The age of the antihero

[ralfy]

That doesn't make any sense at all. What reason is there to think this? Why do people still keep suggesting it? (Unless you meant "later" in the sense of "after Georgiou's death, but before the evacuation.")

Recovered after the battle.

Not really. The decision to abandon ship was apparently made subsequent to Burnham's return to Shenzhou, as Georgiou originally thought they'd be able to get at least the impulse engines working again and withdraw while she departed on her proposed kamikaze mission. Evidently that was re-evaluated after her death. The telescope was a small, easily portable item. The dilithium processor was not, because it had to be removed by a complex and delicate procedure with great danger of it blowing up in one's face at the slightest misstep. (And hey, that gives me an idea: maybe they left it there deliberately as a booby trap? Voq did say there wasn't anything else left worth taking, didn't he?)

-MMoM

Apparently, a complex and delicate procedure that a Klingon managed to do?

 

[ralfy]

I've just now reviewed the pertinent scenes, and I still don't see how.

The telescope was Georgiou's most prized possession, a precious family heirloom. Neither Saru nor Burnham would want it left behind. They would want it returned to her family. Neither expected to later receive it themselves. After being processed at Starfleet Command, it was packaged and sent to Burnham through Starfleet's internal mail system in accordance with Georgiou's will, as indicated by the labels and attached message. That's why the case was coded for Burnham. There was no apparent obstacle to its being taken during the evacuation. It was not particularly bulky—and would be even less so without that case, which again I now see was just how Burnham later received it, there isn't even any need for what I said earlier about Georgiou packaging it herself between scenes—and the evacuation did not seem to be overly hasty. There is zero indication it was retrieved at a later time.

-MMoM

What we need to consider is what makes sense. We have no evidence showing that Burnham or Saru did not want the scope left behind or that Saru carried it to the escape pod. At the same time, we know from other shows that the first thing crew members look after are the lives of those who are helpless or their own, then retrieving or rendering useless (note the "or") anything that is critical for their military organization or side (such as encryption devices and ship logs), then anything that might be used by the enemy to their advantage (such as power cores), then any personal effects that is larger than what they can put in their pockets, and then any personal effects belonging to others. And if Georgieu was a sensible person (i.e., she values the lives of her crew more than she does her belongings), she would have probably said the same.

As much as one wants to insist that people in battle and who have to deal with emergencies like abandoning ships are sentimental, it is highly likely that they are more sensible, especially given trained personnel in such organizations. Given that, what is more likely is that the container was recovered after the battle, especially given the point you raised that the Klingon did not see anything else worth taking, which means Star Fleet or others were recovering various things from the abandoned ship. That also counters the argument that the power core was left or was not booby trapped because no recovery took place.

 

[ralfy]

Wait, what ? So the transporters only work for things and in situations the writers decide they should ? If they are shown to transport all types of objects in a certain range they do transport all objects in a certain range. There's no more to it. No mental gymnastics can change that.

The ship was mortally wounded and had to be abandoned. Don't you remember that?

"We never saw anything else that doesn't resemble a Connie in TOS, therefore, all ships belonging to that Era must look like a Connie"

My argument has nothing to do with what you wrote. Why are you now resorting to trolling?

Ah, yes! All those times when the British parachuted thousands of soldiers on France before D-Day so they could recover some outdated French encryption code. Yes, yes, wasting manpower and resources to venture inside enemy territory to capture useless garbage is a common phenomenon in recorded History.

Consider the

German submarine U-559

The crew failed to destroy the code books or the Enigma machine. The retrieval of the machine led to Allied code-breakers' success.

I don't remember any line like that in DSC. Even if that's true, what you're saying is: Let's destroy the only few ships we have to recover unredeemable dead ships inside Klingon territory. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Actually, what I'm saying is that this gives them all the more reason to recover the power core, or failing that, render it useless. Also, I don't understand why the ship was located inside Klingon territory. Didn't the battle take place near a Star Fleet relay?

All non-Humans in Star Trek are cold hearted bastards like the Vulcans ? Just because Saru is an Alien it doesn't mean he isn't sentimental.

Not cold-hearted but sensible, especially given the situation in which they found themselves in. It takes a vivid imagination to argue that sentimentality trumps all that, especially given has taken place in similar events in various TV episodes and features in the franchise.

You missed the point. I meant people risk their lives for objects that are dear for them or the people they love. They don't need to "literally die".

That certainly applies if you still see Star Fleet personnel as as "hippie explorers."

If they are decoded they aren't critical. The evidence is that the Federation always puts its priorities in peace time tech in the Prime Timeline and the Encryption Device is a wartime tech. That's why we have an entire Kelvin Timeline Movie dedicated to the thought of what would happen if the Federation was more dedicated to war tech. That was the point of Yesterday's Enterprise too. Like I said, you're confusing stuff like Starship Troopers with Star Trek.

Information is not classified and encrypted only in times of war! You're incredibly naive.

How the hell would they predict there would be a bunch of starving Klingons on those ships and that they would solve the situation by getting the power core of one of their ships ? Even if they did predict that, what is gained by preventing starving people from dying ? Are they sadistic or what ?

That makes absolutely no sense at all! Where did you get the ridiculous idea that salvage and recovery is based on clairvoyance?

Ah, yes! I remember Kirk's monologue from TOS:

"Space, the final crusade. These are the battles of the warship Enterprise. Its five year mission: To enslave strange new worlds. To destroy new life forms and whole civilizations. To boldly conquer what no ubermensch has conquered before!"

There's also that time Picard decided to genocide the Borg, Sisko decided to kill the prophets so they couldn't create any more wormholes connecting to Dominion space and those times Voyager pillaged planets in the Delta Quadrant for resources. How I could've forgot all those moments that show us that the Federation is definitely not a Pacifist Entity ?

Wait a minute? You actually thought all along that the Federation operated primarily as a peaceful and pacifist group? LOL.

Having guns means you don't believe in peace ? Just because you believe in pacifist ideals it doesn't mean you're not allowed to defend yourself. That's why Gandhi is a National Hero in India but the Indians still have a Military. Are they dishonoring him or what ? I don't think so.

Well, that is what a pacifist is. I think you're using the wrong term to describe the Feds. My understanding is that they combine scientific exploration with diplomacy and military defense.

Kirk is an idealist that doesn't believe in defeat, is concerned half of the time with his romantic life and gives inspirational speeches all the time.

Picard believes in ethics above all, often tries to solve problems using philosophy, has the soul of an artist and sought out the origin of life as we knew it.

Janeway considers the people around her a family and had more patience with annoying highly advanced energy beings than any other ST Captain, even tried to save them.

Sisko is literally a new age religious figure, even if he doesn't want to.

Now, I don't know about you, but these characters archetypes sound more like "Hippie explorer" to me than "sociopath soldier who solves all problems at gunpoint".

Where did you get the idea that one is either a "hippie explorer" or a sociopath? Can't you imagine characters who are between?

Really, if you want to see hippie explorer, then why not refer to these characters?

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And don't forget to talk about Lorca and other characters from STD.

This Klingon War isn't about resources. How hard it is to understand that ? Maybe if you weren't hate-watching DISCO you would've understood that a long time ago.

Of course, it is! How do you think they got the cloaking device working? Why do you think the mining sites were attacked? You've been watching another franchise all along!

Since people are engaging in pedantry, I'm taking my time to engage in it too. If you want to be ridiculous let's be ridiculous, then.

My argument is based on common sense. You're the one who's been coming up with all sorts of ideas, that Saru brought along the 'scope because he's a "big boy" or that he used transporters or anti-grav devices, that Star Fleet had no reason to recover anything from the ship, and that all of these are so because they're all "hippie explorers." Good grief.

The telescope scene is a small detail about Georgiou and Michael's relationship if compared to the first two episodes. There was even a long flashback scene about the time Michael first arrived at the Shenzhou, but hey, let's consider the short telescope scene as important as those!

So, what is the purpose of including that scene?

Well, thank the Gods you're not in charge of DISCO then. Because a flashback scene at that moment would not only be boring as hell but would screw up the entire rhythm of the episode.

I didn't say that it would be included at that moment. Reread what I wrote.

 

[ralfy]

But what does any of that have to do with the telescope, though?

And you seem to continue to overlook that the location of the sarcophagus ship and Shenzhou's wreck would now be behind the enemy lines.

If they were left to drift for months in that area filled with debris, and with no one bothering to recover the power core, then that could only mean that the place was not kept secure by the Klingons or the Feds, and thus accessible to anyone to recover ship contents.

 

[ralfy]

For like the millionth time, there is no reason to think that this happened. It's an entirely unsupported suggestion, and only introduces further "plot holes" that aren't otherwise present. It doesn't make sense, and I can't see any reason to believe it was intended.

-MMoM

It makes sense because, as you pointed out, the Klingon stated that they found nothing else of value. That means some group managed to recover things from the ship but for some reason left the power core functioning.

It's reasonable to argue that one of the places that it would go to is the captain's quarters.

 

[fireproof78]

If they were left to drift for months in that area filled with debris, and with no one bothering to recover the power core, then that could only mean that the place was not kept secure by the Klingons or the Feds, and thus accessible to anyone to recover ship contents.

I wonder if either side would be willing to risk another possible ambush?

 

[Satron]

But what does any of that have to do with the telescope, though?

And you seem to continue to overlook that the location of the sarcophagus ship and Shenzhou's wreck would now be behind the enemy lines.

Why did the Klingons ignore this system for six month when they know they have a technological advantage floating there in the sarcophagus ship?

 

[O_Kav]

The ship was mortally wounded and had to be abandoned. Don't you remember that?

The transporter was still working when the Sarcophagus Ship was bombed because Saru had Michael transported back.

My argument has nothing to do with what you wrote. Why are you now resorting to trolling?

When you don't have any arguments you accuse people of trolling you ? I was just pointing out how silly you sound claiming certain elements can only be present in Star Trek if they were already depicted before.

Consider the

German submarine U-559

The crew failed to destroy the code books or the Enigma machine. The retrieval of the machine led to Allied code-breakers' success.

You just proved my point again. Losing the code books didn't stop the Germans being successful invading France later that year and occupying it for four years. The biggest reason they lost France was because of a massive collaboration that funneled manpower and resources into an Allied invasion. The fate of the U-559 wouldn't change D-Day. Also, the Germans getting mowed down by the Soviets helps too, I hardly doubt the few weeks of advantage the Allies had when they decrypted the communication of U-Boats back in 1940 was a game changer.

So again, people just don't waste their own resources for stuff that is immaterial if compared to the big picture. If those code books were that important for the Germans, they would've wasted more resources implementing fail-safes. They had bigger fish to fry at that moment (Feb 1940) with the Finns, for example.

Actually, what I'm saying is that this gives them all the more reason to recover the power core, or failing that, render it useless.

You will really have to show us those lines talking about the Federation having a few starships. The Federation is a Post-Scarcity Society, there's no such thing as "we only have a few Starships". Maybe the line was referring to limited Starships in the region ? Again, if you think the Feds only have a few dozen ships, that's BSG not Trek.

Also, I don't understand why the ship was located inside Klingon territory.

Uh, first, it was already close to the Klingon border. Second, the Feds lost. Badly. Third, Kol wandered there quite easily so it's safe to assume that's already under Klingon control.

It takes a vivid imagination to argue that sentimentality trumps all that

Vivid imagination, really ? Most of the reasons why people get to kill each other is because they have feelings. Having feelings means you're susceptible in making decisions that endanger yourself and others. No training, brainwashing, etc. can change that. So if Saru has feelings, he's prone to do the same mistakes Humans do.

Information is not classified and encrypted only in times of war! You're incredibly naive.

It isn't, but the technology that guarantees efficient encryption comes during times of war. The biggest jumps in technologies that can be used to harm others always do come during wartime. That's why the Atomic Bomb was developed during WWII, not before it. If the Feds aren't warmongers, then they have no reason to improve technologies better researched during times of war. That's why they were researching the Mycelial Network in Discovery, to explore not to harm others.

That makes absolutely no sense at all! Where did you get the ridiculous idea that salvage and recovery is based on clairvoyance?

Because the Feds most correct assumption would be that the Klingons would also evacuate their destroyed ships. They couldn't predict the Klingons would stay inside their dead ships.

You actually thought all along that the Federation operated primarily as a peaceful and pacifist group?

Yes, that's the whole point of Star Trek, actually. Again, if you enjoy warmonger humans dwelling in the stars I think a franchise better suited for you would be something like Warhammer 40000. Trek is a direct product of 1960s anti-war movements, there's nothing we can do to change that.

Well, that is what a pacifist is. I think you're using the wrong term to describe the Feds. My understanding is that they combine scientific exploration with diplomacy and military defense.

Training for war and mounting military operations isn't "military defense". That's called provocation. I really doubt the Feds would do that in times of peace.

Where did you get the idea that one is either a "hippie explorer" or a sociopath? Can't you imagine characters who are between?

Really, if you want to see hippie explorer, then why not refer to these characters?

So you think that all the people who were engaged in hippie, pacifist and anti-war movements were like those characters from The Way to Eden ? What a narrow world view. That's why we call it counter-culture. You don't have to sing love songs and hug trees everyday to embrace values of the counter-culture. Hell, Gene was a cop and he embraced the counter-culture. Most people that did back then are just normal plain folks like you and me. When I say "hippie" I say an umbrella of values and ideas that date back to 60s Leftist and Progressive movements. Star Trek Federation characters are, or at least try to be, the embodiment of that.

And don't forget to talk about Lorca and other characters from STD.

Lorca and Landry aside, yeah, I think most DSC characters fill the hippie explorer archetype. They made terrible mistakes because of that archetype.That's the whole point of Discovery. Asking what happens when being a pacifist isn't enough, when using rationality isn't enough, when using understanding for other cultures isn't enough... When you can't just use an anthropology observation given by your Vulcan father to avoid a war. Discovery is when Star Trek values go wrong. So yeah, you can definitely have "hippie" characters who dwell in grey morality.

Of course, it is! How do you think they got the cloaking device working? Why do you think the mining sites were attacked? You've been watching another franchise all along!

Resource wars happen when you attack your enemy because you don't have resources enough. There's no indication that the Klingons lack Dilithium or other resources. They are attacking the Federation because of ideology, not because they need to survive.

If you want to subjugate an enemy morally you need to cripple their self-sufficiency of resources, obviously. That doesn't mean you need those resources for yourself. You just need to hurt the enemy.

My argument is based on common sense. You're the one who's been coming up with all sorts of ideas, that Saru brought along the 'scope because he's a "big boy" or that he used transporters or anti-grav devices, that Star Fleet had no reason to recover anything from the ship, and that all of these are so because they're all "hippie explorers." Good grief.

Common sense: Obsessing over a small detail that has an obvious explanation so you can claim a TV Series you hate has bad writing. Sounds right. I mean, we're living in the Alternative Facts Era, so it kinda fits.

So, what is the purpose of including that scene?

Flow. In the beginning of the episode Michael is still reminiscing about the past and doubting herself, so she refuses the will. After the events of the episode she realizes she still is useful. So she comes back and accepts the will. It's a metaphor for Michael beginning to accept her role onboard the Discovery.

I didn't say that it would be included at that moment. Reread what I wrote.

In any moment a flashback like the one you described would just be horrible TV, really.

 

[Psion]

We saw in "The Vulcan Hello" that this was a friendly, almost informal bridge crew. Any of the personnel stationed on the bridge might have grabbed that telescope during the evacuation out of misplaced sentimentality. To save some tiny piece of the captain they respected. Even if there are regulations against such mementos during an evacuation, I could easily see Saru stopping a crewman carrying the telescope, then reconsidering -- again out of sentimentality -- designating the telescope a valuable piece of Starfleet technology and letting the crewman pass.

Similarly, the dilithium processor could have been abandoned in place as non-sensitive tech, or simply forgotten. "I thought you got the dilithium processor!" The Shenzhou's crew had just been through a costly battle. The crew was injured, many were dead, and things would have been overlooked in anything less than the most thorough, carefully implemented evacuation. Yep, there's training. Yep there's discipline. Yep, someone could, and possibly did, get court-martialed for neglecting some artifacts. But the crew weren't automatons. They can make errors and that's all the explanation that's needed.

There's no plot hole here.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What we need to consider is what makes sense. We have no evidence showing that Burnham or Saru did not want the scope left behind or that Saru carried it to the escape pod. At the same time, we know from other shows that the first thing crew members look after are the lives of those who are helpless or their own, then retrieving or rendering useless (note the "or") anything that is critical for their military organization or side (such as encryption devices and ship logs), then anything that might be used by the enemy to their advantage (such as power cores)

Wait... we know that from other shows? When have we ever actually SEEN them put a priority on "retrieving or rendering useless" anything at all? As I've already pointed out, we have at least a DOZEN examples of starfleet straight up abandoning whole starships and not even giving a shit what happens to them after that. The only time they try to deny the enemy access to their ships and technology is when the enemy is specifically trying to use that technology against them right at that moment.

then any personal effects that is larger than what they can put in their pockets

I vividly recall Picard and Riker wandering around on the bridge of the Enterprise-D trying to find Picard's favorite book... what I DO NOT recall is their making sure to have wiped the computer core or stripped down any useable technology from the ship first. In fact, at least two Trek novels depict a Starfleet salvage team returning to the Enterprise-D half a year later to accomplish that job, and then it's implied to be a special case because the people on Veridian III are starting to dabble in rocketry and could be getting into spaceflight some day.

And in "Timeless" Starfleet apparently knew the location of Voyager's crash site, but felt it was more important to prevent its former officers from using it to alter the past than it was to go and clean up the wreck, hence USS Challenger doesn't bother to sanitize the Voyager's crash site at all and is singularly interested in intercepting the Delta Flyer.

I mean, unless you cam think of a more concrete example, I think you're arguing a contradiction with something that Starfleet has never actually done. I almost think you're confusing Starfleet with the UNSC's "Cole Protocol" or something.

As much as one wants to insist that people in battle and who have to deal with emergencies like abandoning ships are sentimental, it is highly likely that they are more sensible, especially given trained personnel in such organizations.

Considering they didn't even bother to abandon ship until WELL AFTER the battle was long over, it doesn't seem like they were in all that much of a hurry to begin with. The ship was disabled and without power, warp drive and impulse engines all dead, the ship running on just batteries and good intentions. They probably waited until their batteries ran out and life support was totally dead, at which point Saru said "Fuck it, we're leaving" and they piled into escape pods.

How long do the emergency batteries last on a starship? I don't actually know. Days, maybe? Possibly longer if they were being careful. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that they didn't abandon ship in the middle of a full blown emergency; the battle was over, T'Kuvma was dead, his ship was wrecked and powerless and the Klingon Fleet had run off to do its own thing. If their engines had been slightly less damaged, they wouldn't even bother with the escape pods, they would have just limped to the nearest starbase on impulse power.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Why did the Klingons ignore this system for six month when they know they have a technological advantage floating there in the sarcophagus ship?

Because they didn't think the cloak was much of an advantage. They probably thought it was a showy gimmick that had little strategic value at all. I doubt anyone in the Klingon military other than Kol ever understood its true potential. I doubt even Starfleet understood it until Kol started bitch slapping them left and right with it.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

You just proved my point again. Losing the code books didn't stop the Germans being successful invading France later that year and occupying it for four years.

I hardly doubt the few weeks of advantage the Allies had when they decrypted the communication of U-Boats back in 1940 was a game changer.

What on earth are you talking about? The Germans lost U-boat U-559 and it’s Enigma code books in 1942. The Germans successfully invaded France in 1940.

It’s common knowledge that the captured Enigma material they retrieved was immensely valuable and helped turn the tide of war in the Allies' favor.

 

[ralfy]

I wonder if either side would be willing to risk another possible ambush?

Or stage one.

 

[ralfy]

The transporter was still working when the Sarcophagus Ship was bombed because Saru had Michael transported back.

But that implies that the evacuation took place slowly, which means they would have had time to disable the power core.

When you don't have any arguments you accuse people of trolling you ? I was just pointing out how silly you sound claiming certain elements can only be present in Star Trek if they were already depicted before.

But everything I've raised so far are arguments. Also, I don't think I argued that certain events can only happen if they were depicted before. Rather, certain events may happen because they were depicted before.

You just proved my point again. Losing the code books didn't stop the Germans being successful invading France later that year and occupying it for four years. The biggest reason they lost France was because of a massive collaboration that funneled manpower and resources into an Allied invasion. The fate of the U-559 wouldn't change D-Day. Also, the Germans getting mowed down by the Soviets helps too, I hardly doubt the few weeks of advantage the Allies had when they decrypted the communication of U-Boats back in 1940 was a game changer.

Germany did not invade France after losing the code books. Enigma as part of Ultra helped in stopping Rommel in North Africa and determining Axis defenses in France prior to D-Day.

So again, people just don't waste their own resources for stuff that is immaterial if compared to the big picture. If those code books were that important for the Germans, they would've wasted more resources implementing fail-safes. They had bigger fish to fry at that moment (Feb 1940) with the Finns, for example.

The Germans didn't know that the code was broken.

You will really have to show us those lines talking about the Federation having a few starships. The Federation is a Post-Scarcity Society, there's no such thing as "we only have a few Starships". Maybe the line was referring to limited Starships in the region ? Again, if you think the Feds only have a few dozen ships, that's BSG not Trek.

Probably in the region, but that's what I remember. But that would have not mattered, as it is rational to scuttle what the enemy might find useful.

Uh, first, it was already close to the Klingon border. Second, the Feds lost. Badly. Third, Kol wandered there quite easily so it's safe to assume that's already under Klingon control.

Thus, it's not exactly in Klingon territory. The Feds did lose, but the Sacrophogus was stranded in the area for months, which implies that the Klingons had little control in the area.

Vivid imagination, really ? Most of the reasons why people get to kill each other is because they have feelings. Having feelings means you're susceptible in making decisions that endanger yourself and others. No training, brainwashing, etc. can change that. So if Saru has feelings, he's prone to do the same mistakes Humans do.

Feelings leading to killing others is not sentimentality.

Being prone to do something does not mean it is more likely. The fact that you refer to mistakes proves that, unless you believe that for this franchise characters making mistakes is more the norm than the exception.

It isn't, but the technology that guarantees efficient encryption comes during times of war. The biggest jumps in technologies that can be used to harm others always do come during wartime. That's why the Atomic Bomb was developed during WWII, not before it. If the Feds aren't warmongers, then they have no reason to improve technologies better researched during times of war. That's why they were researching the Mycelial Network in Discovery, to explore not to harm others.

And yet we have armed ships prior to war, which you now imply did not feel the need to protect information that they transmitted to each other. And why's that? Because they're hippies, right?

Because the Feds most correct assumption would be that the Klingons would also evacuate their destroyed ships. They couldn't predict the Klingons would stay inside their dead ships.

That's a ridiculous assumption, unless you are saying this because that's the only thing that reinforces your view that Starfleet personnel are hippies. That certainly explains why you keep referring to clairvoyance.

Yes, that's the whole point of Star Trek, actually. Again, if you enjoy warmonger humans dwelling in the stars I think a franchise better suited for you would be something like Warhammer 40000. Trek is a direct product of 1960s anti-war movements, there's nothing we can do to change that.

And yet the ships are armed.

Training for war and mounting military operations isn't "military defense". That's called provocation. I really doubt the Feds would do that in times of peace.

There's a reason why "military operations" and "military defense" have the word "military" in them. I'll let you figure out why.

So you think that all the people who were engaged in hippie, pacifist and anti-war movements were like those characters from The Way to Eden ? What a narrow world view. That's why we call it counter-culture. You don't have to sing love songs and hug trees everyday to embrace values of the counter-culture. Hell, Gene was a cop and he embraced the counter-culture. Most people that did back then are just normal plain folks like you and me. When I say "hippie" I say an umbrella of values and ideas that date back to 60s Leftist and Progressive movements. Star Trek Federation characters are, or at least try to be, the embodiment of that.

A hippie is a part of a counter-culture.

I'm guessing that you used the term to describe Trek because GR brought in interracial love, criticized events like the Vietnam War indirectly, etc. But the same franchise also had armed personnel in armed ships and worked with businesses such as mining groups to supply the fleet with resources. Those are part of mainstream societies, not counter-cultures.

Lorca and Landry aside, yeah, I think most DSC characters fill the hippie explorer archetype. They made terrible mistakes because of that archetype.That's the whole point of Discovery. Asking what happens when being a pacifist isn't enough, when using rationality isn't enough, when using understanding for other cultures isn't enough... When you can't just use an anthropology observation given by your Vulcan father to avoid a war. Discovery is when Star Trek values go wrong. So yeah, you can definitely have "hippie" characters who dwell in grey morality.

Completely the opposite, as clearly seen in STD and this very thread. I'll let you figure out why.

Resource wars happen when you attack your enemy because you don't have resources enough. There's no indication that the Klingons lack Dilithium or other resources. They are attacking the Federation because of ideology, not because they need to survive.

I wasn't referring to what causes resource wars.

If you want to subjugate an enemy morally you need to cripple their self-sufficiency of resources, obviously. That doesn't mean you need those resources for yourself. You just need to hurt the enemy.

That's what I was talking about. Now that you agree with me on that, you should now reconsider your view that the whole show is simply about some hippie archetype. Believe me, it's not just that. To find out by yourself, re-read what you wrote above and consider many other ways in which you can hurt the enemy. To help you along the way, I offer my previous posts.

Common sense: Obsessing over a small detail that has an obvious explanation so you can claim a TV Series you hate has bad writing. Sounds right. I mean, we're living in the Alternative Facts Era, so it kinda fits.

I wasn't obsessing over a small detail: you were. I'm merely responding to each point that you raised. But if you want more examples of bad writing in STD, then read the other threads about each episode.

Flow. In the beginning of the episode Michael is still reminiscing about the past and doubting herself, so she refuses the will. After the events of the episode she realizes she still is useful. So she comes back and accepts the will. It's a metaphor for Michael beginning to accept her role onboard the Discovery.

It was not for her to decide whether or not she should see herself as useful given the fact that she was sentenced to life in prison and was released from it only because Lorca found a use for her.

In any moment a flashback like the one you described would just be horrible TV, really.

Well, there's news that Yeoh is coming back to the show.

 

[ralfy]

We saw in "The Vulcan Hello" that this was a friendly, almost informal bridge crew. Any of the personnel stationed on the bridge might have grabbed that telescope during the evacuation out of misplaced sentimentality. To save some tiny piece of the captain they respected. Even if there are regulations against such mementos during an evacuation, I could easily see Saru stopping a crewman carrying the telescope, then reconsidering -- again out of sentimentality -- designating the telescope a valuable piece of Starfleet technology and letting the crewman pass.

From what I remember, it was placed in a container together with a will, to be given to the mutineer.

Similarly, the dilithium processor could have been abandoned in place as non-sensitive tech, or simply forgotten. "I thought you got the dilithium processor!" The Shenzhou's crew had just been through a costly battle. The crew was injured, many were dead, and things would have been overlooked in anything less than the most thorough, carefully implemented evacuation. Yep, there's training. Yep there's discipline. Yep, someone could, and possibly did, get court-martialed for neglecting some artifacts. But the crew weren't automatons. They can make errors and that's all the explanation that's needed.

There's no plot hole here.

And yet they managed not to overlook the telescope? Or the telescope with the container and the will?

 

[ralfy]

Wait... we know that from other shows? When have we ever actually SEEN them put a priority on "retrieving or rendering useless" anything at all? As I've already pointed out, we have at least a DOZEN examples of starfleet straight up abandoning whole starships and not even giving a shit what happens to them after that. The only time they try to deny the enemy access to their ships and technology is when the enemy is specifically trying to use that technology against them right at that moment.

Well, doesn't that also imply that they also left the telescope?

I vividly recall Picard and Riker wandering around on the bridge of the Enterprise-D trying to find Picard's favorite book... what I DO NOT recall is their making sure to have wiped the computer core or stripped down any useable technology from the ship first. In fact, at least two Trek novels depict a Starfleet salvage team returning to the Enterprise-D half a year later to accomplish that job, and then it's implied to be a special case because the people on Veridian III are starting to dabble in rocketry and could be getting into spaceflight some day.

Perhaps when they abandon ship, there's a ship-wide mechanism that disables critical components, similar to what a car immobilizer does. Of course, that would have made the power core useless.

And in "Timeless" Starfleet apparently knew the location of Voyager's crash site, but felt it was more important to prevent its former officers from using it to alter the past than it was to go and clean up the wreck, hence USS Challenger doesn't bother to sanitize the Voyager's crash site at all and is singularly interested in intercepting the Delta Flyer.

It's not so much a matter of sanitizing a crash site but to prevent anyone from using particular devices, and one can imagine that taking place automatically as the crew abandons ship. That might not even mean recovery but simply disabling or using booby traps.

I mean, unless you cam think of a more concrete example, I think you're arguing a contradiction with something that Starfleet has never actually done. I almost think you're confusing Starfleet with the UNSC's "Cole Protocol" or something.

All I'm using is common sense. If the crew had the discipline to bring along a telescope of their dead commander (plus a container and a will with instructions to give them to the mutineer?), then they very likely had the discipline to simply disable a power core. Or a team would have done as they recovered the telescope (or is it a telescope in a container with a will and instructions to give them to the mutineer?).

Considering they didn't even bother to abandon ship until WELL AFTER the battle was long over, it doesn't seem like they were in all that much of a hurry to begin with. The ship was disabled and without power, warp drive and impulse engines all dead, the ship running on just batteries and good intentions. They probably waited until their batteries ran out and life support was totally dead, at which point Saru said "Fuck it, we're leaving" and they piled into escape pods.

Why would they wait?

How long do the emergency batteries last on a starship? I don't actually know. Days, maybe? Possibly longer if they were being careful. But the one thing that's abundantly clear is that they didn't abandon ship in the middle of a full blown emergency; the battle was over, T'Kuvma was dead, his ship was wrecked and powerless and the Klingon Fleet had run off to do its own thing. If their engines had been slightly less damaged, they wouldn't even bother with the escape pods, they would have just limped to the nearest starbase on impulse power.

Or hours? Or given the level of damage, perhaps minutes?

 

[O_Kav]

What on earth are you talking about? The Germans lost U-boat U-559 and it’s Enigma code books in 1942. The Germans successfully invaded France in 1940.

You're right. I confused the year it was laid down with the year it was destroyed. So @ralfy 's argument makes even less sense. In October 1942 the Germans were locked down in massive battles with the Allies in North Africa. The Germans and Soviets were in the middle of the Battle of Stalingrad, by that time the Germans were still winning it. They had even more colossal fish to fry, I still don't know why they would waste resources to protect U-Boats with some codes when they had so many other important things to do.

It’s common knowledge that the captured Enigma material they retrieved was immensely valuable and helped turn the tide of war in the Allies' favor.

Hmmm... If they never cracked those codes, the Nazis would've won WWII ? Sure, it was an important thing. It may have saved a lot of lives and that's good. But I really doubt the codes were the reason why the Soviets pushed back after Stalingrad and basically won the War, for example. At the end of the day raw things like manpower and resources matter more. The Nazis lost in the Eastern Front because they lacked that. Not because they lacked codes.

But that implies that the evacuation took place slowly, which means they would have had time to disable the power core.

And disabling the core implies that the Federation cares about disabling power cores after evacuating ships. They don't.

Also, I don't think I argued that certain events can only happen if they were depicted before.

You said they can't use anti-gravs to move personal effects around while evacuating the ship, because everytime we saw people evacuating ships in Star Trek they were empty handed.

Germany did not invade France after losing the code books. Enigma as part of Ultra helped in stopping Rommel in North Africa and determining Axis defenses in France prior to D-Day.

See my response to @Captain of the USS Averof above. I confused the years. Still, North Africa was lost to the Germans because the Nazis couldn't funnel resources and manpower enough there. They were fighting two very distant fronts, remember ? I think it's just silly when people use side details like codes or things like the great man theory to explain entire wars. Just look both Battles of El Alamein, for example. The Allies had the superiority in numbers on those.

The Germans didn't know that the code was broken.

No, but they could've wasted more resources beforehand trying to protect those codes. There's a hundred ways they could've implemented fail safes but they didn't care. They were more concerned with bigger things.

But that would have not mattered, as it is rational to scuttle what the enemy might find useful.

People tried to explain to you already, scuttling makes sense when you want to avoid your ship being used against your crew or someone capturing them. Like you just admitted, the Federation had no shortage of Starships. They couldn't care less about these things.

Thus, it's not exactly in Klingon territory. The Feds did lose, but the Sacrophogus was stranded in the area for months, which implies that the Klingons had little control in the area.

They took some time to recover the Sarcophagus Ship because that was an area already under their control and that had no risk of going back to the Federation. They concerned themselves with the war first and then went there to retrieve the cloaking technology. If they "had little control" over the area, why Kol wandered there so easily, with no major challenges ?

Feelings leading to killing others is not sentimentality.

People acting of their own passions can do very horrible stuff, endanger others and commit terrible mistakes. Are you sure... You're a fellow Human ? Because that's Humanity 101.

Being prone to do something does not mean it is more likely.

"Being prone to fight silly wars over nothing doesn't mean these wars are likely" said every person before every major war on Human history.

unless you believe that for this franchise characters making mistakes is more the norm than the exception.

What ? The franchise is about Humans and Humans being faulty when compared to non-sentimental species like the Vulcans is a major theme throughout Star Trek...

which you now imply did not feel the need to protect information that they transmitted to each other.

Yeah, the Federation has it's own NSA. Sure, that's so Star Trek right ? I bet those planets who are interested in joining the Federation get so thrilled by discovering that Federation is sending back home so many encrypted information about them. One thing is encrypting small info, what you are implying here the Federation having top of the line encrypting tech that is generally only common in war time or when you feel the need of being a little bit Orwellian. The whole point of Star Trek is that this is not an Orwellian future.

That's a ridiculous assumption, unless you are saying this because that's the only thing that reinforces your view that Starfleet personnel are hippies. That certainly explains why you keep referring to clairvoyance.

I mean, you were the one implying the Shenzhou had ESPers onboard who could predict the Klingons would not evacuate.

And yet the ships are armed.

So what ? Are you implying gun owners are psychopaths ready to kill everyone just because they have guns ? Guns are ultimately a self-defense tool, it doesn't talk about your character and it doesn't stop you from believing in peace.

There's a reason why "military operations" and "military defense" have the word "military" in them. I'll let you figure out why.

Implementing stuff that can take down missiles and having anti-aircraft batteries on your own territory is military defense. Military operations are things like military exercises next to enemy territory, proxy conflicts, interventions, etc. Just because something has "military" in the name it doesn't mean it's bad.

But the same franchise also had armed personnel in armed ships and worked with businesses such as mining groups to supply the fleet with resources. Those are part of mainstream societies, not counter-cultures.

So hippies, yippies, yuppies, whoever you call those related to counter-culture movements, are against mining and self-defense? That doesn't make any sense. Material conditions and Culture are two separate spheres. You can still mine, defend yourself, etc. and believe in a certain set of cultural values.

Completely the opposite, as clearly seen in STD and this very thread. I'll let you figure out why.

Stamets entire life is centered around mushrooms and their interactions with physics, Burnham spent her entire life trying to join a Vulcan Expeditionary Group, Tilly wants to be a Starship Captain and Saru wants to be as great as a Federation Founder like Archer. Those are very Star Trek-ish characters. Those characters are characters who had "improving themselves", like Picard said, as their main goals. Self-improvement is a very 1960s New Age thing. The only characters concerned with mundane things seem to be Lorca and Landry. See how everyone else is thrilled by having a Space Whale onboard and Lorca couldn't give two shits about it.

I wasn't referring to what causes resource wars.

You implied things like Dilithium Cores captured from the Feds are essential for the Klingons when they actually are self sufficient on Dilithium.

Now that you agree with me on that, you should now reconsider your view that the whole show is simply about some hippie archetype. Believe me, it's not just that.

If anything, this proves my point even more. The Klingons wanted to hurt the Federation morally. The Klingons are the enemies, remember ? They aren't supposed to have beautiful progressive ideals like the Feds. They were the ones attacking Federation Dilithium Mines, not the other way around. If the Feds weren't a bunch of Leftist Space Explorers they would be the ones coming up with the idea of attacking Klingon Dilithium Mines first. The Federation is not fighting a war of expansion, annexation and occupation. They are fighting a war of self-defense. I hardly doubt those Admirals salivate with the idea of occupying Qo'nos and implementing a puppet government there. Lorca probably does, but that's the point of his character. The Feds just want to defend their coalition and go back to exploring strange new worlds.

I wasn't obsessing over a small detail: you were. I'm merely responding to each point that you raised. But if you want more examples of bad writing in STD, then read the other threads about each episode.

Oh, but I do. And it's always the same stuff that you're doing here. If the small detail has an easy explanation like "the evacuees took the thing with them", people who hate-watch Discovery come up with weird fan fictions to explain how the entire show is plagued with plot holes and that this time Star Trek is definitely dead. That's basically it. It has been hard for some people to accept that after some years we finally have a Star Trek series with tidy writing again, so they need to come up with "Han Solo shot first" scenarios to dispel that.

It was not for her to decide whether or not she should see herself as useful given the fact that she was sentenced to life in prison and was released from it only because Lorca found a use for her.

She could've sat on her ass and do nothing like she was planning to do when she first refused Lorca's proposal. So she definitely had control over being useful or not.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

At the end of the day raw things like manpower and resources matter more.

Exactly this. Resources matter. That’s why you never leave any resources for the enemy. You never leave anything to the enemy period! You either destroy it yourself or you boobytrap it so you can kill as many of the enemy you can when they inevitably come to search/salvage/retrieve it.

 

[O_Kav]

Exactly this. Resources matter. That’s why you never leave any resources for the enemy. You never leave anything to the enemy period! You either destroy it yourself or you boobytrap it so you can kill as many of the enemy you can when they inevitably come to search/salvage/retrieve it.

I meant the raw stuff. I meant the coal from the Saar. Iron from Norway. Oil from Romania. The resources that matter. They weren't enough to counter the resources the Soviet Union already had before the war. The Russians in five years went from a Rural country to an Industrial power exactly because of that. They had the upper hand in resources like Iron, Oil, Natural Gas, Cement, Coal, etc. since the beginning. That's why the Germans lost. Not because the Germans failed to salvage gasoline from abandoned Soviet Tanks. I mean, even when the Soviets tried to not leave anything behind they were more concerned about destroying important things like bridges, factories, crops, etc. They weren't that concerned with the ammo Private Ivan forgot somewhere or the leftover fuel from some vehicle they had to abandon.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

even when the Soviets tried to not leave anything behind they were more concerned about destroying important things like bridges, factories, crops, etc. They weren't that concerned with the ammo Private Ivan forgot somewhere or the leftover fuel from some vehicle they had to abandon.

And yet they absolutely were concerned about leaving anything to the enemy. Especially leftover ammo or fuel from some abandoned vehicle. Because in war it was certain that what they couldn’t destroy they would have to face it...