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The Bajorans and Warp Drive

Depends. It can be argued that because of the Cardassian occupation the Bajorans are aware of the universe around them, and there's no risk of cultural contamination. There was a similar situation in the novels, the Romulans conquered a pre-warp planet, and when they pulled out the Federation offered support on the ground that they can't contaminate their culture any worse than Romulan occupation already has.

I think the real idea behind the PD is to avoid being a destructive influence on a species that is not yet "ready" for dealing with the interstellar community and isn't aware of its existence. As a rule of thumb the line is drawn at the development of warp drive, but there are pre-warp races that have been contacted by the Federation without qualms. The Edo, who seem very far from even primitive space travel, would be an example.

On the other hand, the PD can even forbid sharing of technology after development of warp drive, an example of which is found in First Contact (the episode), in which Picard tells chancellor Durken in so many words that 'not sharing their exceptional technology is part of the meaning of the PD'.

Apparently the issue is much more complicated than "No warp? No contact. Warp=free exchange!".

That being said, I'm not convinced the Bajorans were pre-warp after the occupation (even though their planet was ruined).
 
Warp drive may just never have been a priority for Bajor.

If they where happy in there own system and no desire to form a empire or create some sort of federation then why bother?
As a species they may of been contenpt to live on their planet in peace advancing in other areas.

It's a fallacy in my opinion to measure advanced civilisations by warp capability.

A species could be advanced in other ways.

Before the occupation I would say the bajoran, though lacking in propulsion, may have been far more advanced in other areas like culture and spirituality.

The fact bajoran seemed to be a peaceful, harmonious people likely made them lack in weapons and defence technology's aswell.
 
The Cardassians were interstellar travelers by the mid 22nd century, therefore, presumably they had warp drive back then. (ENT: Observer effect, where the Organians comment on the Cardassians' reaction to the virus they found on the planet).

According to Gul Dukat's reckoning 230 years after that (who would probably view these things from the perspective of Cardassian history): "Militarily, technologically, culturally, we were almost a century ahead of them in every way." (DS9: Waltz), which would therefore still firmly place them within the warp age. So even by Dukat's contemptuous admission (which probably didn't give the Bajoran the credit they were due), even if they actually didn't invent warp drive, they certainly could have done so judging by their general technological level.
 
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That's a good one - I've never heard that argued before. "Waltz" is a good datapoint, say what you may about Dukat's mental health at the time.

Of course, Dukat could be doing the human thing and actually exaggerating the capabilities of an enemy he did not manage to defeat. And in any case, Bajoran resistance would be buying from abroad, so even if the Bajorans started from a flat zero, they might suddenly leap to "almost a century behind", getting their hands on equipment their neighbors (synched up in a rat race to a sort of "galactic norm" or at the very least parity with the locally important Cardassia) considered suitably outdated.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's certainly possible the Bajorans had the ability to build warp drive. It's even possible that their ships had warp nacelles and warp reactors. What they may be lacking is antimatter fuel and dilithium

Antimatter fuel requires highly advanced economy with advanced manufacturing technologies, and can likely only be done safely in space. These are very likely abilities that would have fallen out of reach for the Bajorans under Cardassian occupation.

As for dilithium, most civilisations mine it. The Federation now seems to be able to produce it artificially but this is a relatively recent development. Since the Cardassians strip mined Bajor's resources, any dilithium in the Bajoran system would have been high on the list of what to loot.

So as well as destroying any Bajoran starships that posed any threat to them, anything left with warp capability simply couldn't get fuelled, couldn't receive replacement parts, and thus fell in to disrepair. Might help explain the nacelle-like engines we see on a few of their designs - they are reminders of a bygone era.

After the Cardassians left, the Bajorans began to rebuild their economy. It takes a long time to rebuild all the things you need to start producing antimatter, and acquiring dilithium would likely be through trade, and it was some time before Bajor had anything significant of value to offer to the wider Galaxy. They weren't in a position to charge heavy tariffs to every ship passing though the wormhole, but they could start collecting some dues here and there. So, they begin to resurrect their ships and gain the ability to field some warp-capable missions here and there, including runs to/from New Bajor (although the majority of logistical needs are provided by typical hired alien freighter captains), but it's a lower priority than feeding and clothing their population, after all defence is being handed for them by their Federation benefactors.

There have seen Bajorans in Starfleet who have graduated Starfleet academy including Ro Laren and Sito Jaxa. Learning warp theory and engineering practices is a key part of graduating Startfleet Academy. Would Starfleet prevent them from going home and using what they've learned? Questionable ethics there I think. So there are Bajorans with the knowledge. Much more likely their smashed economy didn't allow them to do anything useful, at least not for a decade or so after the occupation.
 
I've seen the majority of DS9 episodes, but far from all of them. So I was wondering, did they ever address the subject of Bajoran warp drive or show its effects? I really don't know.
 
Antimatter fuel requires highly advanced economy with advanced manufacturing technologies, and can likely only be done safely in space. These are very likely abilities that would have fallen out of reach for the Bajorans under Cardassian occupation.

I guess a lot would depend on whether antimatter power would be limited to warp spacecraft or common in wristwatches. In the Federation, the latter appears more likely... A newcomer to warp business might have its infrastructure built differently. But would Bajorans be newcomers or veterans?

Gasoline was scarce in countries occupied during WWII, but cars still kept running; scarcity was also to be found in the countries doing the occupying, and while there were steps taken to alleviate the dependence on gasoline, these were partial at best. Electricity never went out of fashion, either, in those places that had adopted it before the war. If antimatter was a big part of the Bajoran life before the occupation, it might remain that during it, too - even if there were brown-outs ("Necessary Evil" indicates there weren't any during the occupation, only after it).

Hard to tell one way or another. Antimatter isn't an energy source, it's another artificial means of energy storage, so DS9 itself relying on fusion doesn't tell us much, apart from the Cardassians having built it to be close to self-sufficient rather than dependent on fuel expensively produced elsewhere. Somehow DS9 produces or acquires enough antimatter to support runabout and photon torpedo operations, though; similar assemblies planetside might be available to the Bajorans.

Since the Cardassians strip mined Bajor's resources, any dilithium in the Bajoran system would have been high on the list of what to loot.

Which makes it curious that we never hear of dilithium being mined there. Or of Cardassians making use of dilithium, for that matter. But the subject matter is one of omissions in general - we know very little about the power infrastructure or mining arrangements of the Federation, too.

Might be dilithium is common. Might be dilithium is common in the star systems of warp-capable cultures, being the decisive factor in which cultures get warp. Might be dilithium is extra rare, but many civilizations achieve warp without it. We don't know if Sol has any, say, yet Cochrane flew.

After the Cardassians left, the Bajorans began to rebuild their economy.

I'm not sure this would be a good description of what would happen. Resources strip-mined would remain strip-mined: they could never be rebuilt. OTOH, Bajoran economy might actually be in pretty good order at the end of the occupation, as Cardassia would have wanted it stable through their occupation, and the occupation wasn't intended to end quite yet when they suddenly were forced to withdraw. The sudden withdrawal in turn wouldn't result in much additional destruction - witness the half-hearted job the Cardassians did at Terok Nor, scuttling next to nothing because they expected to be back in a week anyway.

If anything, Bajor would find it richer immediately after the occupation than during it, what with leftover Cardassian equipment now free for nationalization. We do see all the Bajoran warpship types also in Cardassian hands at one time or another - so which side stole from which?

It takes a long time to rebuild all the things you need to start producing antimatter

...Which in turn might mean the Cardassians didn't destroy those things, as they expected to return. But if the planet indeed suffers from brown-outs, as in "Necessary Evil", then there might well be problems with creating antimatter, too!

and acquiring dilithium would likely be through trade, and it was some time before Bajor had anything significant of value to offer to the wider Galaxy.

Yet there were ships coming and going in earliest DS9 already. Again one could argue that a planet being mined for valuables would be in a good position to keep on mining valuables when and especially when the overlords of the mines suddenly left...

They weren't in a position to charge heavy tariffs to every ship passing though the wormhole, but they could start collecting some dues here and there. So, they begin to resurrect their ships and gain the ability to field some warp-capable missions here and there, including runs to/from New Bajor (although the majority of logistical needs are provided by typical hired alien freighter captains), but it's a lower priority than feeding and clothing their population, after all defence is being handed for them by their Federation benefactors.

Is it, though? There are no Federation ships available to defend Bajor at any point of the early seasons. Sisko never makes Doctor-like boasts of stopping everybody who dares to threaten the place. OTOH, there's quite a bit of native Bajoran warship activity at the start of the second season, including warpship activity (or at least the three ships that invade DS9 are of the same type as the one that warped into the system at the start of "Past Prologue"). Perhaps Bajor went all North Korea and invested heavily in defense first and foremost, the power being in the hands of freshly minted resistance fighters and all? (And not the sort of fighters who'd care about feeding the people, like Shakaar, mind you.)

There have seen Bajorans in Starfleet who have graduated Starfleet academy including Ro Laren and Sito Jaxa. Learning warp theory and engineering practices is a key part of graduating Startfleet Academy. Would Starfleet prevent them from going home and using what they've learned? Questionable ethics there I think. So there are Bajorans with the knowledge. Much more likely their smashed economy didn't allow them to do anything useful, at least not for a decade or so after the occupation.

Why assume "nothing useful"? We see constant warp activity around Bajor immediately after the occupation, often involving ship types that are closely associated with Bajor (the one from "Ensign Ro" is previously established and then makes a welcome reappearance in "A Man Alone", the one from "Past Prologue" is established right off the bat, and then "Move Along Home" gives us the final decidedly Bajoran interstellar type, even if it isn't decidedly Bajoran in that episode yet). Bajor isn't lacking in warp ability during the run of DS9 the show. Our unanswered questions only involve the time before that show - whether there was Bajoran warp during the occupation (but "Ensign Ro" showed that Orta's terrorist posse had it, until they lost it and the Cardassians framing them failed to realize they had lost it), whether there was Bajoran warp before it, and how early before it, and how Bajoran exactly...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Bajor has a number of colonies outside the system, unless they utilised generational ships or stasis then they would likely have had warp technology. Their culture is ancient, so they would've made technological advances centuries before Earth, though it could be that they never felt the need to venture very far--whether due to bad experiences early in their interstellar travels, not finding anything of significant interest in their neighbourhood, or maybe due to some undefined political, religious or social reason--looking at how strict the D'jarra system was before the Occupation, it could be that space travel was seen as something unseemly and they should instead focus on their spirituality instead.

Without more information there's no way to really tell.
 
Bajor has a number of colonies outside the system, unless they utilised generational ships or stasis then they would likely have had warp technology. Their culture is ancient, so they would've made technological advances centuries before Earth, though it could be that they never felt the need to venture very far--whether due to bad experiences early in their interstellar travels, not finding anything of significant interest in their neighbourhood, or maybe due to some undefined political, religious or social reason--looking at how strict the D'jarra system was before the Occupation, it could be that space travel was seen as something unseemly and they should instead focus on their spirituality instead.

Without more information there's no way to really tell.
I think Timo is right, Bajor had civilization millenia before earth - our first cohesive cultures only date back around 15,000 years. We have scattered glimpses from archeological sites showing some native cultures as highly advanced for agrarian society's, with remains of intricate architecture and expansive irrigation techniques thought to be beyond their capabilities.
Without the three World Wars or a Medieval period, Bajor may very well have had an extended Iron, Industrial and Digital ages before starting to really explore space. Or, they may have had very destructive wars with Cardassia over and over again setting both races back again and again.
 
This all touches upon the bigger Trek issue of why all cultures are so neatly in sync.

Our heroes may encounter medieval worlds, or caveman worlds, or worlds reminiscent of Earth's already rather globalized 1870s or 1960s. But whenever they run into spaceflight cultures, those have ships that can neatly catch or barely outrun our heroes, drop their shields to 86%, or withstand seven phaser hits, and usually also have transporters - and the Federation thus can have nice wars with them, rather than utterly lopsided ones. This despite the heroes themselves first having Archer-level warpships, then Kirk-level, then Picard-level; somehow, the others keep pace but never spurt ahead.

Does spaceflight synchronize itself? Is contact via warp a do-or-die situation where only those quickly matching their opponents survive at all? And OTOH, does starflight provide the means of catching up, through trade with the ubiquitous enemies of one's enemies?

If so, Bajor and Cardassia clobbering each other back to stone age every now and then and subsequently quickly rebounding to no higher than the local standard would appear natural enough. If wars of this sort are mutually destructive, then both getting back to starflight at roughly the same time also makes sense. And warp-level cultures might have the power to rewrite not just their own history, but also that of their enemy...

But why does the rat race go so evenly even for cultures greatly separated from each other? Is it because aggressors readily maraud the wider neighborhood, forcing parity or then extinction on all even across some distance? Because ruthless traders like the Ferengi do? Both? If so, is the fact that so many currently are in sync with the UFP the broader truth, the result of a recent cycle of syncing up (say, some well-known but little-discussed recentish galactic war, perhaps back when Bajorans first invented the wheel)?

Bajor would then be entitled to not having warp in quite the same century as Cardassia or Earth, without yet being out of sync: the rat race would work on the timescale of a few thousands of years, bumping up newcomers but somehow also bumping down those who try to get ahead.

And the UFP seemingly first being behind (Archer) and then ahead (Picard) is just irrelevant fluctuation around or within the current galactic standard where there is always a Vulcan culture to hold at bay a Klingon culture long enough for an Earth culture to grow up... Or a Federation culture to prevent a Bajoran culture from getting annihilated by a Cardassian culture even when the Bajorans temporarily lack warp. Or, as it may rather be, a UFP to tempt a Cardassia into going after assorted weakling Bajors to gain strength until it can directly confront the UFPs of the galaxy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
@Timo there is no plausible in-universe reason given for cutlures to match each other so easily.
The Dominion has been shown to have considerable technological advantages that Starfleet can't easily match - long range transporters that can easily penetrate federation (and kling, et al) shields.
Far better shields, better weapons systems.
The Breen have a particularly powerful energy weapon.

We never see Jem Ha'dar ships with cloaking devices; neither do the cardassians.

There are other examples of tech disparity between races; but one can assume there will always be leaks and espionage so disadvantaged races can catch up.
 
It's allegorical for the way the big powers on Earth are at similar levels of technological advancement.

Kor
 
It's allegorical for the way the big powers on Earth are at similar levels of technological advancement.

Kor
That's definitely the explanation, but it's still kind of dumb that 1 species - whether it's the Romulans or the Klingons or whoever - can always match a federation that comprises of dozens and dozens of species. No advantage whatsoever for the mighty Federation.
 
That's definitely the explanation, but it's still kind of dumb that 1 species - whether it's the Romulans or the Klingons or whoever - can always match a federation that comprises of dozens and dozens of species. No advantage whatsoever for the mighty Federation.
Romulan EMPIRE. Klingon EMPIRE.
We only *see* one race, because of budget. But the implication, although never really fleshed out, is that Romulus and Q'onos, and explicitly mentioned by Cardassia, is that all of them control a number of worlds. Nemesis even gives us the Romulan slave species in the Remans, but there could - and probably are - a number of individual colony worlds, less developed races that are either allied with or are members of the larger Empires.
 
The Prime directive doesn't deal with collapse. There is a conceit that drives the series that progress is more or less linear and positive. For instance, there is no notion that the prime directive should apply to the Talosians.
 
Romulan EMPIRE. Klingon EMPIRE.
:guffaw: They talk big, just like many of the small nation-states from over the past century that pick big names for themselves. The Romulans called it the Galactic Star Empire, but there was nothing galactic about it, and presumably all the planets they conquered had inferior capabilities - hence why they were conquered. So "no" to your point. There were plenty of other civilizations that weren't "empires" that were still on-par with the Federation in virtually every way, too.
 
:guffaw: They talk big, just like many of the small nation-states from over the past century that pick big names for themselves. The Romulans called it the Galactic Star Empire, but there was nothing galactic about it, and presumably all the planets they conquered had inferior capabilities - hence why they were conquered. So "no" to your point. There were plenty of other civilizations that weren't "empires" that were still on-par with the Federation in virtually every way, too.
Actually just "Romulan Star Empire."

Kor
 
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