Spoilers Terminator: Dark Fate Review and Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by David cgc, Nov 3, 2019.

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Grade Terminator: Dark Fate

  1. A+ “Come with me if you want to live.”

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  2. A

    6 vote(s)
    10.3%
  3. A-

    5 vote(s)
    8.6%
  4. B+ “I’ll be back.”

    13 vote(s)
    22.4%
  5. B

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  6. B-

    6 vote(s)
    10.3%
  7. C+ “Chill out, dickwad.”

    5 vote(s)
    8.6%
  8. C

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  9. C-

    4 vote(s)
    6.9%
  10. D+ “All you know how to create is death and destruction!”

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  12. D-

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  13. F “I know now why you cry.”

    5 vote(s)
    8.6%
  1. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know, purely from a character standpoint it seemed consistent with her outlook in T2. Her assumption in DF wasn't that a women couldn't be "the saviour" but that others would only see a woman as a walking incubator for "the saviour".

    Also, I'm not sure how anyone could miss that Sarah was and is a militant feminist (literally), I mean just look at John's reaction. He's heard this rant before...a lot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's hard to reason that Judgement Day is only 4 weeks upstream.

    Being Human had a great take on a baby messiah. Because there was a prophecy baby, all other heroes sat back and waited, and waited, and waited, for the prophecy baby to tack a whack at the apocalypse, who never got around to saving the world.

    It was actually an evil prophecy, to help out evil, so the baby all grown up, time traveled back and killed herself before she put heroism into a holding pattern as evil set up shop and closeded down people.
     
  3. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's a question of basic math. James Cameron made Sarah the mother of the savior in T1 because, by the time of his figuring of the future war and the time displacement device (2029), Sarah, assuming she was born the same year as Hamilton, would be 73 - not exactly prime fighting age, especially in a post-nuclear wasteland. (Also, Sarah had to be the mother to make a closed time loop story, which all the sequels necessarily threw out.)

    By 2020, however, 2029 is less than a decade away. Granted, the Legion future is a different timeline than the Skynet future, but machines and AI have come a long way since 1984. So, when presented with a 30-ish woman (though Reyes could well have been playing several years younger) who she's told is the future of humanity, Sarah has no logical reason to assume the alleged savior will be the woman's son, rather than the woman herself - but the movie's male writers have her do so anyway.

    Didn't Dark Fate Sarah also specifically assume the alleged new savior would be a son of Dani's, and not a daughter? In which case, your post is more bluster than cogent reasoning.
     
  4. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    I was reading the latest issue of Cinefex yesterday, and one of the fun things about the magazine is they discuss the visual effects of the movie in roughly plot-order, so they serve as a very rough synopsis of the movie as it was being made. Sometimes things are glossed over because they're irrelevant or to obscure spoilers, but sometimes they reflect an earlier version of the movie (the big example being Will Smith's I am Legend, whose breakdown described the original ending well before it was publicized anywhere else).

    Anyway, the article mentions as an aside that Dani being the resistance leader is revealed in Grace's first flashback, where she was fighting the terminators with her squad and was injured, rather than being a twist late in the film. It could be Sarah's ongoing belief that Dani was the new Sarah and not the new John was something that was added late in the movie, perhaps to underscore the generational shift on a meta-level (a woman going from being the hero's mother to the hero, or the meme going around a couple years ago with clips from Star Wars and Wonder Woman about how the princesses of '80s films have become the generals of today's).
     
  5. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sarah is nine years younger than Linda.
     
  6. The Borgified Corpse

    The Borgified Corpse Admiral Admiral

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    I think it had less to do with the math of when the future war happened and more to do with wanting the twist of Kyle Reese being John's father without realizing it. Also there's a certain poetry to the idea that, while we might think that our own lives are meaningless, we have no idea what we might do that has a profound impact on generations not yet born. In that respect, having her be a second hand savior feels a bit more apt.

    Were it not for those elements, I don't think Cameron would have had any qualms with moving up the dates of the future sequences to be in the '90s or early '00s or something with Sarah being the leader. The Terminator was made in the '80s, back when everyone seemed to assume that we would be nuking ourselves sooner rather than later anyway.
     
  7. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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  8. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
  9. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  10. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've never seen that before, it was hilarious.
     
  11. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I want a Shakespeare trilogy of films just like that.
     
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  12. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You should definitely watch The Last Action Hero. Extremely underrated.
     
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  13. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who wouldn't pay to see this movie?
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I hope this thread isn't too old to revive. I discovered they had this movie on Paramount Plus, so I finally watched it. I was misled by the poor reviews and the box office failure. I really liked this one. It would be faint praise to say it's the best Terminator movie since T2 -- any movie that achieved minimal competence would at least surpass everything since T3 -- so let's say it's the first actually good Terminator movie since T2. (Full disclosure, I haven't actually seen Genisys, but from what I've read about it, I think it's unlikely that I'd change my opinion if I were to see it.)

    I did feel the action was way over the top, that it just kept going and going and going, but fortunately there was some nice solid character work and ideas and relationships anchoring it all, and a good script with well-written dialogue. (When Carl the Terminator was speaking with such urgency about the color of the drapes in a little girl's bedroom, I thought to myself, "This is an absurdist masterpiece!") The cast all did solid work. Hamilton nailed Tough Old Lady Sarah, and Dani and Grace were both effective leads. I liked that it did something similar to The Sarah Connor Chronicles' notion that one genocidal AI or another will emerge eventually, but went beyond that and had it not be a version of Skynet but something different. And I liked the meta element of subverting the white male chosen one conceit of the original in favor of something more modern and inclusive.

    I see a lot of complaints about how it just rehashes the formula of the earlier movies, but I think that's kind of the point -- that Terminators only have one formula, that they're trapped and limited to do this one thing over and over, and what makes things different is the humans, who they are and how they interact and respond. The sameness of the plot was there to contrast against the novelty of the characters and their roles. We're set up to expect a rehash and then it gets subverted. I liked it that the target of the Terminator revealed her true strength and became the heroic leader even earlier than she did before, so the Terminator caused the very thing it was sent to prevent.


    That's not all she did. As she said, she's spent the past 20-odd years hunting down other Terminators when alerted by her anonymous informant (i.e. Carl). So she's presumably been connected to a string of violent incidents all over the place, a decades-long spree of what the authorities probably consider criminal mayhem and terrorism.


    The name itself is telling. "Legion" means a multitude, many acting as one -- like the demon from the Bible, "My name is Legion, for we are many." And Sarah was talking about the modern surveillance state, how there are devices monitoring and tracking us everywhere, and we saw drone warfare as well. So it seems to me that Legion is a more decentralized threat, possibly an emergent consciousness in the Internet or at least the military intranet. It's probably not just one computer or program, but a whole global network.


    The reason seemed obvious to me. She identified with Dani. She's been living with the consequences of her own Terminator experience for decades. It's shaped her entire life since then. And let's face it, she's kind of old and thus probably likely to be set in her ways. So it's no surprise that she'd be a little inflexible and slow to realize that Dani's situation was not a direct analogy to her own.
     
  15. Groot

    Groot Boomer American Premium Member

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    As often is the case, you're missing the point - the forest for the trees. Simply because a repetitious formula is built into these movies doesn't make them one jot better. It means the franchise is badly flawed conceptually. It makes the movies bad.

    This one was bad. The end.
     
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  16. Evil Headhunter

    Evil Headhunter Scarecrow Keeper Premium Member

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    For you.

    But, again, your opinion isn't fact.

    I don't know why it's so troublesome for you that people like Christopher, myself, and clearly a fair number of people in this thread at least enjoyed this film, if not outright loved it.
     
  17. David S. Pumpkins

    David S. Pumpkins Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Very unpopular opinion, but Genisys is actually a guilty pleasure of mine. I enjoy time traveling, alternate reality shenanigans (even if they don't particularly make a hell of a lot of sense :) ). If you turn your brain off for about two hours, Genisys is pretty enjoyable in a PG-13 Terminator-John Connor Character Assassinating- kind of way. It's also available on Paramount+ (hint, hint!)
     
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  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    See, there's the problem. I like movies that engage my brain, not require me to muzzle it.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  20. Cancel Culture

    Cancel Culture Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I do not need to engage my brain all the time. Often I want my entertainment to engage my brain, but at times I really don't. "Entertaining" is a rather impossible to define term that I'm satisfied simply to apply to a performance (or film) that I enjoyed experiencing. A pie in the face doesn't really engage my analytical mind very much, but I can laugh out loud and enjoy myself, and have.

    One of my "guilty pleasures" is The Core. If one were to grade it on the level of scientific accuracy, it would flop pretty hard. But fidelity to science isn't the defining trait of science fiction, and nor is it required to be entertaining. Things that make The Core good are the characters and the drama. The scene of Lindo's character throwing the switch to allow decoupling is a masterpiece scene of heroic sacrifice; I don't really care about the science. The scene of Qualls's character searching for the location of the seismic weapon gives a compelling indication of an evident transformation in his character for the better. Etc.

    All that said, Dark Fate wasn't on the same level of T1, not even close, and nor did it make it up to the plane of T2. It's more on the level of T3, give or take. That makes it better than the others, but what is that saying? These are, of course, all just my personal opinions.