look at that thing" side adventure, the federation was at the brink of war and that must have out a lot of pressure on Jellico. He wasn't doing all of that for shits and giggles, millions of lifes were potentially in danger but "OMG, he wasn't nice enough and didn't bake cookies before giving an order someone might not appreciate".

 

[JesterFace]

Whether Jellico was a good captain or not, that's debatable, but he sure behaved like a little kid who doesn't get what he wants.

 

[BillJ]

Normal military operations is 3 shift. If you're in an battle situation, you switch to 4.

So then what Jellico did should have been the expected norm for a trained crew?

 

[BillJ]

Whether Jellico was a good captain or not, that's debatable, but he sure behaved like a little kid who doesn't get what he wants.

How do you think Picard would've reacted if Riker had told him he'd reconnect the saucer later, or didn't do it at all?

 

[Mudd]

No, the Enterprise crew sucked, mostly Riker and Geordie.

The Enterprise crew always comes through - that's why the show's about them and not about the likes of Jellico.

Riker saved the Federation when the rest of Starfleet was ineffectual.

Where was Jellico at the Battle of Wolf 357, hmmm?

 

[Herbert]

Where was Jellico at the Battle of Wolf 357, hmmm?

No one was at Wolf 357

 

[Herbert]

I think this whole Jellico thing comes down to the fact that the Enterprise crew had become quite like a family and less like a purely martial/military type crew. They knew each other. They liked each other. There was a familiarity that you wouldn't have on other vessels, perhaps any vessels. (this was a TV show after all ) When Picard was replaced by Jellico and it had the appearance of being permanent, and then they saw how different Jellico was from Picard, they reacted poorly. It was an emotional response. Was it unprofessional and perhaps insubordinate? Yes, but not all that surprising considering how they all felt about Picard. Troy didn't help matters by admitting to Riker that Jellico was not as confident as he appeared to be.

 

[Gary7]

The whole premise is absurd.

Starfleet threw everything they could muster at the Borg, and got their asses kicked.

Earth was fucked. The Federation was fucked.

Captain William Riker and his Enterprise crew - one ship - stopped the Borg from destroying everything.

A few years later a truculent old self-impressed officer is posted temporarily aboard and yammers about "insubordination" and such nonsense. He has no idea how to make good use of the people he commands.

Truth is, he was simply insecure at having someone he knew to be more capable than himself serving under him.

Jellico sucked.

I agree with you Serveaux up until your last line. But thank you for adding this -- yes indeed, the Enterprise was up against the Borg, a far more formidable enemy than the Cardassians... and without a 4 shift rotation, they successfully fought the Borg cube.

I don't think Jellico sucked. I think he was stubborn. Forcing his way of doing things on a crew used to operating differently, expecting them to adjust in just 1 day. He didn't have to say "please", but he could have been less of an ass in his attitude. I think a lot of Jellico defenders are misunderstanding what it means to be an effective leader. Look at Picard. He got his people to do great things for him, while being generally pleasant to his crew. They liked him. They were loyal. Jellico made no pretense to sympathize with the sudden change. NONE. And I think that backfired on him.

The only member of the crew "rolling with it" was Data... and that's because he doesn't have to contend with emotions.

But... I have to say that Riker screwed up. At least initially. If he was facing an obstacle that kept him from achieving the shift rotation change within Jellico's time frame, he should have informed him immediately instead of "sitting on it" until Jellico asked. "I was going to tell you"... WTF? That did look bad. In the long run, it was one bump. Riker eventually got everything done and the crew was ready.

 

[BillJ]

Jellico made no pretense to sympathize with the sudden change. NONE. And I think that backfired on him.

Probably because he was told the Enterprise crew was the best of the best. He figured he wouldn't need to nurse maid them through the change in command.

 

[Gary7]

Probably because he was told the Enterprise crew was the best of the best. He figured he wouldn't need to nurse maid them through the change in command.

"Nursemaid" goes quite a bit too far, IMHO, if you keep it all in context.

If Picard was still in command, I envision he'd have instructed Riker like this: "Commander Riker, in view of the impending circumstances, we'll need to operate on a 4 shift rotation, starting with the next shift. I want to be 100% battle ready in case things go wrong with the Cardassians. And see about assigning more engineers to Geordi's staff. We need engineering to be running at maximum efficiency during this engagement."

How would Riker have reacted? How about "Yes, sir. But regarding the shift rotation change, it will have a major impact on a lot of departments and I'm concerned about quality of work. Would you be OK if we started with the 4 shift rotation after the next 2 shifts?"

Picard might have said "OK Will, but if I give you that leeway, I'll expect everything running flawlessly by then." Or, he might have said "I understand your concerns Will, but time is of the essence. Start it on the next shift and we'll have to manage as best we can." And Riker would have complied.

Did Picard say "Please" in that scenario? He didn't have to. Normal, respectful discussion about the implementation of a command. That's all. An XO is there to serve the captain and offer up alternatives as he sees them. That's how Riker and Picard operated through most of the series.

Any commander will have their own style. They can be a hard ass if they wish and technically that should not be cause for less compliance to orders... but it doesn't need to be that way. You can be amicable and get things done, while keeping up morale. That's my beef with Jellico.

 

[BillJ]

If Picard was still in command, I envision he'd have instructed Riker like this: "Commander Riker, in view of the impending circumstances, we'll need to operate on a 4 shift rotation, starting with the next shift. I want to be 100% battle ready in case things go wrong with the Cardassians. And see about assigning more engineers to Geordi's staff. We need engineering to be running at maximum efficiency during this engagement."

Right from "Chain of Command I":

JELLICO: How many duty watches does the crew stand?
RIKER: We've a standard three shift rotation.
JELLICO: I'd like to change that to four starting tonight. I'd also like to examine the duty roster and the crew evaluations as soon as possible. I want readiness reports from each department head by fourteen hundred hours, and a meeting of the senior staff at fifteen hundred. Do you prefer Will or William?
RIKER: Er, Will, sir.
(Jellico steps into a turbolift)
JELLICO: Where are my quarters, Will?
RIKER: We have you assigned to cabin seven thirty five. Deck si
JELLICO: Deck seven. I'll see you at thirteen hundred hours.

Not sure how much nicer Jellico needed to be?

 

[Gary7]

Not sure how much nicer Jellico needed to be?

You're quoting one interaction, which I agree was perfectly fine. There were plenty of others that weren't... and that's what framed so many polarized opinions about him.