The age of the antihero

[AlanC9]

Apparently, "secrets" aren't the only things useful to an enemy, as it became evident from the Shenzhou's dilithium processing unit.
prevent the ship from falling into enemy hands. There is nothing misleading about that.

This is setting a pretty low bar for "useful," of course. The only reason the dilithium processing unit has any value at all is because of a near-total command and logistics breakdown on the Klingon side. And even in that nearly best-case scenario, the value of the processing unit turned out to be marginal.

But even if we do whip up a best-case scenario where blowing up the Shenzhou turns out to have been important, that doesn't get us all the way to "Starfleet should have an always-blow-up-the-ship policy." And we'd still need to go from "should have" to "did have" before we can start talking about plot holes, and that leap is impossible given all the counterexamples above.

 

[ralfy]

Nope, I meant what I wrote. Humans are irrational beings and just as capable of being a Khan as a Kirk. We would love to believe that we are the heroes of our stories but we are capable of great evil and irrational behavior.

But the topic thread is about antiheroes. In addition, sci-fi can also have characters who are not human. In some cases, characters can even be depicted as robots or computers.

In which case, the opposite of an antihero is a villain or antagonist.

 

[ralfy]

"Prevent the enemy from salvaging usable parts" has never been a priority for Starfleet.

Note the bolded part here: there are MANY reasons why Starfleet might destroy a starship to keep the enemy from getting it. "They might salvage some part of it" is not one of those reasons and never has been.


It is illogical to perform an action simply because you cannot think of a reason NOT to. If such action serves no constructive purpose, you are better off refraining from taking it.


Obviously there were, as you yourself keep pointing out (e.g. the dilithium processor and whatever else might have been aboard that Starfleet could have used for parts).

But Starfleet isn't going to destroy the ship just to keep the KLINGONS from salvaging it, not when they still have a chance to recover it themselves. IF Shenzhou had still been warp capable and IF there was actual reason to believe that the Klingons were likely to board the ship and fly away with it, THEN they would have destroyed it to keep that from happening, or at least sabotaged the engines so the ship could no longer move.

But blowing up the ship just to keep desperate starving Klingons from scavenging spare parts? That's not their MO. Hell, Starfleet has been known to DELIBERATELY aid its enemies when they fall that far off the wagon. Those are the high-minded principals Kirk was talking about in "Corbomite Maneuver", it's the thing that compells the Enterprise to render aid to a Romulan warbird in "Timescape" and it is PRECISELY the reason why James "Let them die!" Kirk surrenders to Kronos-1 and then beams aboard to render aid instead of just opening fire on an obviously battered cruiser to protect himself and his crew.


"Valuable" here is relative, though. Shenzhou's processor is valuable to Voq because he's desperate and starving. It's worthless to Kol, however, who never gives it a second look and actually doesn't care about it at all except that it gives him an opportunity to finally buy off Voq's crew with a giant bucket of KFC.

The chicken ended up being ALOT more valuable to Voq's crew than the dilithium processor.

Lest we get into another round of war stories, there's this great annecdote from Paul Tibbets about getting fished out of the sea by some islanders who were trying to figure out whether to sell him to the Japanese or the American forces in Guadalcanal. The Americans apparently made them the better offer, leading Tibbets to remark "Apparently my government believes my life is worth exactly one ten-pound sack of rice."

You are saying that Starfleet would leave such devices functional because anyone else could be able to use it. And yet they will destroy one of their starships so that the enemy would not be able to use it?

 

[ralfy]

Yes. Isn't that exactly what you and others have done in suggesting that at some point between "Battle At The Binary Stars" and "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" Starfleet sent someone especially to retrieve the telescope from the Shenzhou's wreck, and do nothing else?


Starfleet doesn't think in such terms of "scorch the earth to leave the enemy nothing, not so much as a single measly scrap." It has never been established as their modus operandi, whether in peacetime or wartime. You can call them naive and dumb for it—and I'm sure Lorca would probably agree with you—but it would be more out of their character than in it, based on what we'd seen before. What's more, such naiveté was deliberately highlighted as a central element of that character up to this point in this story. It wasn't an oversight on the writers' part; it was intentional.

Yes, like it or not, that Starfleet was unprepared for war and completely bungled their initial response to the Klingon threat, and that it cost them dearly, is one of the main points to the story of "The Vulcan Hello"/"Battle At The Binary Stars"! It's not a plot hole...it's the plot!


It's very simple. Point me out an example of Starfleet destroying or trying to destroy an outdated ship that was already disabled, just to avoid any chance of someone exploiting its wreck, where they didn't already know someone was currently trying or had recently tried. I don't think there is even one such example, let alone enough to establish a clear pattern. The closest I can think of is the Enterprise in STIII, which meets the first two conditions but not the rest. I'm open to the possibility I've overlooked something somewhere, though.

-MMoM

It's not so much destroying every scrap but simply disabling a fully functional power core. Surely, if a starship has an automated self-destruct mechanism, and if there are many events in the franchise showing crews disabling one device, section of a ship, etc., then that should not have been difficult. And if the telescope was recovered later, then the same could have taken place.

This is obviously an issue involving a lack of common sense, as seen in ridiculous assumptions about the enemy probably starving and might need the device, or the crew acting emotionally, and so. Which is exactly what a plot hole involves: characters lacking common sense.

 

[Prax]

A plot hole is a logical incongruity. For the Statfleet side, it might be abandoning the ships, bodies, and Klingon ships(including an ancient supership with supercloak) on a battlefield left for the pickings, indefinitely.

For the Klingon it might be never going back to talk to the leader of the war, the new Kahless, who all the other klings just became loyal. And likewise, leaving all that Statfleet tech floating out there, unexamined. The Klingons might not have replicators. Imagine what they might have been able to do with one
If Kol had never got the idea "This war could bring me power, wealth, and women. I can just steal T'kuvmas ship" no one would have ever gone back there.

 

[ralfy]

This is setting a pretty low bar for "useful," of course. The only reason the dilithium processing unit has any value at all is because of a near-total command and logistics breakdown on the Klingon side. And even in that nearly best-case scenario, the value of the processing unit turned out to be marginal.

But even if we do whip up a best-case scenario where blowing up the Shenzhou turns out to have been important, that doesn't get us all the way to "Starfleet should have an always-blow-up-the-ship policy." And we'd still need to go from "should have" to "did have" before we can start talking about plot holes, and that leap is impossible given all the counterexamples above.

They recover a telescope but leave a power core functional. The main reason I've seen given in this thread for that is: the crew acted irrationally because they respect their dead commander, and they left the device functional for two reasons: Starfleet might be able to recover it later, or the enemy that does recover it might be hungry.

Unfortunately, the assumption that one might be able to recover something later does not make sense because the device can be disabled without being destroyed. It also does not make sense that assume that the one who recovers the device will use it only for humanitarian purposes. Thus, the plot hole remains.

 

[ralfy]

A plot hole is a logical incongruity. For the Statfleet side, it might be abandoning the ships, bodies, and Klingon ships(including an ancient supership with supercloak) on a battlefield left for the pickings, indefinitely.

For the Klingon it might be never going back to talk to the leader of the war, the new Kahless, who all the other klings just became loyal. And likewise, leaving all that Statfleet tech floating out there, unexamined. The Klingons might not have replicators. Imagine what they might have been able to do with one
If Kol had never got the idea "This war could bring me power, wealth, and women. I can just steal T'kuvmas ship" no one would have ever gone back there.

If the reason to abandon such is based on common sense, then there's no plot hole.

The point to consider for this franchise is what constitutes common sense for Star Fleet.

 

[fireproof78]

I still maintain that they abandoned the Shenzhou because they thought they were still in Federation territory and the ship would be retrieved. Only after returning did they fnd out that it was disputed or claimed Klingon territory.

But the topic thread is about antiheroes. In addition, sci-fi can also have characters who are not human. In some cases, characters can even be depicted as robots or computers.

In which case, the opposite of an antihero is a villain or antagonist.

What people are calling "antihero" in this thread, I'm calling human.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You are saying that Starfleet would leave such devices functional because anyone else could be able to use it. And yet they will destroy one of their starships so that the enemy would not be able to use it?

I'm saying Starfleet would destroy one of their ships to prevent the enemy from gaining access to technology that would compromise Federation security, or technology that could be immediately used against Federation citizens or Starfleet personnel by a hostile force. Shenzhou's dilithium processor is neither of those things.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The fact is the enemy were provided with something they needed from the Shenzhou. That is fact.

No. They obtained something they THOUGHT they needed from Shenzhou. This belief turned out to be incorrect.

Giving the enemy something they need is an advantage.

Nope. Giving the enemy something that allows them to defeat you is an advantage. Shenzhou's dilithium processor does not fit that description.

The facts bear out the conclusion that the Klingons salvaged something from Starfleet.

And if "prevent anyone anywhere from ever salvaging something from Starfleet" was a worthwhile use of their time, that would be relevant.

This end justifying the means logic is amusing!

It was indeed the first time YOU brought it up.

But again: Saru or anyone else had no reason to believe the Klingons would need to salvage anything at all from Shenzhou. The fact that they TRIED to has no bearing on their decisions from six months earlier. You don't get to invoke hindsight and then ignore the OTHER consequences of those same circumstances.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which proves that Starfleet was prepared to destroy its controversial and top-secret equipment to keep it from falling into enemy hands.

Fixed it for you.

Again: Shenzhou's engine components are neither of those things.

And the only reason they left the Pegasus behind in the first place was because they thought it was vaporized in a matter-antimatter explosion.

That explains why they left it behind the FIRST time. It doesn't explain why they left it the SECOND time, or why they admitted to the Romulans what they were actually doing and brought Pressman up on charges. You may recall that Starfleet left the Pegasus entombed within the asteroid at the end of that episode and didn't bother to destroy it at all. The phase-cloak experiment is now exposed for all to see, rendering any possible advantage useless.

And this is two years AFTER Starfleet caught the Romulans experimenting with exactly this kind of device! Exposing the Pegasus experiment definitely gives the Romulans an advantage, in fact it's the incident in "The Next Phase" that probably lead to Pressman needing to recover it in the first place.

Apparently, "secrets" aren't the only things useful to an enemy

Food, oxygen and water are useful to the Klingons, but Starfleet does not glass entire planets just to keep the enemy from using them.

It's clear you think they probably SHOULD. But this is Starfleet we're talking about, not the Terran Empire.

Clearly the debate is not about Starfleet's ability to replace its spareable hardware but about not giving enemy an advantage of potentially repairing its disabled ship in the absence of a rescue due to the ongoing war, and helping the war effort as the result.

That's just it: anyone who would have a reason to salvage the dilithium processor is, by definition, NOT part of the Klingon War effort. It's not as if the Klingon Empire can't even keep its own ships in repair; they have their own engineers, their own logistics and supply chains. The only reason Voq needs the processor in the first place is because the Klingon military completely turned its collective backs on them.

Or are you assuming, against all evidence, that Voq would have successfully united the Klingon houses under HIS leadership if Kol hadn't shown up? It's spurious to assume the Ship of the Dead would have done anything but limp back to Kronos and spend the rest of the war asking the High Councilors if they have a moment to talk about Khaless.

An enemy being desperate during a war time is not something to be expected?

Voq and L'Rell were abandoned by BOTH sides for more than six months. If Starfleet thought the ship was important enough that anyone would want to repair it, the Klingons would have thought so too.

Recall that Kol didn't even come to the debris field to salvage the ship. He was singularly interested in the cloaking device, and then used the ship as a trophy. Ultimately, he didn't even keep the original crew, and later conducted his OWN repairs to use it as his flagship.

In essence, by the time Voq boarded Shenzhou looking for parts, he was effectively a civilian.

Clearly the reason is to prevent an enemy from gaining an advantage. As the case with the Shenzhou's dilithium processing unit has shown, it gave the enemy an advantage of repairing their ship, which could otherwise have been stranded in the absence of a rescue.

It's the "absence of rescue" thing that renders your argument moot. If they hadn't repaired the ship, Kol would have simply killed all of them and taken the cloaking device off the ship. If they HAD repaired the ship, it's very unlikely they would have actually rejoined the war effort as a major combatant in the first place, considering Voq's outcast status and the fact that nobody in the Empire gives a shit about them in the first place.

Shenzhou's dilithium processor didn't give the Klingons any advantage that they didn't already have.

The purpose, as it's been brought up by others, would be to keep the Shenzhou from falling into enemy hands

Its lack of warp capability fully accomplished that.

Isn't one of the arguments that Shenzhou is an old ship with replaceable hardware?

Indeed. Replaceable is not the same thing as cheap.

Starfleet's "MO" is to keep their ships from falling into enemy hands.

And Shenzhou's lack of warp capability fully accomplished that.

It's a difference between repairing the ship or being left stranded unless someone rescues you.

Why would Starfleet go out of its way to prevent the rescue of someone the Klingons don't give a shit about?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's not so much destroying every scrap but simply disabling a fully functional power core.

You have already been told the "power core" was not fully functioning or even partially functioning but are now choosing to ignore this correction. Why?

They recover a telescope but leave a power core functional.

You have been told the "power core" was not functional but are choosing to ignore that correction. Why?

 

[Vger23]

What people are calling "antihero" in this thread, I'm calling human.

 

[Mudd]

The one thing that remains reassuringly familiar about all Star Trek is the apparent desire of many viewers to nitpick, explain and defend the many inconsistencies and bits of bad logic that inevitably creep up and accumulate in an sf/fantasy TV series.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Only after returning

And there lies the mistake/plot hole...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And there lies the mistake/plot hole...

How is that a plot hole? They had no idea the territory was or would become disputed, especially since killing T'Kuvma would have (and evidently, DID) completely undermined his entire call for war. It did indeed make him a symbol of failure that the Klingons immediately ceased to rally behind; if anything, they didn't expect the Klingons would actually continue the war afterwards.

 

[Prax]

Is that a different plot hole? Did the Klingons know T'Kuvma had died? They left before it happened and never returned.

Also, we have no evidence that the Binary Stars was disputed. Starfleet had 6 months to go there and finish off the Cloak ship. If they had, the war would be over as Kol would have never acquired his Mcguffin.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Is that a different plot hole? Did the Klingons know T'Kuvma had died? They left before it happened and never returned.

Evidently, they knew, as per Kol's reaction when he returned. Exactly HOW they knew is a matter of some debate, but I would imagine that a distress call from the disabled ship of the dead would have been their first clue (if they had included details of what had happened, the Klingons would have been too budy laughing at them to hear it).

Also, we have no evidence that the Binary Stars was disputed. Starfleet had 6 months to go there and finish off the Cloak ship. If they had, the war would be over as Kol would have never acquired his Mcguffin.

Both Starfleet AND the Klingons assumed the Cloak Ship was permanently off the board. Kol was the only one who bothered to go and see for himself. Starfleet probably assumed they abandoned ship and were rescued while the Klingons probably assumed they all starved to death like a bunch of losers.

The thing no one assumed was that the cloaking device would actually be worth anything strategically. Starfleet had egg on its face when this turned out to be wrong, and the Klingons were pleasantly surprised when Kol's new McGuffin turned out to be a pretty good idea... And then the tables turned, Kol died, and it was worthless again. Hell, the cloaking device ended up being useful for all of, like, a month and a half before Starfleet killed the guy who introduced it and rendered the entire concept (and this thread) meaningless.


But if we're going to talk about plot holes, let's talk about plot holes: How the hell did Ash Tyler get captured at the Battle of the Binary Stars, and who actually did the capturing? For that matter, how the hell did L'Rell wind up in command of a Klingon battlecruiser one month after returning from being completely marooned in deep space by T'Kuvma? Do you just walk off a Klingon raider after being missing for six months and say "Hey guys, long time no see... who do I have to fuck to get a starship around here?" This is the one plothole that can only really be explained by the "Ash is Voq" theory, which is pretty much ruled out by his PTSD.

 

[Prax]

Kol is dead, but not the thread, as the antihero yet lives.

Lorca, Ash, Voq, Burnham, Lrell, and others, have many more questionable moral decisions to make.

 

[AlanC9]

For the Klingon it might be never going back to talk to the leader of the war, the new Kahless, who all the other klings just became loyal. And likewise, leaving all that Statfleet tech floating out there, unexamined. The Klingons might not have replicators. Imagine what they might have been able to do with one

That "might" is just weird speculation on your part. It's hard to see how a side with replicators wouldn't have an insuperable military production advantage over the side without them. (EDIT: I guess it works if we assume that Starfleet has really lousy intel on Klingon tech, though. This isn't inconceivable.)

And T'Kuvma's dead, and known to be dead. (They've played the martyr card.) Sure, there's some other guy on the ship, but he doesn't seem to be the leader of much of anything.