That Bowl of Jumbalya

[mrs260]

Corran Horn said:

I think it's as good a take on it as any. My problem with such a scenario (working simply because you enjoy it) is who enjoys cleaning bathrooms? Who likes picking up trash? Who works in civil waste extraction? (nobody can be ordered to do it, like in Starfleet)

I guess the answer to some of those is, they've been solved through technology. I always figured (like you did) that Joseph Sisko cooked food and ran a restaurant because he enjoyed it, and he got 'paid' by seeing people enjoy his food and his restaurant. As for his suppliers, I'm sure there are people who'd enjoy fishing, farming, etc. His waiters...not sure about that one.

On the "who likes cleaning bathrooms" front... I could say, "I do!" I'm a janitor and I enjoy it--I contribute to my community instead of stagnating on disability. But I do take your point--who does the unsavory or boring jobs that nobody actually wants?

I covered it in two ways in my hypothesis. First, like Starfleet, large companies would still have heirarchies of some sort: you have to do well at entry-level jobs in order to earn promotions and/or gain experience in the field you're pursuing. Second, some people want to contribute to society but either aren't capable of or don't wish to do anything more complicated than cleaning or delivering pizza or something.

 

[exodus]

Tralis said:
^
I'd like to point out that making a paradox real turned Janeway into a lizard. Similarly Tuvok has three or four different ages and birthdays. While Voyager is canon, I have trouble with it being used for evidence for very much.

Please, Sisko's father was mentioned as being dead and then suddenly he's alive & a non existant sister. How many inconsistancies did Dax have over the years? How about the Trill changing appearance from TNG to DS9? The Bajorians used to be called the Bajora in the ep. "Ensign Ro". Picard hating children but his dream come true in "Generations" with a family w/ kids. Suddenly on ENT. only a select few Vulcans can mind meld and they're more shady than Andorains. How about the Sulabans "shadowman" that just seemed to dissappear from the show & story.

Shall I keep going?

If we can't use Voyager as evidence due to inconsistancy, then we really can't use any Trek at all because they all made mistakes and/or changes.

 

[Navaros]

I take the view that the DS9 crew gets money and DS9's makers have completely ignored TNG's silly "we don't use money" idea. Which is fitting since the TNG movies completely ignored DS9 and actually contradicted DS9's established canon regarding Romulan Ale.

Although I do wonder if anyone has ever put this question directly to DS9's makers during an interview, and if not, why not?

DS9 shows Bashir, O'Brien and others having and using money. Quark doesn't accept any "barter" crap.

And also, why would the Sisko force Quark to pay for the cargo bay that got busted up by phaser fire if everything in the Federation is free? And considered to have charged Quark for rent money? Makes no sense at all if TNG's "everyone works for free and everything is free" philosophy is applied.

 

[Tralis]

exodus said:

Tralis said:
^
I'd like to point out that making a paradox real turned Janeway into a lizard. Similarly Tuvok has three or four different ages and birthdays. While Voyager is canon, I have trouble with it being used for evidence for very much.

Please, Sisko's father was mentioned as being dead and then suddenly he's alive & a non existant sister. How many inconsistancies did Dax have over the years? How about the Trill changing appearance from TNG to DS9? The Bajorians used to be called the Bajora in the ep. "Ensign Ro". Picard hating children but his dream come true in "Generations" with a family w/ kids. Suddenly on ENT. only a select few Vulcans can mind meld and they're more shady than Andorains. How about the Sulabans "shadowman" that just seemed to dissappear from the show & story.

Shall I keep going?

If we can't use Voyager as evidence due to inconsistancy, then we really can't use any Trek at all because they all made mistakes and/or changes.

I just think that Voyager took a much looser aproach. Every series has plenty of inconsistencies and retcons, I just would argue that Voyager did not spend very much effort in keeping consistent. In DS9 bringing Joesph Sisko to life was a concious decision becuase it offered drama enough to warrant the change. Quoting Tuvoks age as different every time is just being too lazy to check what's been established.

 

[exodus]

Tralis said:

exodus said:

Tralis said:
^
I'd like to point out that making a paradox real turned Janeway into a lizard. Similarly Tuvok has three or four different ages and birthdays. While Voyager is canon, I have trouble with it being used for evidence for very much.

Please, Sisko's father was mentioned as being dead and then suddenly he's alive & a non existant sister. How many inconsistancies did Dax have over the years? How about the Trill changing appearance from TNG to DS9? The Bajorians used to be called the Bajora in the ep. "Ensign Ro". Picard hating children but his dream come true in "Generations" with a family w/ kids. Suddenly on ENT. only a select few Vulcans can mind meld and they're more shady than Andorains. How about the Sulabans "shadowman" that just seemed to dissappear from the show & story.

Shall I keep going?

If we can't use Voyager as evidence due to inconsistancy, then we really can't use any Trek at all because they all made mistakes and/or changes.

I just think that Voyager took a much looser aproach. Every series has plenty of inconsistencies and retcons, I just would argue that Voyager did not spend very much effort in keeping consistent. In DS9 bringing Joesph Sisko to life was a concious decision becuase it offered drama enough to warrant the change. Quoting Tuvoks age as different every time is just being too lazy to check what's been established.

I honestly don't recall Tuvok's age being quoted more than once.

However, I don't see how something major as someone being dead and isn't can be glossed over while the issue of someones age becoming a major issue. Especially considering more people lie about their age than being dead. Is Joe Sisko in the Witness Protection Program?

However, inconsistances in Trek shows isn't really the topic of this post because we could probably go on for days about it. So lets just stick to the topic.

 

[Tralis]

It wasn't actually explicitly said that he's dead as I recall, just heavily suggested. But that's not my point, its more of an attitude thing. DS9 made a strong effort to maintain continuity, far more than VOY did. Also far more of VOY was written by non-staff.

 

[Photon]

Tralis said:

exodus said:

Tralis said:
^
I'd like to point out that making a paradox real turned Janeway into a lizard. Similarly Tuvok has three or four different ages and birthdays. While Voyager is canon, I have trouble with it being used for evidence for very much.

Please, Sisko's father was mentioned as being dead and then suddenly he's alive & a non existant sister. How many inconsistancies did Dax have over the years? How about the Trill changing appearance from TNG to DS9? The Bajorians used to be called the Bajora in the ep. "Ensign Ro". Picard hating children but his dream come true in "Generations" with a family w/ kids. Suddenly on ENT. only a select few Vulcans can mind meld and they're more shady than Andorains. How about the Sulabans "shadowman" that just seemed to dissappear from the show & story.

Shall I keep going?

If we can't use Voyager as evidence due to inconsistancy, then we really can't use any Trek at all because they all made mistakes and/or changes.

I just think that Voyager took a much looser aproach. Every series has plenty of inconsistencies and retcons, I just would argue that Voyager did not spend very much effort in keeping consistent. In DS9 bringing Joesph Sisko to life was a concious decision becuase it offered drama enough to warrant the change. Quoting Tuvoks age as different every time is just being too lazy to check what's been established.

And of course, those suddenly appearing photon torpedoes,,,,,hmmmmmm

 

[exodus]

Tralis said:
It wasn't actually explicitly said that he's dead as I recall, just heavily suggested. But that's not my point, its more of an attitude thing. DS9 made a strong effort to maintain continuity, far more than VOY did. Also far more of VOY was written by non-staff.

Yes, yes, yes, DS9 is loved here and Voy. is hated, I got it. Nothing agianst you at all but I wish to God we all could stop beat that horse already.

 

[exodus]

Photon said:

Tralis said:

exodus said:

Tralis said:
^
I'd like to point out that making a paradox real turned Janeway into a lizard. Similarly Tuvok has three or four different ages and birthdays. While Voyager is canon, I have trouble with it being used for evidence for very much.

Please, Sisko's father was mentioned as being dead and then suddenly he's alive & a non existant sister. How many inconsistancies did Dax have over the years? How about the Trill changing appearance from TNG to DS9? The Bajorians used to be called the Bajora in the ep. "Ensign Ro". Picard hating children but his dream come true in "Generations" with a family w/ kids. Suddenly on ENT. only a select few Vulcans can mind meld and they're more shady than Andorains. How about the Sulabans "shadowman" that just seemed to dissappear from the show & story.

Shall I keep going?

If we can't use Voyager as evidence due to inconsistancy, then we really can't use any Trek at all because they all made mistakes and/or changes.

I just think that Voyager took a much looser aproach. Every series has plenty of inconsistencies and retcons, I just would argue that Voyager did not spend very much effort in keeping consistent. In DS9 bringing Joesph Sisko to life was a concious decision becuase it offered drama enough to warrant the change. Quoting Tuvoks age as different every time is just being too lazy to check what's been established.

And of course, those suddenly appearing photon torpedoes,,,,,hmmmmmm

Replicated casings & I'm sure the Engineeering team knew how to build a detenator as Be'Lanna explained she had knowledge of in "Dreadnaught".

I knew getting on this topic was a bad idea.

 

[exodus]

Navaros said:
I take the view that the DS9 crew gets money and DS9's makers have completely ignored TNG's silly "we don't use money" idea. Which is fitting since the TNG movies completely ignored DS9 and actually contradicted DS9's established canon regarding Romulan Ale.

Although I do wonder if anyone has ever put this question directly to DS9's makers during an interview, and if not, why not?

DS9 shows Bashir, O'Brien and others having and using money. Quark doesn't accept any "barter" crap.

And also, why would the Sisko force Quark to pay for the cargo bay that got busted up by phaser fire if everything in the Federation is free? And considered to have charged Quark for rent money? Makes no sense at all if TNG's "everyone works for free and everything is free" philosophy is applied.

I would assume because the station is Cardassian & Bajorian laborers do use a form of currency. DS9 is still a Bajoran station, not a Federation one. Until Bajor joins the Federation, currency still applies and will apply if the planet under Federation protection still approves the use of currency under their own economy.

 

[Navaros]

^

Federation is running it. So they could still ship in as many of the Federation free labor lackies as needed and demand free materials to be shipped in from any Federation planet. No need to be hiring Bajoran laborers who demand money since that would be an unnecessary expenditure.

 

[exodus]

Navaros said:
^

Federation is running it. So they could still ship in as many of the Federation free labor lackies as needed and demand free materials to be shipped in from any Federation planet. No need to be hiring Bajoran laborers who demand money since that would be an unnecessary expenditure.

That's a very good point but I see it as they would use the Bajorian laborers to 1) Promote good working relations with the Bajorians. 2) Bringing in mostly Fedration workers maybe the equavilant of what out sourcing jobs is too us. This is why the labor force on DS9 was comprised of both Bajorian & Starfleet personel, so tasks would be given out equally. Plus, I would assume Starfleet wouldn't be paying the Bajorian workers, the Bajorian Labor Union would.

Plus DS9 was weeks/months outside of Federation space, which means it would take that long for supplies(if they needed them) to reach DS9.

 

[misskim86]

My theory is that people on Earth pay stuff with replicator 'credits'

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

They'd be fools not to. It's not Latinum.

But credits aren't physical objects, are they?

Hack the mainframe!

 

[misskim86]

They'd probably be digital assets on ones bank account or something

 

[mrs260]

Navaros said:
I take the view that the DS9 crew gets money and DS9's makers have completely ignored TNG's silly "we don't use money" idea.

"I'm a human. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."
"What does that mean, exactly?"
"It means... it means I don't need money."
"Well, if you don't need money, you certainly don't need mine!"

I take that to mean that they follow the "humans don't need money" line, but realize the problems of humans going out and interacting with currency-based economies, and have a sense of humour about it.

DS9 shows Bashir, O'Brien and others having and using money. Quark doesn't accept any "barter" crap.

I'm sure Starfleet realizes that its human members do need money if they're stationed within an alien economy, and pay them accordingly.

And also, why would the Sisko force Quark to pay for the cargo bay that got busted up by phaser fire if everything in the Federation is free? And considered to have charged Quark for rent money? Makes no sense at all if TNG's "everyone works for free and everything is free" philosophy is applied.

Another theory, besides, "Need to pay either the Bajoran government or a Bajoran company to get it fixed," is that it's more a punitive damages thing--both hitting Quark where it hurts for the trouble he caused, and letting Quark know that if he ever does anything remotely like this ever again he's going to throw the book at him. (I suspect he isn't exactly crying over the gangsters and warlords Quark got killed, but I'm sure his life is a lot easier when there's no firefights in the cargo bays.)