The Borg ships VOY introduced

[exodus]

i reckon the power output of phasers and shields was a lot bigger on both e-e and defiant than on voyager, and they stored a lot more torpedoes. where all that energy came from on the small defiant is difficult to understand, it's power core looked a bit undersized, but it was a dedicated warship, and voyager is not.

I think is the problem.
I think we assume that sometimes bigger means more powerful and that because Defiant=warship, that any other Starfleet ship is weaker in comparision.

Indeed.
I actually proposed that the Intrepid is in fact a downsized Galaxy class.
Equal in shield/weapons output but overall smaller torpedo count and size while being faster.

The Defiant can probably rival larger ships because it doesn't have any luxuries on-board and most of it's systems were specifically made to fight the Borg.
The Intrepid is able to rival it's larger 'brothers' because it has a medium between luxuries and tech for combat.
The luxuries were downsized to the amount where it would be able to cater to a crew of only 150 leaving the rest for more powerful energy source, shields and weapons.

The Galaxy class is FILLED with luxuries in contrast and has to accommodate a much larger crew.

Bigger doesn't always mean 'more powerful' in Trek.

BINGO!!!
The Intrepid is nothing but bridge & cargo bays and very little of anything else.
The energy output in a larger ships goes to all other labs & operations that ship has.
The Intrepids have none of that to worry about and as you said, the power output is then put into sheilds & weapons. We saw it when it took at least 3 Kazon battle cruisers to try and bring it's sheilds down.
We've seen Voyager still go up against a Tactical Cube and it's shields held.
We've seen a Galaxy class go up against a Romulan Warbird and within to hits it's sheilds are almost gone.

 

[Kai Winn]

yes, but galaxy can also take them offline, and divert the shield's energy to the phasers, odysee did shortly before it was destroyed. we never see voyager doing that. the galaxy class got substantial upgrades during the shows, and it is certainly not wrong to guess that a ship 7 times the volume and crew of the intrepid class is better protected and armed.
defiant's small size must have advantages for it's shields, it's highly maneuverable, and it can fire all phasers at the target in a head-on assault, while voyager has only one. the pulsating phaser also seems to be more powerful.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

I know VOY gets flack for being able to do any damage whatsoever to any Borg ship, and it was considered "heresy" that they could blow up that Probe ship that one time but there's something else I've noticed:

 

[Lorna]

I know VOY gets flack for being able to do any damage whatsoever to any Borg ship, and it was considered "heresy" that they could blow up that Probe ship that one time but there's something else I've noticed:

The Borg Tactical Sphere and the Borg Tactical Cube shown in the series were actually both still MUCH smaller than the massive "Assimilation" Cubes we saw in Q Who?, BOBW, FC and Scorpion.

Is it likely that despite having cooler names both of these ship types are actually much weaker than the "normal" Cube type seen (which was practically unstoppable)? I saw a size comparison chart once that showed a Tactical Sphere not being that much bigger than a few Sovereign class ships, certainly not the massive Cube size seen in FC or BOBW.

Well look at the name, Tactical Cube. What makes it tactical? surely not the added armour on the outside? that just adds better defence so what makes it more tactical in a fight?

I would imagine it's far more tactical because it's smaller making it faster and more manoeuvrable. Another tactical advantage is that a smaller cube being lost is not as much a problem to the collective than a giant assimilation cube. The entire reason why it had the armour plating on the outside is because it was smaller so they compensated with the armour.

When it comes to general assimilation of planets it makes sense to have a much larger vessel with far more drones allowing for a bigger and better assimilation.

The Defiant can probably rival larger ships because it doesn't have any luxuries on-board and most of it's systems were specifically made to fight the Borg.

The Defiant took on an upgraded Excelsior Class ship (USS Lakota) and managed to overpower it in that episode where Sisko goes to Earth to head security.

 

[Anwar]

What makes it Tactical is the name, and name alone. It's just a designation. It's meant for smaller ship-to-ship engagements not big assimilation missions like the massive BOBW Cube. So it makes sense it'd be weaker than the massive Assimilation Cube and easier to take on in normal combat.

 

[Kai Winn]

Well look at the name, Tactical Cube. What makes it tactical? surely not the added armour on the outside? that just adds better defence so what makes it more tactical in a fight?

if me make a comparison with the designation here, tactical nucular weapons have a lower range and yield than strategic nukes. the armour also suggests it's less powerful, compensating for weaker shields.
however, if we assume that size doesn't matter in the federation fleet, why should it in the borg's? it could also be interpreted that this cube is their warship, build for battle, without all the installations to devour other species and technologies. maybe an adaption to fight something like 8472.

 

[Deks]

The Defiant took on an upgraded Excelsior Class ship (USS Lakota) and managed to overpower it in that episode where Sisko goes to Earth to head security.

Incorrect.
Watch that episode again and you will see that both ships were equally matched.
They both had quantum torpedoes left with significant damage and neither wanted to pull the trigger because of the deaths that would ensue.

On a side note, Voyager rerouted power from shields to it's weapons on more than one occasion.
They even routed Warp power directly into the weapons.

Routing energy from one system to the other is fairly simple for ANY Federation ship.

 

[Jefferies]

Okay so I understand people do not agree with my assertion that the Intrepid is weaker than the Defiant class. So I will through in a few points that have made me come to this conclusion over the years.

The Defiant has a number of advanced weapon systems that the Intrepid seems to lack. That is such systems were never seen or mentioned on Voyager but repeatedly used and talked about on DS9.

Item one: Ablative Armor. The Defiant Class possess a special kind of hull plating that is capable of dissapating energy from weapon impacts even after its shields are down. It was explained numerous times that this was a significant advantage that gave the Defiant a true edge over other ship designs.

Item two: rapid fire quantum torpedoe launchers. The Defiant had four of these. Need I say more? Voyager had nothing like them. It was also established that quantum torpedoes are a superior weapon to photon torpedoes.

Item three: pulse phaser cannons. These seemed to be far more powerful than your average phaser array. The Defiant used them repeatedly to tear through whole squadrons of enemy ships. Never have I seen that being accomplished so reliably and consistantly with any kind of phaser beam weapon.

So the intrepid has lots of phaser arrays and two fore and aft photon torpedoe launchers. But consider, even the Miranda had that amount of torpedoe bays. And phaser beam arrays by themselves have been shown to lack punch on a fair amount of occaisons. The Defiant on the otherhand has several weapon systems that were intended to be heavy hitters. In fact that's the whole idea behind the class. Just because a single one of them can't bring down a Borg cube doesn't mean the design is a failure. And I'm sure this wasn't what you were implying. Starfleet too seemed to recognise what a great ship this was as increased numbers of them started poping up on screen in the second half of the 2370s. Unlike the Interpid class of which we know only three to have ever been commissioned (i.e. the Intrepid herself, Voyager and the Beleraphon). If she were such a fantastic combat vessel surely they would have built more of them during the War?

 

[exodus]

yes, but galaxy can also take them offline, and divert the shield's energy to the phasers, odysee did shortly before it was destroyed. we never see voyager doing that.

Again, Voyager is more advanced.
Why would you keep putting flaws back into newer ships once you've been mad aware of them in the older ones?

the galaxy class got substantial upgrades during the shows, and it is certainly not wrong to guess that a ship 7 times the volume and crew of the intrepid class is better protected and armed.

Yeah it would be because they've already told and showed us for 7 seasons that it was

defiant's small size must have advantages for it's shields, it's highly maneuverable, and it can fire all phasers at the target in a head-on assault, while voyager has only one. the pulsating phaser also seems to be more powerful.

This means nothing.
Voyager has shown it's phasers can fire in a multitude of directions.
We seen(several times) and have been told(several times) Voyager is way faster and highly maneuverable as well

 

[exodus]

Okay so I understand people do not agree with my assertion that the Intrepid is weaker than the Defiant class. So I will through in a few points that have made me come to this conclusion over the years.

The Defiant has a number of advanced weapon systems that the Intrepid seems to lack. That is such systems were never seen or mentioned on Voyager but repeatedly used and talked about on DS9.

Item one: Ablative Armor. The Defiant Class possess a special kind of hull plating that is capable of dissapating energy from weapon impacts even after its shields are down. It was explained numerous times that this was a significant advantage that gave the Defiant a true edge over other ship designs.

Item two: rapid fire quantum torpedoe launchers. The Defiant had four of these. Need I say more? Voyager had nothing like them. It was also established that quantum torpedoes are a superior weapon to photon torpedoes.

Item three: pulse phaser cannons. These seemed to be far more powerful than your average phaser array. The Defiant used them repeatedly to tear through whole squadrons of enemy ships. Never have I seen that being accomplished so reliably and consistantly with any kind of phaser beam weapon.

So the intrepid has lots of phaser arrays and two fore and aft photon torpedoe launchers. But consider, even the Miranda had that amount of torpedoe bays. And phaser beam arrays by themselves have been shown to lack punch on a fair amount of occaisons. The Defiant on the otherhand has several weapon systems that were intended to be heavy hitters. In fact that's the whole idea behind the class. Just because a single one of them can't bring down a Borg cube doesn't mean the design is a failure. And I'm sure this wasn't what you were implying. Starfleet too seemed to recognise what a great ship this was as increased numbers of them started poping up on screen in the second half of the 2370s. Unlike the Interpid class of which we know only three to have ever been commissioned (i.e. the Intrepid herself, Voyager and the Beleraphon). If she were such a fantastic combat vessel surely they would have built more of them during the War?

Just because we didn't see a bunch of them, doesn't mean there aren't more. It also doesn't seem you're taking into considering each ships functions as to why the Defiant in comparison to the Intrepid class. Voyager is still intended as a ship of peace and exploration first, the Defiant is not. There is more to what the Intrepid class was made for beyond it's armament. Most Starfleet ships are made with defensive combat in mind, even as a secondary function.

 

[Magellan]

Also people need to keep in mind that the Intrepid class is by no means a warship. It was built as a science and exploration vessel. Compared to ships like the Defiant class and Sovereign class it has much less and much weaker weapons.

How can we tell? The number of phaser strips on the Voyager is basically the same as on the E-E, while the smaller ship has better overall coverage. The number of phaser strips or other phaser mounts on the Voyager is vastly greater than on the Defiant. Torpedo tube count seems to be something like Voyager 4, Defiant 4, E-E 5 at minimum in the early movies, 10 at maximum in ST:NEM.

We never hear what the Voyager was built for, unless we count Tom Paris' humorous "for combat performance, not musical performance". If we want to divine her intended mission, we have only two examples to go by: the Maquis hunt from "Caretaker", and the courier mission of a sister ship from DS9 "Inter Arma Silet Leges". All the rest of the exploits of this ship class were unintended, imposed on the ship by the Delta quadrant, and would have to have been performed even if she happened to be an Oberth or Juggernaut class vessel.

For all we know, the Voyager was intended to be a combat vessel by design, whereas the E-E was designed for exploration and only carried some incidental armaments for defensive purposes.

Whether Starfleet ever built any of its starships as dedicated Borg-killers is debatable, considering how poorly starships in general have fared against Borg vessels. It's almost invariably some unconventional dirty trick pulled off by the crew of a generic starship that stops the Borg. The only known dedicated Borg-killer, the Defiant, was declared a failure before completion, was subsequently utilized for armed recce, and didn't fare too well when finally getting to face a Borg Cube...

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't the fact that Voyager was only outfitted with 32 torpedoes a sign that it wasn't really intended for war. Or was that only because they weren't fully equipped?

Either way I think it makes more sense to assume Voyager is less powerful than the massive E-D. I think that was supposed to be part of the point of Voyager, a smaller weaker vessel trapped all alone in the Delta Quadrant. And hey If the Galaxy is eclipsed by almost everything the Feds built within less than a decade, well that just seems kinda sad.

 

[Jefferies]

Just because we didn't see a bunch of them, doesn't mean there aren't more. It also doesn't seem you're taking into considering each ships functions as to why the Defiant in comparison to the Intrepid class. Voyager is still intended as a ship of peace and exploration first, the Defiant is not. There is more to what the Intrepid class was made for beyond it's armament. Most Starfleet ships are made with defensive combat in mind, even as a secondary function.

You seem to have missed my post a page or two back. I wasn't trying to bash the Intrepid class! Far from it. I was just trying to argue against the notion that she is a warship or if not a warship specifically at least as powerful as one when it comes to armaments.

 

[Jefferies]

Isn't the fact that Voyager was only outfitted with 32 torpedoes a sign that it wasn't really intended for war. Or was that only because they weren't fully equipped?

Either way I think it makes more sense to assume Voyager is less powerful than the massive E-D. I think that was supposed to be part of the point of Voyager, a smaller weaker vessel trapped all alone in the Delta Quadrant. And hey If the Galaxy is eclipsed by almost everything the Feds built within less than a decade, well that just seems kinda sad.

You make an excellent point about the torpedoes. If anything that should settle the debate if Voyager was built for combat or not. However, what gave you the impression that the Galaxy class was eclipsed by anything? I never got the impression that she had become outdated?

 

[Anwar]

The Galaxy received upgrades as time went on so it would still match or surpass the newer ships introduced. That's why the Dminion bug fighters destroyed one in their first battle, but later on we saw a Galaxy easily blowing them away.

 

[Timo]

...Either that, or then the Jem'Hadar had inside info on the Odyssey (say, a Changeling or two), and were able to bypass her shields that way. Other ships would be better prepared against such trickery.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

Also people need to keep in mind that the Intrepid class is by no means a warship. It was built as a science and exploration vessel. Compared to ships like the Defiant class and Sovereign class it has much less and much weaker weapons.

How can we tell? The number of phaser strips on the Voyager is basically the same as on the E-E, while the smaller ship has better overall coverage. The number of phaser strips or other phaser mounts on the Voyager is vastly greater than on the Defiant. Torpedo tube count seems to be something like Voyager 4, Defiant 4, E-E 5 at minimum in the early movies, 10 at maximum in ST:NEM.

We never hear what the Voyager was built for, unless we count Tom Paris' humorous "for combat performance, not musical performance". If we want to divine her intended mission, we have only two examples to go by: the Maquis hunt from "Caretaker", and the courier mission of a sister ship from DS9 "Inter Arma Silet Leges". All the rest of the exploits of this ship class were unintended, imposed on the ship by the Delta quadrant, and would have to have been performed even if she happened to be an Oberth or Juggernaut class vessel.

For all we know, the Voyager was intended to be a combat vessel by design, whereas the E-E was designed for exploration and only carried some incidental armaments for defensive purposes.

Whether Starfleet ever built any of its starships as dedicated Borg-killers is debatable, considering how poorly starships in general have fared against Borg vessels. It's almost invariably some unconventional dirty trick pulled off by the crew of a generic starship that stops the Borg. The only known dedicated Borg-killer, the Defiant, was declared a failure before completion, was subsequently utilized for armed recce, and didn't fare too well when finally getting to face a Borg Cube...

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't the fact that Voyager was only outfitted with 32 torpedoes a sign that it wasn't really intended for war. Or was that only because they weren't fully equipped?

Either way I think it makes more sense to assume Voyager is less powerful than the massive E-D. I think that was supposed to be part of the point of Voyager, a smaller weaker vessel trapped all alone in the Delta Quadrant. And hey If the Galaxy is eclipsed by almost everything the Feds built within less than a decade, well that just seems kinda sad.

I thought the point of Voyager was too show in part to show what this new style of ship can do, not that it was weaker. Voyager was semi-independant deep space scouting vessel as discribed in "Someone To Watch Over Me", "Relitivity" & "Innocense". Seems to me Voyager lived up to the function it was designed for.

 

[Kai Winn]

maybe we can agree that voyager was so formidable because it had the most resourceful crew?

 

[Anwar]

Thing is, if you look at virtually every other "One ship on its' own" show, those ships all tend to be big tough ones.

1) Blakes Seven: Their ship is an Alien Battleship superior to any Terran Federation vessel. Faster, better weapons, etc.

2) Farscape: Moya is a huge Leviathan transport that is extremely fast, it's a living ship so it can heal most damage, it doesn't need a crew, and it has the "Starburst" instant teleport FTL power that allows it to disappear without any way of tracking it.

3) NuBSG: The Galactica is a battlestar/battleship that also has an FTL device that lets it get away without any means of tracking.

VOY might've worked out better if it was a Heavy Cruiser that could make its own torpedoes, shuttles and they found some alien tech that made it invisible to all sensors or something.

 

[exodus]

^^No, I don't think it has anything to do with the ship itself.
It has to do more with the some of the fanbase not being sure with what type of ship Voyager is in comparison to others.

 

[Jefferies]

Considering how Voyager burned through torpedoes and shuttle craft there came a point at which they must have found a way to construct new ones. They would have run out otherwise and we know they never did.