That Bajor doesn't join during the series...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Our heroes stated otherwise - they would have preferred having any one of the others, but were stuck with Ro.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's a very interesting perspective. It's one that I think looks at the spirit of DS9 of being able to do their own thing, vs. the simplistic pat style endings, i.e. of course Bajor becomes a member of the Federation. Why? Because....because Star Trek, that's why!

    Bajor not is not a knock against the Federation. It's the ethos of them making their own way in the galaxy.
     
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  3. Vash

    Vash Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks, I agree, there was no value judgment implied on either Bajor or the Federation.

    It seems like a pointed exaggeration for Behr to say that non-joining was the one thing he was proudest of --and that the novels having Bajor become a member, “completely missed the point of the show.” Calling attention to it repeatedly made me wonder if Behr, being from a Jewish background (like many of those involved with Trek), saw Bajor as a version of Judaism, and felt strongly that it should never be “absorbed” by Christianity -- or whatever larger culture the Federation stands for in his mind. The writing throughout is far more subtle and nuanced than that, but maybe a possible explanation.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That is a possible explanation, though it might be even more simple as Bajor joining the Federation is an automatic "end game" for the story. I think Behr would prefer Bajor to be out from under anyone's direct influence, and forge their own future for a time. After a while I would certainly expect them to join the Federation but not for a couple of centuries, after they have healed from the occupation and rebuilt their civilization.
     
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    BTW, can I bring up that in the documentary, after stating that he was proud they ended the show without having Bajor join the Federation, he and the writers began outlining a story that dealt directly with the issue of Bajor's admission?
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sure...? I mean, why not? Was their a ban or something I missed in this first post? O_o

    As I said, the idea of Bajor joining the Federation is so predictable as being almost an unwritten rule in Trek. That Behr would be opposed to it in the novels likely has more to do with his desire to write the story and control Bajor's destiny, than a full on conviction of "No, nay, never!"
     
  7. Vash

    Vash Commander Red Shirt

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    Hadn’t thought about it that way, but true, the hypothetical Season 8 pilot in WWLB had Section 31 as the new villain planning to force Bajor to join the Federation by destroying the wormhole.

    When I read Michael Piller’s comments on “The Emissary”-- co-written with Rick Berman-- it seemed the original intent in having Picard urge Sisko to bring Bajor into the Federation, was to show tension between them…establishing some conflict, not a ‘mandate” for the series to make it happen- though Behr seemed to view it that way. Sisko was sent to the station as the Federation’s ‘emissary,’ and winds up becoming Bajor’s instead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  8. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True. It's not clear who was enforcing the centrality of Bajor's admittance. Berman? I doubt he cared that much, especially given his reluctance over serialization. The studio? We know they were not keen on Bajoran politics. Piller was still a showrunner into the third season, and he was not directing the show to address Bajor and endorsed the shift toward the Dominion--and he was the one who did the most to create the series.

    All the quotes we have from him on this subject seem to come from the last ten years. It's possible that it is more a reflection of conversations over DS9's legacy rather than specifically struggles with the production and the studio about the "mission statement " of the show. The statements about Bajoran admission might be really just Behr's flippant way of saying whatever you think the show should have, we made it ours. That's something we know he was proud of.
     
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  9. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    But he no longer has the power to do that (nor, imho, the right). That's just the thing when you work on a long-running property like Star Trek; it will inevitably pass out of your hands and in those of others.
     
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  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Ordinarily I would think it quite arrogant to assume Bajor would (or should) never join the Federation. Only reason I don't assume that, is because Bajor's culture and history predate the Federation by thousands of years.

    If it were any other world, I'd say Federation membership would be inevitable. Just not necessarily for Bajor.

    Although I think they'll join anyway. Bajor needs Federation help to rebuild, and to protect itself from intruders (esp. since they're so close to the wormhole).

    IMHO, Bajor can ill afford to be so self-important and haughty that they would never need Federation aid, because obviously, they do need exactly that. Not even Bajor can stand alone forever...

    I mean, it's a hostile universe. NOBODY stands alone.
     
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  11. Vash

    Vash Commander Red Shirt

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    To me it seemed the Bajorans were not being arrogant but had a longstanding trust in the prophets / wormhole aliens to protect them....they did prevent the Dominion fleet from coming through when Sisko contacted them in "Sacrifice of angels" - but they had failed to intervene during the many years of Cardassian occupation. Maybe their influence was limited to the wormhole.
     
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  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed but acceptance is hard.
     
  13. DGCatAniSiri

    DGCatAniSiri Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Indeed, one of the things that I get out of DS9 in general is this interconnectedness of the universe - there's a repeated refrain about how, because of the wormhole, DS9 and Bajor are one of the most important places in the Alpha Quadrant. Bajor itself is close enough to the Federation, the Cardassian Union, and the Klingon Empire that all these major forces are regular sights in Bajoran space. And we have this melting pot nature of DS9 itself.

    With that in mind, why SHOULD Bajor stand alone? Doesn't that fly in the face of all of that sense of things being connected? That everything is bound together EXCEPT this one planet?

    Like it was often part of Winn as an antagonist, how she did not want the Federation there. If the end result is Bajor NOT joining the Federation... Doesn't that mean she was RIGHT?
     
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  14. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    The nature of DS9's ending is that the war was over, and there were pragmatic reasons for Bajor not to join while the war was raging. Once it was over, I think that Bajor did join. Had there been a Season 8, post-war, we could have seen that happen.
     
  15. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There's a part of me that thinks it would have been better if the Dominion War ended something like five episodes before the end of the series, so that we see some level of post-war life and cleanup, maybe including having Bajor join the Federation before the series ended, but that's just more idle thinking than actually being bothered by lack of it.
     
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  16. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Enterprise, Voyager, and DS9 all ended kind of abruptly.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Shouldn't they join on their own terms and not because multiple powers are interested in it and trying to sweet talk them or force them to join? It's absurd to say, "Well, the Bajorans just got done with an occupation and really are working to rebuild their society so why don't we have another outside power take over and redefine our society some more?" It doesn't make sense within the show itself for them to automatically join right after the war. They are at the place of trying to reclaim their identity.

    I think they would eventually rejoin, but I see no impetuous for them to join within the show itself save to satisfy clichés.
     
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  18. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

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    The thing is...there is no logical reason not to join the Federation and gain instant access to their nigh-limited resources to rebuild Bajor.
     
  19. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If the Bajor story had been given its due diligence, we would have probably seen the Bajorans renew their hesitation about rejoining. They were again under Cardassian control. Their economy may have suffered from being cut off, even after the return of the Federation, as they were near the front. People may have disagreed with the mining of the wormhole. Indeed, the pahwraith cult points to significant political and social dissatisfaction and a desire to change the direction Bajor was heading. At the very least, Bajor would need time to heal.

    ETA: it's worth pointing out that following WW2, there was a lot of hesitation to create and join multinational organizations like NATO and ECSC (the precursor to the EU). There were too many issues with trust.
     
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  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sure there is. It is to feel independent and control of their own destiny. It's not just, "Oh, we need resources." There is pride, and independence, a desire to feel that they can stand up on their own for a minute, without another foreign power imposing their will upon them. Resources are good and all but when you have been beat down trust is something difficult to come by. It may not seem logical to us but it makes perfect sense from a Bajoran point of view.