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The age of the antihero

Reasonable is where you lose your argument. Blowing up an empty ship (note to Lorca - empty) is reasonable.
Not if you're planning to salvage it and put it back into service later.

Frankly I don't know what other invaluable resources were left on the Shenzhou but if there was anything that was left there to be exploited by the enemy OR not protected by Starfleet it should have been either transported or destroyed.
Key word there is "should," which is based on a number of assumptions that are actually relevant only in hindsight, which makes those "should have done" measures beyond the scope of what is normally reasonable.

What you're being asked to demonstrate is whether or not this has ever been standard procedure for Starfleet. There are a dozen examples that suggest it isn't, so we're all sort of confused as to why you keep trying to make this point.
 
Then I'm right. They are stupid, if they'd think that cloaking tech would not be an advantage.
The U.S. Navy didn't think aircraft carriers would be a major advantage until about five minutes into Pearl Harbor. Incidentally, NOBODY thought that submarines were worth anything until the Germans proved everyone wrong in World War I. This, despite the fact that both technologies were decades old by the time anyone realized their full potential.

As it stands, thanks to Starfleet's countermeasures, the cloak STILL doesn't provide much of an advantage by the end of the war. It's brief heyday as a strategic weapon came to an abrupt end at the Battle of Pahvo. So really, if the Klingons thought cloaking tech didn't give them much of an advantage, they're at least half right.
 
The U.S. Navy didn't think aircraft carriers would be a major advantage until about five minutes into Pearl Harbor. Incidentally, NOBODY thought that submarines were worth anything until the Germans proved everyone wrong in World War I. This, despite the fact that both technologies were decades old by the time anyone realized their full potential.

As it stands, thanks to Starfleet's countermeasures, the cloak STILL doesn't provide much of an advantage by the end of the war. It's brief heyday as a strategic weapon came to an abrupt end at the Battle of Pahvo. So really, if the Klingons thought cloaking tech didn't give them much of an advantage, they're at least half right.
Indeed. At the end of the Battle of Pahvo, the Sarcophagus Ship is completely destroyed, taking Kol and every other witness to the Discovery's actions with it. At this point, the cloaking device is a liability. One that not only requires power to operate and leaves the cloaked ship vulnerable, but also provides the cloaked ship's crew with a false sense of stealth and security. It will cost the Klingons dearly before they finally figure out that Kol's gift to the loyal is what's killing all their ships.
 
The U.S. Navy didn't think aircraft carriers would be a major advantage until about five minutes into Pearl Harbor. Incidentally, NOBODY thought that submarines were worth anything until the Germans proved everyone wrong in World War I. This, despite the fact that both technologies were decades old by the time anyone realized their full potential.

As it stands, thanks to Starfleet's countermeasures, the cloak STILL doesn't provide much of an advantage by the end of the war. It's brief heyday as a strategic weapon came to an abrupt end at the Battle of Pahvo. So really, if the Klingons thought cloaking tech didn't give them much of an advantage, they're at least half right.

They needed 9 months and a spore drive that requires a living being to work properly to overcome that cloak. I guess you are right. It wasn't an advantage at all. That makes the Starfleet of the 24th century look massively retarded when they strike their deal with the Romulans to get access to their cloaking tech for the Defiant.
 
Indeed. At the end of the Battle of Pahvo, the Sarcophagus Ship is completely destroyed, taking Kol and every other witness to the Discovery's actions with it. At this point, the cloaking device is a liability. One that not only requires power to operate and leaves the cloaked ship vulnerable, but also provides the cloaked ship's crew with a false sense of stealth and security. It will cost the Klingons dearly before they finally figure out that Kol's gift to the loyal is what's killing all their ships.

The Discovery is gone to Lorca-knows-where. The cloaking technology will remain a mystery and a threat to the Federation and Starfleet. And it will cost them more lives when the Romulans breach the Neutral Zone.
 
They needed 9 months and a spore drive that requires a living being to work properly to overcome that cloak.
Was it really nine months, though? Kol didn't start giving cloaking devices to anyone until at least 7 months into the war, it seems, at which point the Klingons seemed to be doing just fine without it. Discovery turned the tide significantly, in ways that Starfleet was more than able to capitalize even with Discovery refraining from further raids. The cloaking device turned it back, but only at the last minute, and only until Pahvo, which also sees the death of their one remaining unifying leader.

I guess you are right. It wasn't an advantage at all.
As I said, it BRIEFLY was, for about a month. And then Pahvo happened and it not only ceased to be an advantage, but the guy who understood the technology best was dead and the empire was now scattered and leaderless.

Put another way: the Klingon cloaking device is a bit like the Confederacy's experiments with submarines. CSS Hunley was a great idea and a fleet of those things probably would have done the Union some considerable damage... right up until the moment the Union figured out how to reliably kill 19th century submarines with relatively simple depth charges. At that point, submarine technology still has lots of potential, but the only army that's still using it is about to get its ass whupped.

Put another way: a good friend of mine once asked the rhetorical question "Why is everyone so obsessed with German military engineering when they haven't won a war since 1895?"
 
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Recovered after the battle.
...when Shenzhou was evacuated?

Apparently, a complex and delicate procedure that a Klingon managed to do?
Is that some sort of not-so-subtly racist dig at Klingons? Kirk would be so proud!:techman:

A pair of Klingons managed to do it, yes, with concerted and carefully coordinated effort, and at great risk of it blowing up in their faces, highly motivated by a heady combination of impending starvation, religious fervor, and sexual tension. Potent.

VOQ: [looking at a PADD displaying holographic images of Georgiou and Burnham] L'Rell. There is nothing worth taking on this deck, or in the captain's ready room.
L'RELL: I have located the dilithium processor. The coupling unit is covered in crystal residue. Unplugging the processor could cause an explosion. One sudden move and we join the Black Fleet.

What we need to consider is what makes sense. We have no evidence showing that Burnham or Saru did not want the scope left behind
They quite obviously both knew of its significance to Georgiou. Georgiou died and they weren't able to recover her body. It makes perfect sense that they would want it brought back to her family rather than left behind. It was the least they could do, really.

the first thing crew members look after are the lives of those who are helpless or their own
Yes. And there is no suggestion that taking the telescope would have needed to come at the expense of this. None at all.

then retrieving or rendering useless (note the "or") anything that is critical for their military organization or side (such as encryption devices and ship logs), then anything that might be used by the enemy to their advantage (such as power cores)
Well, there is no indication they didn't wipe or fry the computer core, if you prefer to believe that they did. The dilithium processor (I take it that is what you keep referring to as the "power core"?) was found in a precarious condition and could well have blown up at the first attempt to remove it. What reason is there to think other components were in any better shape? Besides, they were inferior components to begin with. Shenzhou was already an old and outdated vessel a decade before any of this. These two particular Klingons only bothered because they were desperate.

As much as one wants to insist that people in battle and who have to deal with emergencies like abandoning ships are sentimental, it is highly likely that they are more sensible, especially given trained personnel in such organizations.
If you were to look into it, I'm sure you would find real-life accounts of exactly such battlefield sentimentality among trained service personnel. But again, the evacuation of the Shenzhou did not take place in the midst of battle. It took place after the battle was over.

Given that, what is more likely is that the container was recovered after the battle
Again, the container we saw it in later was from Starfleet Command. Not that there's any reason the telescope couldn't have been put in a container when it was initially recovered after the battle...during the evacuation of Shenzhou.

especially given the point you raised that the Klingon did not see anything else worth taking, which means Star Fleet or others were recovering various things from the abandoned ship.
Or it means the none of the other stuff floating around this lifeless hulk of a ship that was already old and outdated a decade earlier was of any value to them. They just happened to need that one particular part, which again, they had a deuce of a time getting away with in one piece.

Also, I don't understand why the ship was located inside Klingon territory. Didn't the battle take place near a Star Fleet relay?
The battle took place at the very edge of Federation space, so once the Feds lost the battle and withdrew, the area became de facto Klingon territory.

If they were left to drift for months in that area filled with debris, and with no one bothering to recover the power core, then that could only mean that the place was not kept secure by the Klingons or the Feds, and thus accessible to anyone to recover ship contents.
The Klingons and Feds were busy fighting each other elsewhere. The war had moved on from this initial battleground, further into Federation territory, leaving the area inaccessible to the Feds (because it was now behind the Klingons' lines) and of no interest to the Klingons (because they already had the Feds on the run).

Reasonable is where you lose your argument. Blowing up an empty ship (note to Lorca - empty) is reasonable. Please don't suggest it was in the too difficult basket. Torpedoes are 'reasonably' available in war situations.
Lifeboats have torpedoes?

Self-destruct options and settings are an option too.
I wonder. Nemesis showed us that extensive battle damage can render self-destruct mechanisms inoperable. Oh, I'm sure they could have found some fairly straightforward way of doing it, like leave a torpedo warhead next to the dilithium processor...but what if they'd then encountered difficulties in the course of the evacuation and needed to return the ship for some reason? Then they'd really be screwed! And in any case, as @Crazy Eddie and others have said, destroying one's ship after abandoning it has simply never been portrayed as standard operating procedure for Starfleet. It's only ever been done under extraordinary circumstances for some very specific and pressing reason, like in STIII (because they needed to even the odds by taking out as many Klingons as they could in one fell swoop in order to have a fighting chance against those left) or in "Context Is For Kings" (because the Glenn, unlike the Shenzhou, was an advanced prototype with top secret cutting-edge tech on board).

Frankly I don't know what other invaluable resources were left on the Shenzhou but if there was anything that was left there to be exploited by the enemy OR not protected by Starfleet it should have been either transported or destroyed.
Yet again, you're not far off, but don't seem to realize that you've essentially answered your own complaint. Anything they cared enough about not to leave behind was taken—right down to the telescope—meaning whatever was left wasn't deemed exploitable, nor even worth destroying. The unlikely scenario that these two desperate Klingons nonetheless were able to find something which to them was worth exploiting, and then managed to do so, was basically a fluke. Of course, you could make the case that Starfleet with its vaunted reputation for "tech hygiene" should have foreseen this possibility and are great blundering hypocrites for not doing so. Which once again would be entirely in line with the thrust of the story: they may be fools, but they're our fools!

EDIT:
"Starfleet's reputation for tech hygiene is exemplary."
–Commander Michael Burnham
Ninja'd!

Is it because the technology is good but the military leadership sucks?
Like Starfleet?

-MMoM:D
 
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"Starfleet's reputation for tech hygiene is exemplary."
–Commander Michael Burnham
Right, which means that sending a ship to recover lost Starfleet technology is high on their priorities list and they prefer not to leave defunct technology just lying around where some uncontacted civilization might encounter it. They're far more worried about an accidental violation of the prime directive than they are about enemies getting access to their technology, and even then they aren't always particularly thorough.

The Binary Stars isn't an inhabited system, though, so recovery would have a lower priority than it would in orbit of, say, Veridian Three or Mintaka.
 
I don't think tech hygiene means what you think it does.

By all means, enlighten me. What does tech hygiene really mean?

"More so" implies you've established that there's a baseline tendency to do this, which you haven't.

The "baseline tendency" as you call it, has been established by real world history. Technology, espionage and war go hand to hand since the dawn of civilization.

Right, which means that sending a ship to recover lost Starfleet technology is high on their priorities list and they prefer not to leave defunct technology just lying around

This is what it's all about. Fear of accidental violation of the prime directive in peacetime, paranoid fear of technology and data falling into enemy hands in wartime.
 
The "baseline tendency" as you call it, has been established by real world history...
... as something that most militaries don't really give a shit about except under extraordinary circumstances. The germans, in particular, didn't really care about their submarines getting captured, they cared about their ENIGMA MACHINES getting captured, because those devices had extraordinary capabilities and the allies getting a hold of them would be really really bad.

And yet the allies still managed to get a hold of them more often than not. Do you know why that is? Because when you're the captain of a sinking ship, full of sailors who are trying really hard not to drown, protecting your asshole government's military secrets drop a lot lower on your list of priorities. And that is NOT speculation, that is LITERALLY what happened on U-505: the captain and crew were too busy trying not to get murdered by the Allies to really care about the enigma machine.

Technology, espionage and war go hand to hand since the dawn of civilization.
As does the capture of enemy weapons and technology on the battlefield. F-14 pilots during the first Gulf War had the very curious experience of having Iraqi pilots totally lose their shit whenever they picked up their radar signals. Apparently they'd gotten really used to flying against Iranian pilots flying those same F-14s in the Iran-Iraq war.

More recently, ISIS fighters in Iraq captured a shit ton of hardware the Iraqi Army abandoned which was, incidentally, left to them by the U.S. occupation forces, which means U.S. soldiers fighting ISIS are basically being shot at by their own weapons.

This is what it's all about. Fear of accidental violation of the prime directive in peacetime
...Is something we have seen.

paranoid fear of technology and data falling into enemy hands in wartime.
... is something they have clearly never cared about.
 
They needed 9 months and a spore drive that requires a living being to work properly to overcome that cloak. I guess you are right. It wasn't an advantage at all. That makes the Starfleet of the 24th century look massively retarded when they strike their deal with the Romulans to get access to their cloaking tech for the Defiant.
Since they had a treaty prohibiting it perhaps it was better? Especially since Starfleet tried to obtain a Romulan cloak in "The Enterprise Incident" for kicks and giggles, apparently :shrug:

Also, as a further note of discussion, this is all hind sight, based upon being an audience member and not in the middle of the situation. As much training as I have received to evaluate clients who are suicidal, I still have a brief "freeze" moment whenever I have to assess for suicide or homicidal intent. Training is great and fantastic, but when things hit the fan then it is tougher to follow protocols

We would love to believe that, being in the situation, we would react appropriately, destroy all of appropriate materials, and leave nothing for the enemy, while running for our lives.

DISCO seems to be a bit unique in comparison to other Trek shows, in that it doesn't present our main characters as heroic, or always right and moral. Like DS9, war creates shades of gray that mean they make mistakes. They'll be called in to doubt, behave irrationally, and challenging.

I enjoy Monday Morning Captaining as much as the next fan, but DISCO is taking a different approach.
 
Because when you're the captain of a sinking ship, full of sailors who are trying really hard not to drown, protecting your asshole government's military secrets drop a lot lower on your list of priorities. And that is NOT speculation, that is LITERALLY what happened on U-505[sic]: the captain and crew were too busy trying not to get murdered by the Allies to really care about the enigma machine.

Not that it has any relevance to the current discussion at all, but that's not exactly true. The German Captain radioed his superiors while his crew began destroying their Enigma machine and dumping code books overboard. In his inexperience or panic, he didn’t encode the message, which was picked up by the British who ordered all available ships to the scene. The Germans also ordered U-boats to the area. The U-82 responded, but Allied bombers forced it to leave the area. The British ship HMT Northern Chief finally reached the U-570 and threatened to kill everyone, including those in life-rafts and life-jackets, if the submarine was scuttled.

But we're not talking about the captain of the starship in the heat of the battle here. We're talking about Starfleet Command for six whole months after the end of the battle and after all the rescue operations. And I've never said anything about the abandoned hull of the Shenzhou either. It's what's left inside that matters (like the Enigma codes of U-570).

As does the capture of enemy weapons and technology on the battlefield. F-14 pilots during the first Gulf War had the very curious experience of having Iraqi pilots totally lose their shit whenever they picked up their radar signals. Apparently they'd gotten really used to flying against Iranian pilots flying those same F-14s in the Iran-Iraq war.

More recently, ISIS fighters in Iraq captured a shit ton of hardware the Iraqi Army abandoned which was, incidentally, left to them by the U.S. occupation forces, which means U.S. soldiers fighting ISIS are basically being shot at by their own weapons.

And that's exactly why you do your damn to avoid it when you can. Because it does happen. That's what I've been saying all along!

... is something they have clearly never cared about.
*Chuckle*

The auto-destruct system (also known as self-destruct or destruct sequence) was a starship system that allowed the total destruction of the vessel. This was typically activated as a last resort, usually to prevent a ship from falling into enemy hands.

Well, they must have cared at least a little about it if they have thought of such a grim contingency! :lol:
 
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Not that it has any relevance to the current discussion at all, but that's not exactly true. The German Captain radioed his superiors while his crew began destroying their Enigma machine and dumping code books overboard. In his inexperience or panic, he didn’t encode the message, which was picked up by the British who ordered all available ships to the scene. The Germans also ordered U-boats to the area. The U-82 responded, but Allied bombers forced it to leave the area. The British ship HMT Northern Chief finally reached the U-570 and threatened to kill everyone, including those in life-rafts and life-jackets, if the submarine was scuttled.

But we're not talking about the captain of the starship in the heat of the battle here. We're talking about Starfleet Command for six whole months after the end of the battle and after all the rescue operations.



And that's exactly why you do your damn to avoid it when you can as I've already said. Thank you for proving my point one more time!


*Chuckle*

The auto-destruct system (also known as self-destruct or destruct sequence) was a starship system that allowed the total destruction of the vessel. This was typically activated as a last resort, usually to prevent a ship from falling into enemy hands.

Well, they must have cared at least a little about it if they have thought of such a grim contingency! :lol:
And it is so vital it requires two to three senior officers to enact it. O_o
 
But we're not talking about the captain of the starship in the heat of the battle here. We're talking about Starfleet Command for six whole months after the end of the battle and after all the rescue operations.
Sure, and you posit that it's standard procedure to torpedo your ships when you return. And, still, zero evidence that this is true.


The auto-destruct system (also known as self-destruct or destruct sequence) was a starship system that allowed the total destruction of the vessel. This was typically activated as a last resort, usually to prevent a ship from falling into enemy hands.

Well, they must have cared at least a little about it if they have thought of such a grim contingency! :lol:
Obviously. But that is very different from it being standard after any battle, especially when we already know that it does not always happen. Perhaps instead of taking one sentence on Memory Alpha (which you conveniently forgot to highlight the "last resort" part) and extrapolating it to your foregone conclusions, you could provide some actual examples? If it's as common as you suggest then it should be easy to find many examples through 50 years of Trek, but in fact it's rarely seen and treated as a rare event when it is. Actually every time auto-destruct was used "to prevent a ship from falling into enemy hands" the enemy takeover was already in progress on an active ship. The Shenzhou was dead in space and evacuated.

Destruction as a purely preventative measure has happened, but only in cases of obvious important technology e.g. the Iconian gateways, or even the spore drive (Glenn) in DSC. In case you haven't figured it out yet, a dilithium processor that everyone already has does not fall into this category.
 
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What you're being asked to demonstrate is whether or not this has ever been standard procedure for Starfleet. There are a dozen examples that suggest it isn't, so we're all sort of confused as to why you keep trying to make this point.
No one has asked me that and why is it a requirement for common sense? However it must have been some kind of Starfleet procedure to destroy sensitive Starfleet resources. The Glenn was blown up.
 
No one has asked me that and why is it a requirement for common sense? However it must have been some kind of Starfleet procedure to destroy sensitive Starfleet resources. The Glenn was blown up.
Asked and answered, counselor:

I wonder. Nemesis showed us that extensive battle damage can render self-destruct mechanisms inoperable. Oh, I'm sure they could have found some fairly straightforward way of doing it, like leave a torpedo warhead next to the dilithium processor...but what if they'd then encountered difficulties in the course of the evacuation and needed to return the ship for some reason? Then they'd really be screwed! And in any case, as @Crazy Eddie and others have said, destroying one's ship after abandoning it has simply never been portrayed as standard operating procedure for Starfleet. It's only ever been done under extraordinary circumstances for some very specific and pressing reason, like in STIII (because they needed to even the odds by taking out as many Klingons as they could in one fell swoop in order to have a fighting chance against those left) or in "Context Is For Kings" (because the Glenn, unlike the Shenzhou, was an advanced prototype with top secret cutting-edge tech on board).
 
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