• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The age of the antihero

More to the point: even scuttling is not, strictly speaking, a permanent condition. The entire German fleet scuttled off Scapa Flow was later raised and salvaged. Half the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor was raised, rebuilt, and sent back into service. A number of U.S. Navy submarines were likewise recovered from the sea floor after their crews abandoned them, some of which returned to service or were later used as target vessels in weapons tests. And of course there's the famous case of K-129, which sank in deep water after being literally blown up by one of its own torpedoes, being salvaged in secret by the CIA.

All in all, it's not even assured that destroying the Shenzhou would have actually damaged the dilithium processor. Scuttling charges would probably wreck the ship's major load-bearing structures and render the ship unsafe to use even if you could replace its entire drive system. A voluntary warp core breach, on the other hand, implies the presence of a working warp core, which Shenzhou does not, at this time, possess.
 
Its not a plot hole. They had a reason to bring the telescope. They did NOT have a reason to bring the dilithium processor. The telescope had value to them, the processor did not.

It only BECOMES a plot hole in the case that Starfleet knew the dilithium processor was valuable to the Klingons in particular and they neglected to destroy it. But Starfleet didn't know that, nor could they have known that, since the only REASON it became valuable -- six months later -- is because the Klingons' situation was highly unusual.
Exactly. There was no reason to assume the Klingons would do that-none, whatsoever.
 
An actual argument there would be helpful.
I'll save you the trouble. Starfleet should have practiced a "scorched Earth" policy on any possible equipment the Klingons could use, and demonstrate foreknowledge of events that would result from them not destroying their ship.
 
You insisted on some "fix" which turns out to be otherwise, and now you're just trolling! Adding you to my ignore list.
A post that was meant as a joke "fixed it for you." that was torn apart to its bones is now trolling? :shrug:
Am I understanding that right?
 
Considering "the enemy" never wants to use Starfleet devices that aren't attached to the actual starship, WHY would they want to do this?

Because that's what happened!

The goal of scuttling is to keep a hostile force from taking control of the SHIP, something that happens often enough that the self-destruct mechanism legitimately makes sense. But stealing random components of those ships for use in salvage operations? That's an act of desperation by someone who has no other options to survive. Indeed, the people most likely to find themselves in that situation are not the enemy themselves, but the surviving crew of the disabled vessel. Automatically demolishing any salvageable components whenever the ship is abandoned is more likely to screw the survivors than the enemy.

Not just taking control of a ship, and not just scuttling. And those aren't random components.

Likely screw the survivors? The show depicts ships with auto-destruct and even remote disabling features!

You don't "ignore" situations you don't know anything about, dude. Six months from now, the Global Communist Conspiracy might break into my old house and steal my water heater as part of their plan to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. And yet I neglected to burn my house down when I moved out last month, instead taking a considerable amount of time to pack up all of my personal belongings.

I mean, if I had time to pack up and move my TV and my Xbox, I certainly had enough time to burn the house down, right?

No, you don't burn your house down. You tell the house computer to disable or booby trap the place. LOL.

Its not a plot hole. They had a reason to bring the telescope. They did NOT have a reason to bring the dilithium processor. The telescope had value to them, the processor did not.

How do you know that they brought the telescope? For all we know, it could have been retrieved by scavengers or a recovery team, sent to the dead Captain's representatives, and then included with her will and instructions to send both to the mutineer which the crew also adore. LOL.

It only BECOMES a plot hole in the case that Starfleet knew the dilithium processor was valuable to the Klingons in particular and they neglected to destroy it. But Starfleet didn't know that, nor could they have known that, since the only REASON it became valuable -- six months later -- is because the Klingons' situation was highly unusual.

As explained earlier, if a ship can be rigged for auto-destruct, then it should be easy to rig it for auto-disable or booby trapped. Starfleet can retrieve any components later if they wish.

The fact that, as you put it, Starfleet "neglected to destroy" what was eventually used given circumstances that are presumably "highly unusual" (as if it's abnormal for ships with crews to be left drifting in space for months), in exchange for retrieving something of no strategic value, only reinforces the point that it's a plot hole, which includes characters lacking common sense.
 
In the grand scheme, the telescope/scuttling issue in DSC isn't any worse than, say, Scotty bringing Peter Preston to the bridge in TWOK instead of taking him directly to sickbay. Both can be rationalized in-universe, but both emphasize dramatic sentimentality over expectations of how things should be done based on real-world standard practices. Even so, TWOK didn't suffer because of that Preston scene, and the telescope is pretty far down on the list of the issues that DSC has.
 
In the grand scheme, the telescope/scuttling issue in DSC isn't any worse than, say, Scotty bringing Peter Preston to the bridge in TWOK instead of taking him directly to sickbay. Both can be rationalized in-universe, but both emphasize dramatic sentimentality over expectations of how things should be done based on real-world standard practices. Even so, TWOK didn't suffer because of that Preston scene, and the telescope is pretty far down on the list of the issues that DSC has.
You DON'T understand!!! The telescope is the fundamental part of STD and if it doesn't hold up, then what about the rest of the show? What then? Dogs and cats living together, that's what! /s

Seriously, I think it has been clearly established that the telescope is only a plot hole when it is wished to be so. It feels like that argument is so desperate in the repeated assertion that I honestly feel that critics want it to be a plot hole to point at and say, "See! I told you."
 
Scotty taking his nephew to the bridge is AWKWARD. What's the rationalization?

-

Destroying the ship would be dumb anyway. They should just tow it back to base. The warp core was still running. You can't just leave the lights on like that!
 
Scotty taking his nephew to the bridge is AWKWARD. What's the rationalization?
That Preston had gotten more than a lethal dose of radiation that Scotty knew, as well as anyone, McCoy couldn't fix. That Preston had requested to see the Admiral before he kicked it. It's not hard to keep going.
 
You can fanwank that in different ways. IIRC the novelization said that the turbolift system was so shot up that Scotty couldn't get to sickbay, so he went to the bridge instead.

If you work hard enough you can make anything work well enough for Trek.
 
The warp core was still running. You can't just leave the lights on like that!
Except, it wasn't...
You can fanwank that in different ways. IIRC the novelization said that the turbolift system was so shot up that Scotty couldn't get to sickbay, so he went to the bridge instead.

If you work hard enough you can make anything work well enough for Trek.
This is the part that frustrates me. Every other series will get a pass for similar problems, but DISCO must make sense at every level otherwise "plot holes!" and "antiheroes" are ruining Trek.

Maybe I'm too emotional about this but it genuinely feels like there is a need for this to be a plot hole.
 
Because that's what happened
Which they didn't know at the time. And "At the time" is what I'm asking you. What reason did they have AT THE TIME THEY ABANDONED SHIP to remove the dilithium processor? Based on what they knew at the time or could have reasonably been expected to guess?

Not just taking control of a ship, and not just scuttling.
"Prevent them from taking control of the ship" is the purpose of scuttling. Discovery, being disabled, is in no danger of falling under enemy control. Salvage -- even military salvage -- is common enough that trying to prevent it is something you would only do if the leftover parts have intelligence value. Shenzhou is too old for this to be the case.

Likely screw the survivors? The show depicts ships with auto-destruct and even remote disabling features!
None of which have EVER been used to further immobilize a ship that was already disabled or wrecked. A dozen examples have already been shown to you of this being the case. Why do you continue to ignore them?

No, you don't burn your house down. You tell the house computer to disable or booby trap the place.
I didn't do that either. Is there any reason why I should have?

How do you know that they brought the telescope?
Because they're the only ones we know of who were actually present on the ship at any time between the Battle and Burnham's receipt of the telescope. Until we have evidence that someone else visited the wreck off screen, it's logical to assume the crew packed it themselves when they evacuated. And again, it was pointed out that they were in no particular hurry to do this, with the battle being over and the only reason to abandon the ship was its apparently irreparable loss of motive power.

As explained earlier, if a ship can be rigged for auto-destruct, then it should be easy to rig it for auto-disable or booby trapped. Starfleet can retrieve any components later if they wish.
As explained earlier, if my old house could be burned down, it should be easy to burn down or booby trap it so the global communist conspiracy can't use it.

So is there any particular reason to burn down my old house?

[The fact that, as you put it, Starfleet "neglected to destroy" what was eventually used given circumstances that are presumably "highly unusual" (as if it's abnormal for ships with crews to be left drifting in space for months), in exchange for retrieving something of no strategic value, only reinforces the point that it's a plot hole
It's not a plot hole. The crew of the Shenzhou didn't know scuttling the Shenzhou would be necessary. Characters acting on imperfect knowledge is a plot element, not a hole.

Romeo poisoning himself because he doesn't know Juliet is still alive is not a plot hole. Oedipus murdering his father and banging his own mother is not a plot hole. Picard taking a box of personal belongings from the Stargazer that happens to contain Bok's mind control device is not a plot hole. Gul Dukat beaming onto Deep Space Nine to and giving the computer his access code -- only to discover his code doesn't work and now he's as trapped here as they are -- is not a plot hole.

If Saru had known that the one-in-a-million scenario of a stranded Klingon warship needing their dilithium processor was going to happen six months later, he would have simply sabotaged the processor so the Klingons couldn't use it. But if he had known that, he also would have known that the boarding action on the Ship of the Dead would prove crucial to overcoming the cloaking device in the first place, in which case he probably would have painted a giant "get your dilithium processor here!" sign on the hull.

characters lacking common sense.
Common sense tells you that the Klingons have no reason to salvage a dead hulk for parts they can just as easily get from their own supply stores. Voq's situation only occurs because it is extraordinarily uncommon.
 
In all of this has anyone speculated on what a dilithium processor is supposed to do?
 
In all of this has anyone speculated on what a dilithium processor is supposed to do?
It's just the doodad that holds the dilithium crystal in place. It's basically the same thing they installed Elaan's necklace into when the Enterprise's usual crystal got sabotaged in "Elaan of Troyus." Probably, it's the same component that Kirk had to drop kick into place in STID, and is VERY probably the same component Spock had to fiddle with in "Wrath of Khan" just before he died.
 
Except, it wasn't...

This is the part that frustrates me. Every other series will get a pass for similar problems, but DISCO must make sense at every level otherwise "plot holes!" and "antiheroes" are ruining Trek.

Maybe I'm too emotional about this but it genuinely feels like there is a need for this to be a plot hole.
Yes, it was. I've rewatched the first 5 episodes so far. I was pleasantly surprised to see the traditional warp core column in the Shenzou, which I hadn't noticed the first time.

When they "uncouple" the processor, the whole thing powers down. And...

..it was a joke.
 
In all of this has anyone speculated on what a dilithium processor is supposed to do?
According to our friend Memory Alpha it is an important component to warp propulsion systems. An important component Voq needed and found on the Shenzhou. Starfleet were well aware of the importance of dilithium as Lorca said in protecting one of the mines - "Every starship, Klingon or Federation, runs on dilithium crystals. If we can't protect Corvan, the war is lost." It makes no sense that given its importance the idiots on the Shenzhou left theirs for the picking.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top