The Borg, a defence
- Thread starter john titor
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But if they DID do that, that would mean that they'd have to keep running into the EXACT same people of those races over and over for each race's run. Still nothing but complaints from the detractors over how they weren't getting a "better view" of the races for their runs.
Let's face it, when it comes to VOY and new aliens the fandom was pretty much ready to rip into them from the conception. DS9 got an easy run from some reason whenever it came to showing off new aliens, and it wasn't just because they could use the same characters over (the benefits of being stationary).
Let's face it, when it comes to VOY and new aliens the fandom was pretty much ready to rip into them from the conception. DS9 got an easy run from some reason whenever it came to showing off new aliens, and it wasn't just because they could use the same characters over (the benefits of being stationary).
It was also because their alien races weren't painted as two-dimensional (Except the Dominion. But they KNEW they were badasses.) Cardassians and Bajorans both ran the gamut between good and evil, nice guy and douchebag, crafty and gullible etc.
Most of Voy's races were one-note all-the same, with a few exceptions (There was that Viidian chick the Doctor was totally into. In fact, I wouldn't have minded seeing the Viidians more often. There's better potential for a race with Cardassian levels of depth).
DS9 got it easy because its writers didn't believe humans were better than everyone else.
Most of Voy's races were one-note all-the same, with a few exceptions (There was that Viidian chick the Doctor was totally into. In fact, I wouldn't have minded seeing the Viidians more often. There's better potential for a race with Cardassian levels of depth).
DS9 got it easy because its writers didn't believe humans were better than everyone else.
With the way the "primitive" Kazon were created, perhaps not. But Hirogen and Vidiians, races that in some ways were more advanced than Voyager? Sure, esp. given that they went out of their way to get Voyager, rather than Voyager just bumping into them by sheer coincidence (humongous difference right there). Sort of like the various Xindi supporting cast in ENT season 3, which had a similar premise of wandering in the depths of unknown space for a single and very clear goal.
With that said, the Kazon had an interesting premise, one that demanded recurring characters such as Cullah and Seska to stand out amongst the tribes. But it all depends on the execution, which was sorely lacking.
I respectfully disagree but perhaps not in the way that you would expect. For one thing, while there were drones in TNG, they all acted as one. I'd argue (at least for the sake of the topic) that at least there, the Borg Collective was treated as a single character. There was none of this Borg Queen or Seven or Seven's Dad, etc. etc. In TNG, when you dealt with the Borg, you didn't deal with the drones, you dealt them all. The one episode that had Hugh, he wasn't a villain, and it turns out that the crew were their own villains rather than the coming Borg Cube (okay, that's stretching it, but you get my point
).
The only reason the Cardassians and Bajorans were more 3-Dimensional is because they were recurring races with more specifically recurring characters. Like I said, if VOY did do that they'd just get complaints that they wouldn't be running into the same races over and over and that it ESPECIALLY made no sense to run into the same people over and over. It's double standard for VOY, tell them to do things to avoid being hated and then when they do them they're still hated for DOING those things in the first place.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
With the writing of that show, I don't think there was much they could have done. It all comes down to the writing, it always has. And when I watch Voyager, I see some good..but then most of the time they seemed to strive for mediocre resolutions...bland. Vanilla. TNG-lite.
Rob
Oh, now I'm getting the hunch that you're just holding a grudge on those who begrudge Voyager
Not quite conducive to the topic, I think.Hell, aside from the ships, just who liked the Breen anyway? They were a recurring race complete with a recurring head villain, but I'm so sure you'll find more fans of the Vidiians than the Breen, even amongst Voyager haters.
The Breen get love for their appearance, they blew up the Defiant and how we never saw their faces, that alone is what made them more popular than any VOY races.
It's not about the writing, it's about what series they are on. That makes the difference.
It's like the 8472, if they had been DS9 or TNG villains they'd get nothing but love. But since they were VOY creations they get blasted for being "1-Dimensional Omnicidal Maniacs" and strange-looking. And they're also blasted for being tough enough to defeat the Borg on their own, because the Borg are a cherished TNG creation and the second VOY decided to make a race that could fight them off the audience vowed to hate them for that. Never mind that if DS9 had created they'd get love for doing the exact same thing.
It's not about the writing, it's about what series they are on. That makes the difference.
It's like the 8472, if they had been DS9 or TNG villains they'd get nothing but love. But since they were VOY creations they get blasted for being "1-Dimensional Omnicidal Maniacs" and strange-looking. And they're also blasted for being tough enough to defeat the Borg on their own, because the Borg are a cherished TNG creation and the second VOY decided to make a race that could fight them off the audience vowed to hate them for that. Never mind that if DS9 had created they'd get love for doing the exact same thing.
Really? It's been a while since I watched the war arc of DS9 (one of my favoured Treks), but I never found the Breen to be that...interesting. The Viidians made for more characterful villains than them. At best, to me at least, the Breen seemed to function more as a plot device for the Cardassians to be sidelined by the Dominion as the war wore on.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
The Breen are the only alien race in 24th season to actually ATTACK Earth, and score some hits...the Borg couldn't do this, and they tried twice. The Breen took out the fricking Golden Gate Bridge (but unfortunately they missed Nancy Pelosi's house!)
Rob
So, them attacking Earth and scoring one or two hits before getting their entire force annihilated is all you need to be a popular race?
By that logic, the Xindi should be uber-popular for carving a scar into the Planet and killing 7 million people.
And yet they are as despised as the Kazon.
Like I said, it all comes down to what series you were in and not how good the writing was.
By that logic, the Xindi should be uber-popular for carving a scar into the Planet and killing 7 million people.
And yet they are as despised as the Kazon.
Like I said, it all comes down to what series you were in and not how good the writing was.
I suppose we need to see a poll to determine whether or not we prefer the Breen over any Voyager races. I'm just not seeing any sort of evidence of that. Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen people complain that the Breen were a cheap add-on to the Dominion War arc. On the other hand, the only times I've seen Species 8472 getting trashed was because of that Boothesby episode. I've recalled nothing but praise for Scorpion. And I refuse to believe that the Breen are more favorably received than the Krenim, too.
But anyway, I'm pretty tired of all the stubborn cynicism of series vs. series, and I'm a firm believer that yes, in the end, writing will trump which show what alien race was on. But if the only defense over and over again is, "But people will hate it b/c it was on Voyager!," despite going down a case-by-case basis, then there's no real sense of reasoning anymore.
As for the Xindi-Breen-Kazon comparison, I was surprised at the sheer amount of fans who signaled the Xindi as Enterprise finally hitting its stride of quality writing. It all started with the attack. So no, I'm not seeing the whole "Xindi despised as badly as the Kazon" analogy. I think someone here is only seeing what he wants to see for the sake of arguing instead of enjoyment.
But anyway, I'm pretty tired of all the stubborn cynicism of series vs. series, and I'm a firm believer that yes, in the end, writing will trump which show what alien race was on. But if the only defense over and over again is, "But people will hate it b/c it was on Voyager!," despite going down a case-by-case basis, then there's no real sense of reasoning anymore.
As for the Xindi-Breen-Kazon comparison, I was surprised at the sheer amount of fans who signaled the Xindi as Enterprise finally hitting its stride of quality writing. It all started with the attack. So no, I'm not seeing the whole "Xindi despised as badly as the Kazon" analogy. I think someone here is only seeing what he wants to see for the sake of arguing instead of enjoyment.
They blasted the Xindi for being a new race, for not all looking the same, and for how it was silly that the least human-looking ones were the nicer ones. Again, if they had been a TNG or DS9 race we wouldn't have any complaints.
Same with 8472, the haters complained over how VOY dared to create a race that could fight the Borg and how they alone "ruined" the Borg irrevocably in "Scorpion". The Boothby episode really didn't do that much damage since they weren't well-liked to begin with.
The Krenim, they complain they didn't look cool enough and how it was dumb for a race to think of using temporal weapons.
Face it, the haters of the series will always find a way to accentuate the negative and block out anything positive even when it's right in their faces.
It all comes down to what series they were on, and not the writing. Saying "It's all in the writing" is the simple excuse, whereas the truth is that when it comes to VOY every idea was ready to be ripped into before they hit the screen and with DS9 and TNG everything was ready to be fully accepted.
I bet that if VOY had done the Dominion arc wherein they formed a Delta Federation and fought the Dominion for most of their series, it would just be nothing but negative criticisms. And no matter how well-done the Dominion would be it would be mocked since it's a "B&B" creation and not made by someone else.
Same with 8472, the haters complained over how VOY dared to create a race that could fight the Borg and how they alone "ruined" the Borg irrevocably in "Scorpion". The Boothby episode really didn't do that much damage since they weren't well-liked to begin with.
The Krenim, they complain they didn't look cool enough and how it was dumb for a race to think of using temporal weapons.
Face it, the haters of the series will always find a way to accentuate the negative and block out anything positive even when it's right in their faces.
It all comes down to what series they were on, and not the writing. Saying "It's all in the writing" is the simple excuse, whereas the truth is that when it comes to VOY every idea was ready to be ripped into before they hit the screen and with DS9 and TNG everything was ready to be fully accepted.
I bet that if VOY had done the Dominion arc wherein they formed a Delta Federation and fought the Dominion for most of their series, it would just be nothing but negative criticisms. And no matter how well-done the Dominion would be it would be mocked since it's a "B&B" creation and not made by someone else.
I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one, Anwar, I respect your opinions greatly, but I just don't think that this is a case of DS9 getting a pass and VGR getting overly-criticized. I agree that there are indeed some fans who have blind faith or blind hate of a given show, but I think the overall reaction is not a result of this.
I won't try to change your mind, but I just don't see it the way you do on this one.
I won't try to change your mind, but I just don't see it the way you do on this one.
I think you're citing the opinions of a select few people. Generally speaking, a lot of people really like "Scorpion." That two-parter did absolutely nothing to ruin the Borg.
The Xindi...I dunno. I didn't watch a lot of ENT, but from what I've read, a lot of people really enjoyed that arc as well.
And I've never heard anybody complain about the Krenim in the way you suggest. I've heard people complain about the reset button ending of "Year of Hell." What does that have to do with? The writing!
I really think you are taking a handful of negative opinions and blowing them way out of proportion.
(Emphasis mine)
The 'new race' complaint is something connected specifically with Enterprise being a prequel series; all these new species appearing for Enterprise, and never being seen later on is what troubles fans, rather than it just being a 'new' race.
The idea of people complaining about new species in the Delta Quadrant sounds a bit...moronic, to say the least. Would such people reasonably expect Voyager over the course of the series to encounter entire groups of AQ/BQ or even GQ races on a regular basis?
Imagine it, a meeting of a batch of ship captains in the Delta Quadrant.
Janeway: Ok, we ended up being transported 70,000 light years by an alien entity, how did the rest of you get here?
Romulan Captain: We were testing a new stardrive powered by writersblockium.
Klingon Captain: We were caught in an explosion inside a nebula made of plotholicons.
Vorta Supervisor: We were trying to realign with a rebooteron beam.
Borg Queen: I don't know why you're all looking at me, this is my turf!
TOS has several races that were never seen again post-TOS (even in the movies), so what's wrong with ENT doing the same?
As for the DQ races, again the fandom was complaining about that back in 1995 (I was there so this is a valid post). They were complaining that VOY wasn't going to feature any of the older races from TOS and TNG, and so they went out of their way to reject the new ones VOY made. Yes, we can talk about how interesting the Vidiians were TODAY but back then no one cared for them.
As for the DQ races, again the fandom was complaining about that back in 1995 (I was there so this is a valid post). They were complaining that VOY wasn't going to feature any of the older races from TOS and TNG, and so they went out of their way to reject the new ones VOY made. Yes, we can talk about how interesting the Vidiians were TODAY but back then no one cared for them.
I was just pointing out why people may complain about the Xindi, whether I agree with them fully or not is another issue. Though, anything could happen to those species that are never seen again in the intervening centuries.
Fair enough, I don't think I was old enough back (14 years ago...that's a scary thought
) then to have been watchign VOY, or if I was watching it, I didn't care that the old races weren't going to appear to that extent. If it was that long ago, I have a feeling the sentiments would have at least changed a smidgeon by now though.Thoguh I only joined up with the fandom recently. I'm under the impression that DS9 back then got a lot of flak for the differences between itself and TNG/VOY to begin with, and that DS9 only recieved greater appreciation in the past decade or so, some time after the series finished. I may be wrong though.
