Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!
I was rewacthing some episodes and was surprised how much Kira is described as a terroist fighter. You don't hear that description for a hero on tv anymore. Do you think ifthe series came out after 2001 they would have described her differently.
It's been sain than one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter but that distinction seems to be lost these days.
It may have been more difficult to have Kira accepted as a character now. But then she was fighting for the freedom of her people.
I absolutely think she would've been described and portrayed differently. Either she would've been described differently, or the distrust would have lasted a LOT longer between her and Kira, and her penance would have to be much more thorough for all acts that she committed that were indiscriminate. (That attitude in "The Darkness and the Light" was bad enough as it is. These days--completely unforgivable. She would've had to die or be injured at the end of that, I think, for there to be any sense of justice.)
"These days"? It's not like terrorism was invented in the 21st century, is it?
That's one of the things I love about DS9 - they didn't mince words, and used "terrorist" to describe a heroine and one of the main cast of the show, and had her talk openly about the things she had done in her days in the Bajoran resistance. This was never the case in the media. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, the word "terrorist" always carried negative connotations, and news stations and official statements by politicians everywhere were always using words like "freedom fighters" for those terrorist/guerilla groups that were seen in a more favorable light. Semantics were completely a political matter. For instance, the IRA has never been on the US State Department's list of terrorist organizations, while it, of course, most certainly was considered a terrorist organization by the British Home Office. The KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) in 1998/1999 were called "terrorists" by Serbian media and "freedom fighters" by CNN, confirming the proverb.
Absolutely they would have. There no possible way they would describe Kira as a terrorist humorously and in a fond light - like they do on the show - if it were made after 9/11.
Ditto for terrorist tactics present in DS9, like the Jemmies kamikazying their ships into Federation ships like the 9/11 planes, etc.
Ditto also for Kira et. al's terrorist tactics like planting bombs and existing in small networks of terrorist cells.
All of that stuff simply wouldn't be in the show if it were made post 9/11. No way, no how.
Well done! You couldn't have articulated the distinction in a more succinct manner. Attacking targets that never wronged you immediately destroys any moral standing.
Even in cases where there IS an occupation, though, I still think that in order to do so without losing the high ground, the distinction between civilian targets and military ones has to be maintained, or else a "freedom-fighting" organization has lost its integrity. And that's where Kira really failed, in my opinion. Though it may well be that there was no way to take out Pirak without Prin being in the way, she should've at least acknowledged that she needed to atone for that unintended maiming.
If DS9 was made today, things would be different. At the very least, Kira would use some euphemism to describe her past. The makers of Star Trek are pretty spineless nowadays.
DS9 as is would have been better off airing after 2001. It would have stirred up controversy, leading more people to watch it.
Well done! You couldn't have articulated the distinction in a more succinct manner. Attacking targets that never wronged you immediately destroys any moral standing.
Even in cases where there IS an occupation, though, I still think that in order to do so without losing the high ground, the distinction between civilian targets and military ones has to be maintained, or else a "freedom-fighting" organization has lost its integrity. And that's where Kira really failed, in my opinion. Though it may well be that there was no way to take out Pirak without Prin being in the way, she should've at least acknowledged that she needed to atone for that unintended maiming.
Well as an occupation they'd all be military targets whoever worked there. Its not so clean cut war never is. We bomb countries to often satisfy our own agenda, knowings hundreds maybe thousands of civilians will be killed. I think it's amazing that Bajor made peace with Cardassia after just 3 years, it's a shame it wasn't explored more in the series.
There's a difference in tone in American entertainment all right. Not so sure if the rest of the world has really changed much as the result of 9/11. British entertainment at least was quite at ease with the concept of terrorist villains and also terrorist heroes long before that, thanks to the aforementioned Irish issue. Something like V for Vendetta slid right into that marketing slot, being essentially a 1980s product anyway.
Other US shows have done terrorist heroes in this millennium, too: the BSG remake unashamedly roots for heroic baby-killers, to great dramatic effect. Were DS9 done within the past decade, I wouldn't wonder if it were actually more polemic, not less so - perhaps Kira would continue to commit terrorist acts through the show, pissing off Sisko but at the same time acting in support of UFP interests in such a way that Starfleet would tell Sisko to let her continue?
Well done! You couldn't have articulated the distinction in a more succinct manner. Attacking targets that never wronged you immediately destroys any moral standing.
Even in cases where there IS an occupation, though, I still think that in order to do so without losing the high ground, the distinction between civilian targets and military ones has to be maintained, or else a "freedom-fighting" organization has lost its integrity. And that's where Kira really failed, in my opinion. Though it may well be that there was no way to take out Pirak without Prin being in the way, she should've at least acknowledged that she needed to atone for that unintended maiming.
Well as an occupation they'd all be military targets whoever worked there. Its not so clean cut war never is. We bomb countries to often satisfy our own agenda, knowings hundreds maybe thousands of civilians will be killed. I think it's amazing that Bajor made peace with Cardassia after just 3 years, it's a shame it wasn't explored more in the series.
Actually, we are less indiscriminate than we used to be--rather than something like the firebombings of Dresden, where what you describe definitely happened, the effort is being made to do better than that. Is it perfect, or anywhere near it yet? God, no. But, the intent to spare civilians where possible is there.
I did like the honesty of Kira being called a terrorist.
I think Kira might have preferred the notion of "Freedom Fighter" near the beginning, but eventually she came to see the truth in "Terrorist". By then she was a reformed terrorist.
That is, Kira thought her goal in the Resistance was the liberation of Bajor, but came to realize that what she had really wanted was the destruction of Cardassia.
Paraphrasing a prominent earth terrorist on why he was abandoning terrorism, he said that his goal was peace, and that his methods could not achieve that goal, so he needed to change his methods. His subsequent behavior does not cast aspersions on the brilliance of that statement, rather on the genuineness of his sentiment.
Kira came to realize that no amount of violence against Cardassians would sate her thirst for revenge, that her goal should be peace and equality between Bajor and Cardassia, and that continued violence against Cardassians would only pave the way for reprisals in a continuing cycle of violence.
I did like the honesty of Kira being called a terrorist.
I think Kira might have preferred the notion of "Freedom Fighter" near the beginning, but eventually she came to see the truth in "Terrorist". By then she was a reformed terrorist.
That is, Kira thought her goal in the Resistance was the liberation of Bajor, but came to realize that what she had really wanted was the destruction of Cardassia.
Uh, really? What made you think so? There's nothing to suggest that she ever wanted that, and if she had, it would have been incredibly unrealistic. She, and the rest of the Resistance, wanted Cardassians out of Bajor, period.
I like that Kira has a bit of a dark side. Even though she was a terrorist and had killed Cardassians it seemed justified. All through ds9 I could never manage to trust Cardassians, Kira's racism towards them kind of rubbed off on me.
That is, Kira thought her goal in the Resistance was the liberation of Bajor, but came to realize that what she had really wanted was the destruction of Cardassia.
Kira is accused of wanting to kill all Cardassians at least once, by Rusot in Tacking into the Wind, and perhaps on other occasions that I can't recall, but I don't think that was ever an accurate characterization of her goals or attitude. Certainly she would have been willing to kill any number of Cardassians in order to liberate Bajor, but I don't think the extermination of all Cardassians everywhere was something she envisioned (though it was perhaps not something she would have shed any tears over).
Kira definitely has a racist view of the Cardassians in the beginning: she seems to consider them to be universally cruel and evil. This is something she gradually overcomes, beginning in Duet, continuing through her relationship with her Cardassian "father," Ghemor, and eventually of course in fighting for the liberation of Cardassia in the final arc. It's quite a powerful and convincing transformation.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that her point of view on terrorist tactics really changes all that much. Certainly, she does not enjoy killing, and suffers spiritually due to the violence she has committed. This is evident as early as the first season episode Battle Lines. However, I think she continues to perceive her actions in the resistance as necessary and justifiable given the circumstances. She is willing to participate in a similar resistance movement in season 7 on behalf of the Cardassians, as part of the war against the Dominion.
Overall DS9 portrays terrorist activities as a potentially legitimate tactic, not as inherently evil. Terrorism is placed on about the same place on the moral scale as open warfare, i.e. it is to be avoided if possible but undertaken if necessary in order to preserve or obtain one's freedom from an invading or oppressive power.
One of the things that makes DS9 interesting is that it dealt with a bunch of themes that were not in the forefront of the American public's collective mind when the show was on the air, but that soon would be, and will likely remain prominent for the foreseeable future. As such, it was able to get away with portraying, for example, terrorist tactics in a more ambiguous light than would have been possible post 9-11 for a show like Trek. This is one reason why the show has aged so well, and why I think it will continue to age well.
In a way, what DS9 does in this regard is more impressive than nuBSG in the sense that nuBSG comes at a lot of these questions after they have already become a central preoccupation of American culture, whereas DS9 got there ahead of time. For example, changeling and Cylon infiltrators are two versions of the same basic concept and allow their respective shows to deal with similar themes of paranoia and the erosion of a society's trust in itself. (Of course Ronald Moore had a hand in creating both of them.) Episodes like Homefront/Paradise Lost seem almost eerily prophetic. Anyone who watched these today without knowing when they were made would naturally assume they were made with 9-11 specifically in mind. The tradeoff of course is that nuBSG deals with these questions more thoroughly and makes them a central part of the show's premise, rather than merely a phase that the show passes through over the course of a season and a half or so, as is the case on DS9.
I always found the contrast between Kira's view and Shakaar's view of the resistance to be interesting. Kira viewed them as terrorists and used that term to describe both herself and Shakaar (though not to his face). Shakaar, on the other hand, used the term soldier to describe their actions in the resistance.
The Maquis were another example of the shades of grey surrounding the terrorism issue. They were a ragtag group, and as such, they had varying motivations for joining. I have more respect for the ones who were fighting for their land, or because they thought it was the right thing to do to help out those who lost their land or were being oppressed, but I have little respect for the ones who just had a chip on their shoulder and were looking for a fight.
^ Interestingly enough, my father had a very negative reaction to the Maquis on DS9. Having lived in Algeria, he saw the Maquis as being like the Organisation de l'armée secrète, a pied-noir (European-descended) terrorist group intent on preventing Algerian independence.
Speaking of the Maquis and people with chips on their shoulders, I’m surprised no one’s mentioned Eddington yet. If I recall the DS9 Companion correctly, part of the impetus for making him a Maquis came out of his speech at Sisko’s promotion, where Eddington basically said he’d be a security officer for the rest of his life. Frustrated ambition linkedup with (or spawned a) disenchantment with Federation ideology (“you’re just like the Borg!”), causing him to defect for what he saw as a new, worthy cause. I think that’s one of the most interesting—and pretty accurate—portraits of someone turning towards terrorism I’ve seen in television.
Absolutely they would have. There no possible way they would describe Kira as a terrorist humorously and in a fond light - like they do on the show - if it were made after 9/11.
I don't think the reference was every made humorously, but I think if she HAD been described as a terrorist and the show was made post-9/11, it would have been rightly viewed as some sort of 'commentary' on the war on terror. Both Lost, 24 and BSG had 'terrorist' heroes, and used that word to refer to them.
Not 'no way, no how', as plenty of shows HAVE done this since 9/11. The difference is that those shows were commenting directly on 9/11 and the existing War on Terror, whereas DS9 was able to be more honest about the word terrorist because the word didn't have such dramatic associations for American viewers. Remember that Kira basically saw the Cardassians as Nazis and Gul Dukat as Hitler. And that Iraqi 'freedom fighters' who want the US out of Iraq use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals and are called 'terrorists' as a result. I'm not saying the US forces are anything like Cardassians, but if you want to draw some parallels, there are an eerie amount- the Cardies, like the US, claimed that they were only on Bajor to 'help' them.
Of course, the actions of the Cardassians spoke far louder than their words--I may be one of the Cardassians' biggest fans, yet I am one of the LAST to defend them when they screw up. When they do, they do it horribly and bring irreparable harm to many. They said they wanted to "help" but anyone with eyes could see what they were doing. And that's where the parallel utterly and absolutely breaks down.
I always found the contrast between Kira's view and Shakaar's view of the resistance to be interesting. Kira viewed them as terrorists and used that term to describe both herself and Shakaar (though not to his face). Shakaar, on the other hand, used the term soldier to describe their actions in the resistance.
The Maquis were another example of the shades of grey surrounding the terrorism issue. They were a ragtag group, and as such, they had varying motivations for joining. I have more respect for the ones who were fighting for their land, or because they thought it was the right thing to do to help out those who lost their land or were being oppressed, but I have little respect for the ones who just had a chip on their shoulder and were looking for a fight.
Defiant. Major Kira working with the Maquis in some fashion is a natural fit and probably the biggest missed opportunity for that character in the whole series. Instead the only follow-up we get to season two's excellent two-parter is an amalgam of a mediocre guest appearance, a stillborn one-episode romance and a bad showcase for the new starship. Even with Riker involved, this could have been a much better story had it built on Kira's empathy for the Maquis and desire to support them against the Cardassians.
I agree that "Defiant" was a little disappointing considering all its the ingredients - Tom Riker and Kira, the Maquis, Dukat and Sisko, the Obsidian Order, the Defiant - but I don't agree with your opinion on Kira and the Maquis. I agree she would have some sympathy for them (as seen in "The Maquis"), but I don't think she would have worked with them, and I don't even think she had that much in common with them as you imply. For starters, Kira took her responsibility as a second in command on the crucial Bajoran space station too seriously to get involved with helping a terrorist group. Even back in "Past Prologue", we saw that she understood that the time of fighting Cardassians was over and that the present and future of Bajor was to live in peace, and in the next couple of seasons we saw her adjusting to her new role; and by season 3, she didn't show any mistrust and resentment towards Starfleet, and respected Sisko, and certainly wouldn't have undermined him.
Second, I thought that DS9 always treated the Maquis with a mix of sympathy and irony, and made the difference between them and the Bajoran resistance very clear. Which brings me to Jimmy Bob's earlier point - the Maquis did start as a group of disgruntled farmers who had lost their land, but it seemed that very soon it got flooded with ex-Starfleet officers and a bunch of other people from the Federation who were not from the DMZ, but who either were outcasts in Starfleet, had a problem with the Federation mainstream values and methods, or just fell for the romanticism of the whole idea and wanted to be rebel outcast heroes (in addition to people who just wanted to fight Cardassians for whatever reasons, and people who just wanted to get a chance to kill and fulfill their violent impulses, like Lon Suder). Kira in this episode mocks Riker at one point, basically saying that he is a lame wannabe terrorist who is in over his head, still thinking like a Starfleet officer (very similar to what Dukat told his Maquis captors when he was mocking them "The Maquis"). The Maquis seemed to have become a fashionable guerilla movement, kind of like the Greek uprising against Ottoman Turks was fashionable in the 19th century when Lord Byron went to fight in it (unlike the uprisings in other countries under Ottoman rule, which didn't matter to the Western European public since their names were not 'Greece'). They come off a bit like a bunch of kids who wear Che Guevara T-shirts and one day decide to start an anarchist movement, but proceed to blow buildings and people up, which makes them dangerous kids. It's not like Bajorans, who fought because they were living under a brutal occupation and in really awful conditions, and no wannabe heroes from Federation and other worlds were joining their ranks (it would have been extremely difficult to do that even if they wanted to). Kira and Riker might have bonded a little, but it was ultimately obvious how different they were: Riker defected to the Maquis because he wanted to be a hero and to assert his identity. (I wonder if we're ever going to see another Maquis leader with a hero complex on this show... ) Kira didn't fight because she wanted to be a heroine, she fought to free Bajor, she fought because she had little choice. She didn't fight because it was romantic, in fact, she makes it clear numerous times in the show that it wasn't romantic, it was damn ugly.
As she said in "Return to Grace": "I've already been where you're going. I've lived the life you're choosing - fighting, hit and run, always outgunned, living on hate and adrenaline... It's not much of a life. And it eats away at you, so that every day a little bit of you dies."
I love the way that DS9 didn't sanitize the resistance, and pointed out the reality, that they were killing Cardassian civilians, and that they were blowing up Bajorans as well when they needed to - because that was what it took, and the only way to fight their oppressors Cardassians was to become as ruthless as they were.
Kira eventually becomes a resistance fighter again only when it was really necessary and when the stakes were truly huge.
In a way, what DS9 does in this regard is more impressive than nuBSG in the sense that nuBSG comes at a lot of these questions after they have already become a central preoccupation of American culture, whereas DS9 got there ahead of time. For example, changeling and Cylon infiltrators are two versions of the same basic concept and allow their respective shows to deal with similar themes of paranoia and the erosion of a society's trust in itself. (Of course Ronald Moore had a hand in creating both of them.) Episodes like Homefront/Paradise Lost seem almost eerily prophetic. Anyone who watched these today without knowing when they were made would naturally assume they were made with 9-11 specifically in mind. The tradeoff of course is that nuBSG deals with these questions more thoroughly and makes them a central part of the show's premise, rather than merely a phase that the show passes through over the course of a season and a half or so, as is the case on DS9.
There's a huge difference between the Bajoran resistance as described on DS9 and the Human resistance on New Caprica in BSG - and that difference is that the tactics and actions of the Bajoran resistance made perfect sense, while the suicide bombings on BSG made no frakking sense.
Which is the main reason why I always hated Tigh's actions on New Caprica and very much disliked the resistance - while, ironically, everyone - especially the conservatives - were going on about how BSG is allegedly on the side of the 'insurgents' and suicide bombers. A part of it is that suicide bombings on the whole are something I have a bigger problem with than blowing up enemy forces (i.e. I have a problem with people who are willing to sacrifice others - their own people - that way), as well as well as deliberately targeting your own civilian population (remember, Tigh wanted to bomb the marketplace, which fortunately did not happen), but my main problem is in the stupidity of the whole thing in the circumstances - which nobody in the show ever observed on. I loved the New Caprica arc, but this is my major gripe with it. Someone should have at least acknowledged the fact that, in the situation where there is less than 40,000 Humans left in the universe, if you're supposed to be fighting against the Cylons and for the survival of the Human race, it is completely absurd and counterproductive to send Humans to die (and they will die for real) in order to blow up other Humans (who will also die for real), a bunch of Centurions (who are very numerous and considered expendable by the Cylon leadership) and several humanoid Cylons (who will soon resurrect and feel the 'death' as just painful and annoying experience). Certainly something else like capturing Cylons and keeping them in captivity would have been a better tactic to scare the Cylons, while Tigh's tactics would never make them so afraid to decide to leave the Humans alone, and would have never been successful if Adama hadn't come back with the fleet. And since the Cylons and the Humans were alone in the universe, the Cylon leadership were not beholden to any sort of pressure from other powers, were not bound by economic matters relating to their 'country' back home, and were driven just by a combination of religious zealotism and genocidal hatred (rather than a wish to exploit the subject people and their land, as Cardassians were) - there was no reason for the pissed-off Cylons not to just nuke the planet and destroy the Human population of the planet (which, indeed, one of the No. 5/Doral Cylons suggested at one point) or try to decimate their numbers (as No.1/Cavil suggested).
There's nothing to suggest that she ever wanted that, and if she had, it would have been incredibly unrealistic. She, and the rest of the Resistance, wanted Cardassians out of Bajor, period.
) Kira didn't fight because she wanted to be a heroine, she fought to free Bajor, she fought because she had little choice. She didn't fight because it was romantic, in fact, she makes it clear numerous times in the show that it wasn't romantic, it was damn ugly.
