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The age of the antihero

Hmmm.. And here I thought the drama was handling a situation as a crew, to do the right thing, and ignore those based impulses while solving issues. That's what I got from both TOS and TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT series
Not, from TOS, no. TNG and following, certainly. That's were the evolved humanity sensibility came from, including not mourning over death, or being in conflict with other humans. Which is part of why some writers struggled in the first couple of seasons of TNG. GR's box of humanity was difficult to create drama within.

If the story is how humanity is already evolved, then what does that teach us? Those base impulses are there and require constant battling, not that they can be outgrown.
 
The whole deal with Burnham killing Tkuvma being murder makes no sense to me anyway. It was combat with shots fired in anger. He'd just killed the only other Fed in the room and she was surrounded by overwhelming odds, and transporters are notoriously unreliable at key plot points. She might as well have started trench brooming the entire bridge with the phaser set to kill. She had no idea how long she'd be stuck there if the situation further deteriorated.
This is the whole stupidity of it all. Georgiou and Burnham were the aggressors, they went into enemy territory to do harm. To at the very least take away T'Kuvma's freedom. They were not the victims in this scenario. T'Kuvma actually was! He was defending himself from them. They took the war to someone who fought back and killed one of them. By the same token Burnham meant to kill T'Kuvma. At whatever stage she set her phaser to kill it doesn't matter, she wanted him dead.
 
This is the whole stupidity of it all. Georgiou and Burnham were the aggressors, they went into enemy territory to do harm. To at the very least take away T'Kuvma's freedom. They were not the victims in this scenario. T'Kuvma actually was! He was defending himself from them. They took the war to someone who fought back and killed one of them. By the same token Burnham meant to kill T'Kuvma. At whatever stage she set her phaser to kill it doesn't matter, she wanted him dead.
Nope indeed.
 
The test results do matter if they were not reflective of the truth. Of course they do, it is what his 'clearance' was based on. Cornwell latched onto his duplicity about the same time he pulled a phaser on her. That's what damaged people do, they act out and they can be dangerous to those around them.

This is the same man that has captained his crew into the middle of nowhere instead of taking them safely back to base, where one is to believe cooler heads prevail. In my opinion the bastard was running.
 
Because it was the Klingons who trespassed into Federation territory with the intent of deliberately provoking a war in the first place, an end in which they had already succeeded by this point! How could you miss that?
How could anyone miss that it was Georgiou and Burnham who booby trapped the dead, beamed themselves amongst the enemy and tried to take one of them captive? They put themselves there. Burnham killed one of them. That scenario was of their making and from Burnham and Georgiou's aggression.
 
Wasn't star trek about an aspirational humanity, one who had grown from moral ambiguity and strife, whose sole purpose was the betterment of mankind's understanding? STD says nope. Human nature is still a mess hundreds of years and hundreds of planets and species later. Wow, now that's not a depressing dark and species self loathing production if I've ever seen one. Makes me want to be reincarnated as a Dolphin. The show is sick. I'd love some healthy optimism rather then a constant commentary on the plight of humanity.

Most of humanity today is morally ambiguous, sure but Star Trek is supposed to be the future. A sure moral goal. A bright beacon of hope, that despite today's issues, our future can be like that. Traveling the stars with other species, an aspirational goal that lifts us up, outside of the everyday. STD puts the sad depressing everyday in place of the hopeful and declares itself relevant. Who cares! I wanted escapism and optimism. I get none from STD.
Did you really watch the show?
Star Trek ENT - Terra Prime existed because during a traumatic time for Earth, some humans needed somebody to project their prejudice on. Sound famaliar ?
This side of Paradise - McCoy: thats the 2nd time man has been thrown out of Paradise
Kirk - Man was not meant to live in Paradise
Balance of Terror
Kirk - We have the right!
Organian - To wage war Captain?
The Enterprise incident - the racist Starfleet officer's attitude to Spock
STUC - Kirk,the hero wishing death on all the Klingons - Let them die!

I would bet the first time humans (not working in Starfleet) saw a blue Andorian on Earth, they would freak out and fail every Guess who is coming to dinner test


Don't equate the first few seasons of TNG to the whole franchise.
 
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How could anyone miss that it was Georgiou and Burnham who booby trapped the dead, beamed themselves amongst the enemy and tried to take one of them captive? They put themselves there. Burnham killed one of them. That scenario was of their making and from Burnham and Georgiou's aggression.
How did they instigate the Klingon aggression? T'Kumva was planning on attacking, no matter what. Countering the attack started by the Klingons is a proportionate response to their attack.

What were they supposed to do? Allow the destruction of their fleet and not respond? Die well?
 
How did they instigate the Klingon aggression? T'Kumva was planning on attacking, no matter what. Countering the attack started by the Klingons is a proportionate response to their attack.

What were they supposed to do? Allow the destruction of their fleet and not respond? Die well?
They went to the enemy, right? It was Klingon turf, the Sarcophagus is their Ship of the Dead. They were trying to capture T'Kuvma, it was a plan. Stupid plan but it was instigated by Georgiou and Burnham. We are still talking about Burnham killing T'Kuvma and how that went down. It was because she put herself in that situation.
 
This is the whole stupidity of it all. Georgiou and Burnham were the aggressors, they went into enemy territory to do harm. To at the very least take away T'Kuvma's freedom. They were not the victims in this scenario. T'Kuvma actually was! He was defending himself from them. They took the war to someone who fought back and killed one of them. By the same token Burnham meant to kill T'Kuvma. At whatever stage she set her phaser to kill it doesn't matter, she wanted him dead.
The enemy was in their territory. If a German ship invaded USA waters during WW2 you can bet that any American boarding party is not going on there for a beer festival.
 
They went to the enemy, right? It was Klingon turf, the Sarcophagus is their Ship of the Dead. They were trying to capture T'Kuvma, it was a plan. Stupid plan but it was instigated by Georgiou and Burnham. We are still talking about Burnham killing T'Kuvma and how that went down. It was because she put herself in that situation.
Yes, they were trying to capture an enemy leader and stop a full blown war from erupting, a war the Klingons wanted to happen. As Starfleet officers, Georgiou and Burnham had a duty to try and stop it.

They were responding to aggressive intend and trying to stop a war. I don't see that as "anti-heroic" at all.
 
The enemy was in their territory. If a German ship invaded USA waters during WW2 you can bet that any American boarding party is not going on there for a beer festival.
Actually I meant the Sarcophagus, as that is where Burnham killed T'Kuvma.
 
They went to the enemy, right? It was Klingon turf, the Sarcophagus is their Ship of the Dead.
No it was not Klingon turf. That was an enemy ship that had deliberately trespassed into Federation territory and taken overt hostile action which had already resulted directly in the destruction of the Europa and the inflicting of massive casualties, and had not retreated thereafter. It was a totally legitimate target of attack, whether with the goal of taking its commander captive or even simply inflicting reciprocal casualties. Even then, they only stunned the Klingons who didn't directly attack them once they were aboard. Burnham only killed T'Kuvma when he was in the process of killing Georgiou. If T'Kuvma had laid down his arms and surrendered, and then she killed him, that would have been a totally different story. He didn't. He was an an enemy combatant engaging in hostile action. A legitimate target.

The booby trapping thing (again, not Burnham's idea) might be a thornier issue, but it should be pointed out that this isn't actually against the Geneva Protocol of 1928 later mentioned as still being in effect, and we don't know what other agreements/laws concerning such tactics might or might not be.
 
Yes, they were trying to capture an enemy leader and stop a full blown war from erupting, a war the Klingons wanted to happen. As Starfleet officers, Georgiou and Burnham had a duty to try and stop it.

They were responding to aggressive intend and trying to stop a war. I don't see that as "anti-heroic" at all.
The point is whether their actions were justifiable or not (booby trapping the dead... yeah, might leave that), it was their actions still. Their plan. They put themselves there and like it or not, they were the aggressors in that plan. They wanted to take the enemy and instead killed. I get it is war but why pretend that Georgiou and Burnham were not actively responsible for what they did.
 
He was an an enemy combatant engaging in hostile action. A legitimate target.

The booby trapping thing (again, not Burnham's idea) might be a thornier issue, but it should be pointed out that this isn't actually against the Geneva Protocol of 1928 later mentioned as still being in effect, and we don't know what other agreements/laws concerning such tactics might or might not be.
T'Kuvma (enemy or not) was defending himself. Two Federation officers were on his ship trying to take him. What was he supposed to do? Of course he saw it as an attack.
 
T'Kuvma (enemy or not) was defending himself. Two Federation officers were on his ship trying to take him. What was he supposed to do? Of course he saw it as an attack.
And his actions were not provocative? What were Burnham and Georgiou supposed to do? It's not that they are not responsible for their actions but their actions were appropriate for the situation and justifiable in an act of war.
 
This is the whole stupidity of it all. Georgiou and Burnham were the aggressors, they went into enemy territory to do harm. To at the very least take away T'Kuvma's freedom. They were not the victims in this scenario. T'Kuvma actually was!

Completely wrong. Klingons had knowingly invaded Federation space and acted in a hostile manner.
 
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