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The age of the antihero

If the Klingons and Starfleet had fleets of equal sizes
Accoring to T'Kuvma, Starfleet's losses were far greater, and L'Rell tells him that the remnant of the Federation fleet is "either destroyed or hiding." Hiding from WHAT, we don't exactly know, but we're only really seeing the Shenzhou's part in this battle and it's not even clear that it actually ends after the crew's recovery, only that T'Kuvma's ship takes no further part in the action for six months after Burnham kills him.

I have a feeling it was filmed and rendered for a particular version of events, then rewritten, and edited to its current form, leaving it very confusing. It's not a big deal.
THAT much is very clear; a major plot hole is the "number of ships" issue, where there are exactly 24 ships, one for each house. It's not made clear, however, just how the empire is supposed to be "united" when two thirds of the high councilors just got killed in the opening battle of the war, their ships having been blown up by Starfleet. What's more, the second wave of ships that arrives gets hardly a mention or an explanation; we don't know who they are or why they're here, but we're left to wonder (guess?) that they're backup for the initial councilors' ships that were either waiting for an opportune moment or just happened to be late.
 
That doesn't sound like "literally everyone else in the galaxy" thought it was a "crapshoot."
They clearly DID, since nobody bothered to recover the device until Discovery turned the tide and they started losing. The only person who even bothered to try it was Kol, apparently, who boxed himself out of the initial conclave with his open show of contempt for T'Kuvma and by this point is probably more desperate than most.

More importantly, look at Spock's quote too. As explained in the other thread, it's clear that even Spock doesn't think invisibility is actually all that practical unless the Romulans did something really unusual to their power core (which they did). Of course, 50 years of Trek since have retconned that, but it kind of makes you think if the Klingons would have even BOTHERED with the cloaking device if they weren't already losing.

The original quote said "important and sensitive" technology. It sounds like an important component because otherwise they would have just used some kind of "bypass" or "compensate" to repair the Sarcophagus instead of it being left stranded.
"Important to Starfleet for military purposes" is not the same thing as "important because we're stranded."

When you're stranded on the highway with a flat tire, the most important thing you own is a tire iron.
 
No. YOU might want to disregard references to destroying Starfleet vessels orders in other Trek...
After you explain why their NOT destroying their own ships is acceptable under nearly identical circumstances while leaving Shenzhou intact is not.

To be sure:
Explain why Constellation wasn't destroyed
Explain why Stargazer wasn't destroyed
Explain why Hathaway wasn't destroyed
Explain why the Enteprise-D wasn't destroyed
Explain why none of the wrecked ships in "Best of Both Worlds" weren't destroyed

That is why this thread has gone on for pages.
This thread has gone on for pages because you keep coming up with contradictory and inconsistent criticisms and then when a half dozen people invariably tear it apart and show it to be illogical, you either change the subject or just repeat yourself as if nobody said anything. Literally the ONLY thing you have been consistent about so far is hating Discovery, but thirty pages into it you have yet to give a consistent reason for why.

It's also telling that most of the posters who agree with you seem to lack even basic knowledge about what actually happened on this show... it's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about and don't really care.
 
...I'm just going to drop my oar back in.

The Captain of the Constellation attempted to sacrifice it and himself. He failed. Kirk found it and attempted to tow it, but ended up destroying it.

The Stargazer was wrecked, and lost. Picard was Court-Martialed for losing it. It was eventually recovered, and towed back to base.

The Hathaway was an old ship brought out of storage for war games. After the war game(and incidental confrontation) it was towed back to starbase.

The Enterprise D...unknown, but I think we could safely assume it was removed from the planet, and not just left there to rot. Removing it would probably be a large operation requiring special equipment, and who knows what kind of specialized clean up vrews, but necessary for all the obvious reasons, plus the prime directive.
 
It's not made clear, however, just how the empire is supposed to be "united" when two thirds of the high councilors just got killed in the opening battle of the war, their ships having been blown up by Starfleet.

Well, for T'Kuvma's purposes, dynastic succession works just fine. If anything, getting councilors killed helps his cause, the same way his own death helped.
 
...I'm just going to drop my oar back in.

The Captain of the Constellation attempted to sacrifice it and himself. He failed.
No he didn't. His ship was immobilized with minimal life support and he evacuated his crew to the surface of the third planet, which was subsequently eaten by the planet killer. Constellation was in essentially the same condition as the Shenzhou.

But Decker didn't destroy the Constellation. Why?

The Stargazer was wrecked, and lost.
And abandoned for years, after which it was recovered by the Ferengi and deliberately used against Starfleet in an ill-conceived plot to destroy the Enterprise. It's actually WORSE than the Shenzhou since the entire ship was actually used against Starfleet and not just a salvaged engine component.

Regardless, Picard didn't destroy the Stargazer. Why?

The Hathaway was an old ship brought out of storage for war games.
Hathaway was an old ship, but we're never told what it was doing in the Braslota system, or how the Zackdorn acquired it. Or IF the Zackdorn acquired it, rather than simply FOUND it drifting abandoned in orbit of that planet.

At any rate, we're still forced to wonder why Picard and/or Riker chose to gamble on some sort of longshot ploy rather than simply abandon the ship and destroy it. Evidently even an 80 year old hulk is worth risking the lives of 40 crewmembers to make sure they recover it intact.

The Enterprise D...unknown, but I think we could safely assume it was removed from the planet, and not just left there to rot.
Eventually, sure. Just not by the ships that recovered the survivors. That was covered by one of the Shatnerverse novels, IIRC. But Picard's final log entry only laments that the Enterprise will never be salvaged, NOT that he will have to plant demolition charges to blow up the ship before anyone finds it. Why is that?

With the same basic result and the same final conclusion:
Starfleet does not sanitize its leftover equipment to prevent capture by "the enemy." They try to RECOVER their equipment whenever it is practical to do so, or wait until conditions arise as such recovery becomes possible.


Now, if we want to talk about Starfleet's actual policy in such situations, we need to look no further than The Pegasus:
PRESSMAN: However, all that changed three days ago. Starfleet Intelligence has an operative in Romulan High Command. He sent us a message that a Romulan warbird had located a piece of debris in the Devolin system which was positively identified as being from the Pegasus. The warbird was then ordered to locate the rest of the ship, if possible, and retrieve it.
LAFORGE: What would the Romulans want with pieces of a twelve year old starship?
PRESSMAN: The Pegasus was a prototype. Experimental engine, new weapon systems. In fact, some of our designs were used in constructing the Enterprise. There are a lot of things on board the Romulans would love to get their hands on.
PICARD: What are our orders?
PRESSMAN: To find the ship before the Romulans do. Salvage it if possible, destroy it if necessary. You command the Enterprise while I remain in command of the overall mission.​

Later:

RIKER: I recommend we destroy the asteroid. It would take most of our photon torpedoes, but it would preclude any possibility of the Pegasus falling into Romulan hands.
PRESSMAN: Our top priority is to salvage the ship, Commander. I'll consider destroying it only as a last resort.
RIKER: Yes, sir.​

This for a "prototype" starship that has Starfleet's revolutionary new phase cloaking device on it, and Pressman is saying that salvage is STILL their top priority.

Shenzhou is a good ship, but it's no Pegasus, and it sure as hell isn't equipped with a Starfleet cloaking device. There's nothing on that ship that would give the Klingons any more insight into Starfleet technology they don't already have; hell, it's considerably older than the twelve years the Pegasus was supposed to have had, with some of its components already obsolete. So we should expect that demolition of the ship to keep it out of "enemy hands" is something Starfleet would consider if and only if there was a real fear that capture would cause problems for Starfleet.

As discussed at some length above, there is ZERO reason to believe this is the case. And to backtrack further, this is equally true of the Constellation, the Enterprise-D and the Stargazer. Starfleet did not forsee that Damon Bok would eventually use Stargazer against Picard, nor would they consider that remote possibility justified in the case of Constellation or even Hathaway. On the other hand, James T. Kirk was charged with "Willful destruction of Federation property" for blowing up the Enterprise in the middle of a Klingon boarding party; evidently, the fact that the ship was disabled made self-destruct an act of desire instead of necessity and was therefore a major violation of Starfleet regulations.

They are not nearly identical circumstances.
In the case of Stargazer, they are EXACTLY identical circumstances. In fact, I would bet that the time it took for Bok to learn of his son's death and come looking for him only to find a derelict alien vessel of unknown origin floating in space with battle damage... was probably somewhere on the order of six months. So it's not identical, it's actually a lot worse.

Constellation's case is nearly identical if only because we know in hindsight that there was nothing on the doomsday machine that would have tried to salvage the ship for parts. But Decker didn't know that, nor could he have counted on someone like the Klingons or the Romulans stumbling upon his wrecked vessel in the asteroid field six months later. That still wasn't good enough reason for him to rig his ship to self-destruct, though, which evidently wouldn't have been all that hard to do.

tl;dr: the facts speak to the pattern that has been fairly consistent: whenever the captain judges that the prospect of capture poses a great enough risk, the ship is destroyed to mitigate that risk. In Shenzhou's case, the risk was non-existent, as even the salvaging of parts wouldn't be necessary for anyone who actually MATTERED in the Klingon war effort.
 
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Did the Shenzhou have an undamaged auto-destruct system in place? Was it possible and reasonable to use it with a countdown to ensure safe evacuation or not?

I'd like to point out that my motivation here is pure curiosity. If it's currently possible to establish what Starfleet would want or not want to do when it comes to scuttling its ships under different circumstances, then it can be more accurately determined if it's a retcon, plot hole or something else. We can also look at possible reasons why a particular ship was or was not scuttled or destroyed by some available means.

For now, I'm taking the stance of a researcher studying evidence and valid points. :cool:
Thus far on 'Discovery' the Europa had a voluntary antimatter containment breach with Georgiou declaring they were going to self-destruct, that being the method of auto-destruct. Typically the Captain/Admiral and if necessary senior officer sequence codes would be required. In the case of the Shenzhou with Georgiou dead one could presume other officers would have codes, but we really do not know. In the case of the Glenn that being the most comparable to the Shenzhou in not having a crew complement on board, Lorca destroyed the ship with torpedoes. Obviously the destruction of the Buran involved the Captain escaping death, suggesting either a quick escape after he initiated auto-destruct or that he destroyed the vessel from a distance, though if his eye injury resulted from the explosion (though we are not entirely sure it did) he was close enough.

Auto-destruct is a feature otherwise why have it? It is again obviously used to prevent the enemy from gaining advantage.
 
It looks like Memory Alpha's definition of Starfleet Order 2005 is correct, even if somewhat confusing:

Starfleet Order 2005: Orders the destruction of a starship by allowing matter and antimatter to mix in an uncontrolled manner. This was a last resort for a captain that allowed them to prevent their ship or crew from falling into enemy hands. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)​

This is the relevant dialogue from TMP:

KIRK: Mister Scott, be prepared to execute Starfleet order two zero zero five.
[. . .]
SCOTT: Aye sir.
ROSS: Why has the Captain ordered self-destruct, sir?
SCOTT: I would say, lass, because he thinks, he hopes, that when we go up ...we'll take the intruder with us.
ROSS: Will we?
SCOTT: When that much matter and anti-matter are brought together, oh yes, we will, indeed.​

Ross' question shows that Starfleet Order 2005 stands for initiating a self-destruct sequence. Scotty's explanation does not contradict its aforementioned definition, despite another possible use.

It seems the confusion comes from Memory Alpha including "(Star Trek: The Motion Picture)" right after "allowed them to prevent their ship or crew from falling into enemy hands." In reality, it was simply providing the origin for the words "Starfleet order two zero zero five" and "when that much matter and anti-matter are brought together."

This is confirmed by StarTrek.com's database entry for "auto-destruct":

Computer program aboard starships for destruction of the vessel, should the ship be captured or controlled by an enemy. Time until auto destruct is sixty seconds.

On Galaxy-class starships, for example, activation of the program requires verbal orders and handprint verification from the two most senior command officers of the ship.

Auto destruct's most infamous use occured in 2285, when Admiral Kirk destroyed Enterprise in order to prevent her from falling into enemy hands.​

At least we confirmed something. :cool:
 
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Starfleet does not sanitize its leftover equipment to prevent capture by "the enemy." They try to RECOVER their equipment whenever it is practical to do so, or wait until conditions arise as such recovery becomes possible.

Now, if we want to talk about Starfleet's actual policy in such situations, we need to look no further than The Pegasus

In TNG: "The Pegasus" Starfleet was prepared to destroy its equipment to prevent it from falling into enemy hands:

PRESSMAN: . . . The warbird was then ordered to locate the rest of the ship, if possible, and retrieve it.
[. . .]
PICARD: What are our orders?
PRESSMAN: To find the ship before the Romulans do. Salvage it if possible, destroy it if necessary.​

There's nothing on that ship that would give the Klingons any more insight into Starfleet technology they don't already have

Is an enemy's insight into Starfleet's military secrets the only valid reason?

In Shenzhou's case, the risk was non-existent, as even the salvaging of parts wouldn't be necessary for anyone who actually MATTERED in the Klingon war effort.

Well, evidently, the Shenzhou's dilithium processing unit "makes Klingon ship go." :lol:

Thus far on 'Discovery' the Europa had a voluntary antimatter containment breach with Georgiou declaring they were going to self-destruct, that being the method of auto-destruct. Typically the Captain/Admiral and if necessary senior officer sequence codes would be required. In the case of the Shenzhou with Georgiou dead one could presume other officers would have codes, but we really do not know. In the case of the Glenn that being the most comparable to the Shenzhou in not having a crew complement on board, Lorca destroyed the ship with torpedoes. Obviously the destruction of the Buran involved the Captain escaping death, suggesting either a quick escape after he initiated auto-destruct or that he destroyed the vessel from a distance, though if his eye injury resulted from the explosion (though we are not entirely sure it did) he was close enough.

Auto-destruct is a feature otherwise why have it? It is again obviously used to prevent the enemy from gaining advantage.

That's what I'm contemplating: did the Shenzhou meet the right conditions for initiating its auto-destruct sequence? Was there a good reason not to initiate it?

If anyone has any more points to make, keep making them.
 
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Yes, they try to recover their vehicles, which is what I said would be the most logical thing to do.

When Picard says "never be salvaged" he means "will never fly again" the Enterprise D was destroyed. It's broken and cannot be fixed. The saucer was a crumpled mess, and its better half was incinerated, the stardrive(where all the important stuff is) was incinerated.

The Hathaway on MA:
"In preparation for Operation Lovely Angel in, the Hathaway had been stripped down and was towed to the Braslota II in the Braslota system. While in orbit, the ship was temporarily reactivated for a Starfleet battle simulation"

It's a 100 year old ship, stripped of everything, brought out for tactical training. This is a terrible example. I'm sorry. It's entirely unrelated. The Hathaway was towed back to base after the exercize concluded. It was never at risk of abandonment.

Decker never abandoned his ship either. He thought it would be destroyed, and planned to go down with it. When the planet was destroyed, Decker or the ship sent out an automated distress call, which Kirk answered.

The constellation, like the Hathaway, was never in the window of "abandoned in space."

The only real example here is the Stargazer. You just wouldn't want to use it to support the notion that Starfleet is A-OK with leaving partially intact Starships abandoned in space. In "The Battle" it's made clear that Picard went through a rigorous court martial. He was charged with a crime! What was the crime? A Captain losing their Starship. He was acquitted, though. So he must have had no other option, and not found negligent in his duties as captain.

The fact that the Ferengi seized the vessel adds all the weight needed to show why leaving ships around is a bad idea.

I'm glad you mentioned the Pegasus. Here we have orders to salvage or destroy, not abandon. It wasn't abandoned the first time either. Pressman and his crew watched it be destroyed(or so they thought). If it had been known otherwise, it wouldn't have been left out there.

Lorca does what Pressman had in mind. Retrieve anything special. Lorca destroys the rest. This is somewhat mind boggling in itself. The Glenn is a brand spankin new experimental vessel. One of only two. It appears to be fully intact. Could he not tow it back? Maybe he feared the Klingons.

If these are the best examples Trek has to offer of ships being abandoned, then there are no good examples.
 
Yes, they try to recover their vehicles, which is what I said would be the most logical thing to do.

When Picard says "never be salvaged" he means "will never fly again" the Enterprise D was destroyed. It's broken and cannot be fixed. The saucer was a crumpled mess, and its better half was incinerated, the stardrive(where all the important stuff is) was incinerated.

The Hathaway on MA:
"In preparation for Operation Lovely Angel in, the Hathaway had been stripped down and was towed to the Braslota II in the Braslota system. While in orbit, the ship was temporarily reactivated for a Starfleet battle simulation"

It's a 100 year old ship, stripped of everything, brought out for tactical training. This is a terrible example. I'm sorry. It's entirely unrelated. The Hathaway was towed back to base after the exercize concluded. It was never at risk of abandonment.

Decker never abandoned his ship either. He thought it would be destroyed, and planned to go down with it. When the planet was destroyed, Decker or the ship sent out an automated distress call, which Kirk answered.

The constellation, like the Hathaway, was never in the window of "abandoned in space."

The only real example here is the Stargazer. You just wouldn't want to use it to support the notion that Starfleet is A-OK with leaving partially intact Starships abandoned in space. In "The Battle" it's made clear that Picard went through a rigorous court martial. He was charged with a crime! What was the crime? A Captain losing their Starship. He was acquitted, though. So he must have had no other option, and not found negligent in his duties as captain.

The fact that the Ferengi seized the vessel adds all the weight needed to show why leaving ships around is a bad idea.

I'm glad you mentioned the Pegasus. Here we have orders to salvage or destroy, not abandon. It wasn't abandoned the first time either. Pressman and his crew watched it be destroyed(or so they thought). If it had been known otherwise, it wouldn't have been left out there.

Lorca does what Pressman had in mind. Retrieve anything special. Lorca destroys the rest. This is somewhat mind boggling in itself. The Glenn is a brand spankin new experimental vessel. One of only two. It appears to be fully intact. Could he not tow it back? Maybe he feared the Klingons.

If these are the best examples Trek has to offer of ships being abandoned, then there are no good examples.
Prax, you might be misunderstanding the opposing viewpoint. No one's suggesting that SF would willfully, permanently abandon resources. The goal would be to (eventually) salvage whenever possible, and destroy only as a last resort - which all of the above examples do show, and DSC is consistent with. Leaving the Shenzhou in escape pods was not a "last resort" situation, nor was it feasible at that time to salvage it.

And let's stop pretending that six months is an inordinate amount of time to send out salvage missions, especially in wartime. Actually, we have seen this before...

KIRA: Captain, I'm picking up a Starfleet distress signal, bearing three one eight mark zero zero five. Range, ten light years.
WORF: That location is inside Dominion held space.
SISKO: Can you identify the ship sending the distress call?
KIRA: Looks like it's from an escape pod. USS Valiant.
WORF: The Valiant was reported lost over eight months ago. It could be a Dominion ruse to lure us into their territory.


In fact the Valiant wasn't lost, so if Starfleet doesn't know that already, they obviously hadn't gone back to the battle scene in several months to confirm. You know, it's almost as if salvaging or scuttling wrecks is a relatively low priority, and especially not considered worth the risk during active hostilities. Or is this a plot hole too?

Heck, even in peacetime, it can take months:

Captain's log, stardate 44704.2. We have arrived at the Argus Array, a remote subspace telescope at the very edge of Federation space. The unmanned structure mysteriously stopped relaying its data nearly two months ago.

Wow, this mission sounds pretty familiar too! A sensor relay at the edge of Federation space. Well, I guess it still takes time for Starfleet to coordinate its resources, exemplary tech hygiene notwithstanding. ;) How long had T'Kuvma been waiting for a response, I wonder?
 
Thus far on 'Discovery' the Europa had a voluntary antimatter containment breach with Georgiou declaring they were going to self-destruct, that being the method of auto-destruct. Typically the Captain/Admiral and if necessary senior officer sequence codes would be required. In the case of the Shenzhou with Georgiou dead one could presume other officers would have codes, but we really do not know. In the case of the Glenn that being the most comparable to the Shenzhou in not having a crew complement on board, Lorca destroyed the ship with torpedoes. Obviously the destruction of the Buran involved the Captain escaping death, suggesting either a quick escape after he initiated auto-destruct or that he destroyed the vessel from a distance, though if his eye injury resulted from the explosion (though we are not entirely sure it did) he was close enough.

Auto-destruct is a feature otherwise why have it? It is again obviously used to prevent the enemy from gaining advantage.

Clearly not the case.
Thus far, I see no reason for the Shenzhou crew to assume the Klingons would use their ship.

As audience members, yeah we see that. But, the characters are not the audience. It's like screaming at the screen during a horror movie. We know, but the characters don't.
 
The only reason the Shenzhou has any value for any Klingons is a nearly-inconceivable command failure on the Klingon side. We can hardly fault Starfleet for not designing policies around that.
 
The only reason the Shenzhou has any value for any Klingons is a nearly-inconceivable command failure on the Klingon side. We can hardly fault Starfleet for not designing policies around that.
I truly feel that the "plot holes" comes from thinking the crew members would somehow know the Klingons would utilize their disabled ship against them, when the Klingons had won.
 
At the same time, it assumes that the area is easily accessible to both sides. Interestingly, no one cries about the stupidity of the Klingons for not vaporizing any of their own ships that Voq scavenged, even though it was equally likely (unlikely) that some Starfleet stragglers would have been left for 6 months and end up repairing one of their own ships with Klingon parts. The only difference, of course, is that that didn't happen.
 
Thus far, I see no reason for the Shenzhou crew to assume the Klingons would use their ship.

As audience members, yeah we see that. But, the characters are not the audience. It's like screaming at the screen during a horror movie. We know, but the characters don't.
Merry Christmas, fireproof78! Glad you are enjoying the show, I'm looking forward to the Christmas Doctor Who!
 
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