The 14th amendment

[Angela 0077]

Well in Australia at the moment we are being bombarded by boat poeple.

From Diffent countrys and these people do not come here the right way like some who want to be Australian citizens

We house thses people on a island called Christmas island and now it is over flowing with thses poeple.

now the goverment here is sending someof the boat people to Western Australia.

I do agree that poeple if they want to live in a country that they come the right way.

My mums father came from England and he never became a citizen of this country but he was able to get away with it until his death.

On the subject of children being called citizens of diiffent countrys sometimes this happens if you are on holiday and meet a bloke smiles

 

[Davros]

Darkwing, we've already had this argument and you lost it then and you're not going to win it now.

 

[RJDiogenes]

So you've dug up the corpses of the members of the 40th Congress and interviewed them?

The debates over the Amendment are on record, and the opinions of the Congress differ; there is no clear intent to go by.

On the contrary, the prime author of the amendment made his position EXPLICITLY clear in the record, and has been quoted.

It doesn't matter. It was voted on by a lot more than one person.

 

[Davros]

The debates over the Amendment are on record, and the opinions of the Congress differ; there is no clear intent to go by.

On the contrary, the prime author of the amendment made his position EXPLICITLY clear in the record, and has been quoted.

It doesn't matter. It was voted on by a lot more than one person.

And the supreme court has also ruled on this.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Do you think it's right, that children of illegal immigrants born here are automatically made US citizens? Should we make people US citizens simply because they happen to be born on US soil? Shouldn't there be SOME tie to the US before we bestow US citizenship, and all that goes with it on someone? A woman from anywhere in the world could be visiting the US on vacation, and just happen to deliver her baby here... boom, US citizen, entitled to a free education, welfare, ect. Personally, I think it's nuts. The 14th amendment was created to protect the rights of newly freed slaves, all well and good, but today it is being exploited by people who come here to have their children just so they can reap the benefits and hand outs that us taxpayers provide.

And before you call me a racist, a bigot, or a Nazi, I am all for anyone who really wants to be a US citizen. Anyone who wants to come here legally, and give up all allegiances to their homeland for the US, is welcome in my book.

It's funny. I think in suggesting that the children of illegal immigrants that are born here should be considered US Citizens, we open the BIG can of worms of tearing families apart during deportation.

The parents are sent back to Mexico--but the children are not, because they're US Citizens, and therefore can't be deported!

Even for a right-wing nutjob like myself, that's cold.


Now as to the "subject to the juristiction thereof" clause--what exactly does that mean?

In a rational universe, it would mean exactly what conservatives like myself have been demanding. However...it doesn't seem to work that way, anymore. For proof of this, look at the current debates about children of illegals--and, suprise, about tearing families apart.


No. The "Born" clause of the 14th was written for a specific purpose. And that purpose has been outdated for near of 150 years. It should be re-defined (by constitutuinal amendment, if necessary) as children of at least one US Citizen. Gets rid of that problem.

 

[Davros]

It's funny. I think in suggesting that the children of illegal immigrants that are born here should be considered US Citizens, we open the BIG can of worms of tearing families apart during deportation.

The parents are sent back to Mexico--but the children are not, because they're US Citizens, and therefore can't be deported!

The baby can leave with it's parents without being deported. US citizens are allowed to leave the country and come back.

Even for a right-wing nutjob like myself, that's cold.

Because you don't seem to understand the situation.

Now as to the "subject to the juristiction thereof" clause--what exactly does that mean?

Every one of those words is in the dictionary. Look them up.

In a rational universe, it would mean exactly what conservatives like myself have been demanding.

If that were so you wouldn't have been calling for deregulation and war time tax cuts.

However...it doesn't seem to work that way, anymore. For proof of this, look at the current debates about children of illegals--and, suprise, about tearing families apart.

no reason for famillies to be torn apart for the reason I cited above.

No. The "Born" clause of the 14th was written for a specific purpose. And that purpose has been outdated for near of 150 years. It should be re-defined (by constitutuinal amendment, if necessary) as children of at least one US Citizen. Gets rid of that problem.

But there is no problem now.

 

[Misfit Toy]

The records are quite clear.

"The records" != law. You fail to recognize this simple fact.

 

[propita]

Now as to the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause--what exactly does that mean?

Every one of those words is in the dictionary. Look them up.

Actually, that would be a legal term of art. It likely has been used in many other documents and would have a consistent meaning across all of the documents. This is not necessarily the same meaning as in a non-legal dictionary.

I believe in this context it is a second requirement. The first requirement is that the person be born or naturalized in the United States. The second is that the person must be subject to the legal jurisdiction of the United States. Non-citizens are subject to US legal jurisdiction, too, with some exceptions.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The amendment clearly states that anybody born here who is not the child of a diplomat is a citizen. Just because you are terrified of spanish speaking brown people is no reason to change things. That you would think that these babies are a threat to our soverignty is laughable.

No, it does NOT.

I quote AGAIN:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.”

Children of foreign nationals (legally OR illegally) are NOT "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and therefore CANNOT be citizens.

Neither are Native Americans, for that matter, since they are members of their Nation (tribe) under the law.

This is explicitly clear from the words of the Amendment Authors and offerers, as presented in the appropriate congressional record.

Actually, subject to jurisdiction just means they are subject to US laws. Immigrants (both legal and illegal) are subject to US jurisdiction. Native Americans are not. They are basically considered semi-independent nations inside the US. While we have made laws for them in the past, most things are done through treaties. To make up for that, we don't tax them. Immigrants are not nations, they are just non-citizens who are still subject to US jurisdiction.

 

[Squiggy]

Neither are Native Americans, for that matter, since they are members of their Nation (tribe) under the law.

Indian Citizenship Act of 1924

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I will point out that my comments were referring to Native Americans when the 14th amendment was ratified (and how they differed from immigrants).

 

[TheBrew]

Neither are Native Americans, for that matter, since they are members of their Nation (tribe) under the law.

Indian Citizenship Act of 1924

How can you do research when you had the greatest burger ever?

I haven't been able to do any work all morning.

It is my happy thought.

 

[Shaw]

I'm not sure what the issue is, but the text read as follows...

Fourteenth Amendment (excerpt):
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
-July 9, 1868​

As for intent, Lady Liberty tells me all I need to know about why that amendment should stand and why our country is so great.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

-Emma Lazarus, 1883​

I don't think there are any words that I could add that could express it that well.





Of course the only people who are concern with this are more concern with excluding others than any real cost to the country. They are trying to keep "them" out, ignoring the fact that in this country we are "them".

And we are stronger for it.

 

[Chaos Descending]

So what? Those court cases are incorrect on the facts of the intent of the amendment authors, which are the supreme controlling arbiter of it's effects.

No. The Supreme Court of the United States is the supreme controlling arbiter of its effects.

Bad court decisions are NOT "settled issues", any more than Dred Scott or "separate but equal" were "settled issues".

All SCOTUS decisions are "settled issues" until someone can come up with a real good reason for SCOTUS to reverse a previous SCOTUS ruling.

Look up stare decisis some time.

EDIT: Oops looks like I was a little late to this party!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I'm not sure what the issue is, but the text read as follows...

Fourteenth Amendment (excerpt):
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
-July 9, 1868​

As for intent, Lady Liberty tells me all I need to know about why that amendment should stand and why our country is so great.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

-Emma Lazarus, 1883​

I don't think there are any words that I could add that could express it that well.





Of course the only people who are concern with this are more concern with excluding others than any real cost to the country. They are trying to keep "them" out, ignoring the fact that in this country we are "them".

And we are stronger for it.

Looks like we found a subject we can agree on.

The people pushing against the notion of "anchor babies" are living in the same fantasy world where it's feasible to round up and deport over 12 million people and militarize a 1900-mile border.

These people are here, they're having kids who are growing up here, and the best thing we can do is try to assimilate them and make them part of our nation. Efforts to exclude and alienate them will only come back to bite us later.

 

[Kail]

Of course children born here should be citizens. to even question it is absurd. Even if the parents came here illegally the baby broke no law and punishing them for the wrongdoing of another is unjust. Seeing how the only babies people are worried about seem to be hispanic, it is hard to see people who wish to void their rights as anything but racist.

And there it is, I'm a racist because I feel people who break the law, and come here illegally, should not be rewarded by making their children citizens. How is it a punishment not to be made a citizen? Because you can not get a free education on my dime? I don't care what race you are, if you get in the country without documentation, you are BREAKING THE LAW, and deserve no benefits. Come here the right way, register, give up all allegiance to any other country, PAY YOUR TAXES, and I welcome all peoples with open arms.

 

[Shaw]

Because you can not get a free education on my dime?

They can do it on mine then. Problem solved.

Children in this country don't have to serve out the sentences of their parents... if their parents brake the law, the children don't inherit those crimes.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Of course children born here should be citizens. to even question it is absurd. Even if the parents came here illegally the baby broke no law and punishing them for the wrongdoing of another is unjust. Seeing how the only babies people are worried about seem to be hispanic, it is hard to see people who wish to void their rights as anything but racist.

And there it is, I'm a racist because I feel people who break the law, and come here illegally, should not be rewarded by making their children citizens. How is it a punishment not to be made a citizen? Because you can not get a free education on my dime? I don't care what race you are, if you get in the country without documentation, you are BREAKING THE LAW, and deserve no benefits. Come here the right way, register, give up all allegiance to any other country, PAY YOUR TAXES, and I welcome all peoples with open arms.

No one called you a racist. Why not try arguing WITHOUT the strawman?

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm not sure what the issue is, but the text read as follows...

Fourteenth Amendment (excerpt):
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
-July 9, 1868
​

As for intent, Lady Liberty tells me all I need to know about why that amendment should stand and why our country is so great.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

-Emma Lazarus, 1883
​

I don't think there are any words that I could add that could express it that well.





Of course the only people who are concern with this are more concern with excluding others than any real cost to the country. They are trying to keep "them" out, ignoring the fact that in this country we are "them".

And we are stronger for it.

Let me clear up a common misconception about us on the right....

We are NOT against immigration as a whole. That is a myth and a straw man that is personally offensive and completely irrational.

America is a nation of immigrants. No one in his right mind disagrees with that. (And in case you're wondering...no, Patrick J. Buchanann doesn't disagree with that, either. He does tread a very fine line, though...as he's notorious for doing....)

Our problem IS...read carefully, now...

America is ALSO a nation of LAWS. Laws are laws...they are meant to be followed--not dismissed because you don't "feel" like it.

There is, believe it or not, a process for which would-be immigrants can come into America legally, without fear of arrest or deportation.

Is that process complicated, and at times completely bizzare? Absolutely! Which is why we should focus on that for "comprehensive immigration reform", rather than rewarding those who violate our laws because they want to come in the "easy" way.

(No...I'm not accusing anyone here of supporting amnesty. I'm just bringing it up for dramatic emphasis....)

Welcome them in with open arms, YES--but also expect and demand that they observe our laws.

And that's my $0.02.

 

[Shaw]

Our problem IS...read carefully, now...

Are you suggesting that there is a time that I haven't read carefully? If you actually have valid points, then you shouldn't require the use of a pejorative in this discussion.

America is ALSO a nation of LAWS. Laws are laws...they are meant to be followed--not dismissed because you don't "feel" like it.

There is, believe it or not, a process for which would-be immigrants can come into America legally, without fear of arrest or deportation...


Welcome them in with open arms, YES--but also expect and demand that they observe our laws.

And that's my $0.02.

Well, lets be clear then... everyone in the United States has the same rights, whether they are citizens or not. The Constitution applies equally to all.

Thus illegal aliens have the same rights as you or I.

So we are basically back to these people breaking the law, and are therefore only subject to the penalties prescribed by those laws... but just like anyone else who breaks laws in this country, their rights are just as protected.

And as I said before, only those breaking those laws are subject to those penalties. Their children are not.



Or we could look at it from a Trek point of view...

Kirk: Look at these three words written larger than the rest... with a special pride never written before or since --
Tall words proudly saying... "We the people".
That which you called Ee'd Plebnista was not written for chiefs or kings or warriors or the rich and powerful... but for all the people!
Down the centuries, you have slurred the meaning of the words "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity... do ordain and establish this constitution".
These words and the words that follow were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well!

Cloud William: The Kohms?

Kirk: They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing! Do you understand?​

Gotta love Star Trek.