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Teen reviewer unimpressed by Walkman

So it's significantly better
Indeed. MP3 players and iPods are absolutely revolutionary both technologically and the impact that they have had on society, and they are becoming even more so. The gun analogy is not very applicable because guns operate on the same basic technology, cassette players and digital music players do not. The impact to everyday society of those guns pales in comparison to the impact of digital music players.

Also, about how it was easier to use new music on cassettes: I can go on my ipod, completely separately form my computer, touch the screen in a certain pattern and very quickly listen to nearly any song I want.
 
If that's the only flaw you could find in my extended analogy, then I think I did pretty well.

My analogy can accommodate this new information as well. While modern assault rifles lack the long-range accuracy of their counterparts from a hundred years ago, most soldiers are still incapable of realizing more than a fraction of their potential accuracy under any kind of battlefield conditions. That's why the US Army has sunk so much money recently into programs like Advanced Combat Rifle and Objective Individual Combat Weapon, with so little result.

That was just the most immediate one... and hey, I'm not nearly well versed enough in the history of firearms to directly respond to most of your analogy. But once again, you've glossed over the functionality that modern DAPs are capable of in how they handle data and I don't see how you can't treat that particular bit as anything but revolutionary. Having your entire library of music in near-CD or real-CD quality sound and being able to dynamically chose what to listen to as you're doing it is much more then a simple iterative change but represents a fundamentally different way of handling music. If you're using the idea of accuracy to represent sound quality, then many of the features of DAPs which emerged as a consequence of moving to a digital storage medium aren't present in your analogy at all.

My guess is that you simply don't see that sort of thing as that important, which is I guess fundamentally where this disagreement is coming from!

There's a lot of other emergent things that have come out of it as well that haven't really been touched on here... such as the ability to purchase new tracks directly from the device itself. Not a feature of all DAPs yet, but certainly present in the iPhone/iPod Touch and the Zune. The Zune also, for instance, has the ability to wirelessly share tracks with other Zunes (of course you have to actually be in proximity to another Zune to do this, so I've only had the chance once :p). I don't see either of those as iterative because to me it seems like an entirely new way of looking at music then before... essentially it's now just information and is divorced from the physical medium. That's what you're really getting when you go from analog to digital. Though I'd actually downplay some of the other things that people are using as examples of what DAPs can do.... because a lot of that is really just a convergence of what's really a PDA which is another story entirely.
 
Well, while I enjoyed my Walkman and its ability to let me listen to the radio and play audio cassettes, on my iPod I can:

- Access every one of the thousands of songs I own, with still more room than I could ever need. Search to find said songs by title, artist, album, genre, rating, recently added, recently played, etc.
- Watch movies, TV shows, YouTube videos, download podcasts, and listen to audio books.
- Watch live TV and listen to live radio with accessories.
- Play games.
- I can use it as a portable hard drive for viewing maps, text files, books, photos, etc.
- Use the calendar and contact list.

All in something a little bigger than a deck of cards with no batteries that frequently need changing.

Yes.

So?

C'mon man, what are you driving at here? It's clearly a massive leap in function over the Walkman. I'm not one of those people who thinks everything old(er) is primitive and worthless, and I'm even a bit of a technophobe, but I can also look at the two objectively and see that the iPod is a vast improvement in numerous ways.

I just don't get the hostility you seem to have on the subject either. Calling someone a "parrot" for agreeing with someone else on what should be a lighthearted discussion, and claiming it shows a lack of historical perspective for judging the Walkman significantly less functional? Really?
 
One could argue that this whole system will lead to the death of the album at least in a physical form (something I don't like, but is certainly possible).
I hope not :lol: Seeing as nobody seems to give a crap about sound quality today, the death of red book means we'll get nothing but terrible sounding low bitrate MP3 for years to come :eek: Then again seeing as hardly anybody has half a clue how to mix + master things properly these days, it's not like new CDs sound that much better.

People these days are so used to hearing highly compressed, lossy audio through terrible equipment that they don't know any better, and it's quite sad. Even with all our technological advancements like larger storage on portable devices and faster internet connections, people still choose to listen to poor quality audio. They see the extra space and faster connections as "LOL I CAN DOWNLOAD AND STORE MORE SONGZ".

It doesn't take a trained ear to tell the difference between a low bitrate MP3 file, a compact cassette and a vinyl. Most people might not have ears good enough to hear the differences between an SACD and a CD, or a high bitrate MP3 file and a CD, but the others are very easy to compare side-by-side.

I guess when you're on the move and listening to something through cheap earbuds, it's not so easy to hear the difference, and it might be worth compressing everything to maximize your storage space for such an application, but most people seem to think low bitrate MP3s sound "fine" even in proper listening conditions. Maybe it's because they just don't know any better.
 
I sense a long reply where I break down quotes. Apologies in advance for that.

No need.

That must be why we've built so many roads, and parking lots, and gas stations, and other infrastructure to accommodate automobiles: because they're not all that different from horses.

Well, no, that was to address the shortcoming of the automobile.

This just evades my point.

The automobile is not only essentially different from the horse: these esssential differences have led to profound transformations of both society and the physical environment.

By comparison, the impact of the MP3 player has been trivial.

One could argue that there are apparatuses for MP3 players that were created specifically for it that don't exist for a walkman (devices like iHomes to play music, plus online music stores, which, once again, didn't exist for cassettes because the technology wasn't there).

Yes, one could. But one could not argue that the iPod has had anything like the impact or significance that the automobile has had.

And that is the whole point here: the wild and unsubstantiated claims that you and other posters have been making for the revolutionary significance of what are really fairly minor technological advances.

My parrot? What the flying fuck?

Read his replies, and you'll see what the flying fuck.

Anyone who quotes someone else's post, and then adds a single word like "this" is just parroting.

The transfer to digital music is meaningless?

That's not what I said. I don't reply to mischaracterizations and misquotes.

Honestly, as a history major, I try and take the long view to things and see what little change profound events can seem to have (I'm someone who believes that William the Conqueror's invasion of England didn't radically alter the social system of the nation much less bring in so-called feudalism to the nation and lead to the modern English system of law). However, when looking at the progression of technology in history, there can be no doubt that it has been advancing at an exponential rate. We are now in the digital age and technology thirty years ago is very far behind what it is today. These aren't superficial differences.

Well, as a history professor, I give you credit for trying to take the long view. I just don't think you're succeeding.

Some technologies have advanced very rapidly in the past thirty years. But others have advanced slowly, while others have hardly advanced at all.

What's more, in many cases, the stagnant technologies are far more significant to far larger numbers of people than the showy brilliancies of the so-called "digital age."

All the digital gadgetry in the world can't compare for importance to simple things like cement or corrugated iron, both of which were invented in the mid-19th century, and have remained basically unchanged ever since.

The building of the information superhighway has been far less significant to far fewer lives than the building of the Kinshasa highway in the Congo, which let the AIDS virus escape and begin its slow burn through the human population.

And the humble cargo container has done more to revolutionize world trade, and the world itself, than any form of information technology.

A book that might help you break the spell of techno-hype is David Edgerton's The Shock of the Old: Technology and Global History since 1900. At the very least, it will give you a more balanced perspective on the relative importance of today's information revolution compared to the second industrial revolution more than a century ago.

The idea of digital music and the mp3 player has threatened the entire order of the music industry.

I've omitted most of this paragraph.

None of the the music-industry trends you described therein began with digital technology. They began--surprise, surprise--with the cassette tape. I vividly remember picking up a cassette recording of the In God We Trust, Inc EP by the Dead Kennedys, released in 1981. The B-side was left blank, except for the following words: "Home taping is killing record industry profits! We left this side blank so you can help." The introduction of digital media only accelerated a pre-existing trend.

That's where I disagree. To argue it's superficial changes based on the fact that uses are similar doesn't make sense. If we go with weapons analogies, it's closer to a crossbow and early guns in that the principle behind them is different. Except one thing, crossbows were probably better.

That must be why European armies were so quick to discard the crossbow in favour of primitive handguns--because crossbows were better.

Actually, crossbows were better, in some respects--but not in others. And it was those other respects that proved decisive.

In any case, I developed my weapon analogy much more fully in a later post.

The iPod offers at least slight advantages in most things compared to the Walkman.

Well, I'm glad we agree on one thing.

I'm just wondering why you're saying this as if you were somehow contradicting me. IIRC, I even mentioned those slight advantages in an earlier post.

I think that furthers my point. Part of the reason why there's such a dramatic step between the Walkman and the mp3 player is that there was a step in between the laid the foundation.

That makes no sense. You're arguing that incremental progress is more "dramatic" than a single leap.

Before the Walkman, there was nothing. The only way to listen to recorded music while walking around was to carry a boombox on your shoulder, like a character in a blaxploitation movie.

Before the MP3 player, there was the Walkman. And the Discman, which, like the Walkman, evolved over time, becoming smaller and less battery-hungry. And false starts like the DAT and the Minidisk, both of which failed to supplant the cassette. And then finally, after years of trying and failing, the industry finally came up with a format that was superior to the cassette.

The first is revolution. The second is evolution.
 
Geckothan, all of the music I have on my iPod is above my transparency level. Well, actually that's not true, I have one song from my brother that is not.

That said ipods aren't meant for archival purposes, just enjoyment.
 
Geckothan, all of the music I have on my iPod is above my transparency level. Well, actually that's not true, I have one song from my brother that is not.

That's great, but most people just see the large storage capacity as a way to fit as many songs on there as possible regardless of quality. I have quite a few MP3s in my collection but they're all 320kbps CBR or ~245kbps VBR (extreme preset in LAME). To tell the truth, the extreme preset in LAME is transparent to me for most music on most hardware. With good headphones and more complex music, I'd notice the difference side by side, but for the most part it's more than adequate.

On the other hand, most people just encode everything to 128kbps. I can understand why people would do that if they were only going to listen to them on cheap earbuds, or they had so much music that they needed to compress it so much to fit it all in their device of choice, but otherwise I can't see any good reason for using such a low bitrate.
 
Well, while I enjoyed my Walkman and its ability to let me listen to the radio and play audio cassettes, on my iPod I can:

- Access every one of the thousands of songs I own, with still more room than I could ever need. Search to find said songs by title, artist, album, genre, rating, recently added, recently played, etc.
- Watch movies, TV shows, YouTube videos, download podcasts, and listen to audio books.
- Watch live TV and listen to live radio with accessories.
- Play games.
- I can use it as a portable hard drive for viewing maps, text files, books, photos, etc.
- Use the calendar and contact list.

All in something a little bigger than a deck of cards with no batteries that frequently need changing.

Yes.

So?

C'mon man, what are you driving at here?

Well, what are you driving at here? What was your point? Were you making a particular point about the technical capabilities of the Walkman vs. the iPod, or a more general point? We're discussing all sorts of things in this thread, and you can't expect to just rattle off a list of functions, and then sit back as if there was nothing more to say.

It's clearly a massive leap in function over the Walkman.

It's not 'clearly' a 'massive' leap over anything. The value of every single feature you listed is purely subjective, and relative to the consumer.

Access to thousands of songs? So what? Are you saying you didn't have access to your thousands of songs before, in the form of a record, CD, and tape collection?

Well, no--you just couldn't carry them all around with you before! Okay--but, so what? Like I said before: you can only listen to so much music in a day. Most of the music on my iPod just sits there, unlistened-to.

Watching movies and TV and YouTube videos? Who wants to watch TV on an iPod, with that tiny little screen? I sure wouldn't--and I have taken bus trips that have lasted for days.

The same goes for reading the items you mentioned. Who wants to read an iPod, when they can read an actual book--or some kind of electronic book device--or even your laptop?

Play games? You mean, like solitaire? I'd rather sleep.

Judging from your list, you seem to be arguing that the iPod combines a decent portable music-player with a piss-poor substitute for a real TV, PC, EBD, and game console--all in one tiny little package.

You may find that a vast improvement over a walkman. But in my opinion, piss-poor substitutes aren't vast improvements over anything--no matter how many of them you cram into one device.

I'm not one of those people who thinks everything old(er) is primitive and worthless, and I'm even a bit of a technophobe, but I can also look at the two objectively and see that the iPod is a vast improvement in numerous ways.

Objectively, huh?

I just don't get the hostility you seem to have on the subject either.

You don't? Well, it has something to do with being told that I'm blind to the clear and vast and massive advances embodied in this revolutionary device--and that if I'd just look at it objectively, I'd see that it's a technological breakthrough comparable to the automobile.

It also has something to do with being called 'retarded' for holding such an obviously unpopular opinion.

Calling someone a "parrot" for agreeing with someone else on what should be a lighthearted discussion,

You mean, the one where people are calling me retarded, and you mods aren't doing a damn thing about it?

and claiming it shows a lack of historical perspective for judging the Walkman significantly less functional? Really?

That's not what I said. Once again: I don't reply to mischaracterizations and misquotes.

And if you truly are wondering why I'm being so hostile--having my words repeatedly mischaracterized and misquoted has something to do with it as well.
 
Then again seeing as hardly anybody has half a clue how to mix + master things properly these days, it's not like new CDs sound that much better.
Well, what do you expect when all you need these days is a computer capable of running Pro Tools? Digital technology, in general, has hurt American music in a lot of ways, and not just in the pocket book. Making an actual album is a dying art, and so is the live show.
 
On the other hand, most people just encode everything to 128kbps. I can understand why people would do that if they were only going to listen to them on cheap earbuds, or they had so much music that they needed to compress it so much to fit it all in their device of choice, but otherwise I can't see any good reason for using such a low bitrate.

That is transparent for many. Including myself. Many people do not have great hearing.

Oh, by the way, Camelopard, seriously? You're hysterically funny. There's only a few thing on the ipod (speaking on the ipod touch) that are "piss-poor substitutes" none of the entertainment functions either. Mainly the email and browsing capability.

If you want to look at the revolutionary aspect of the ipod and similar devices, look at its effect on society.
 
Calling someone a "parrot" for agreeing with someone else on what should be a lighthearted discussion,
You mean, the one where people are calling me retarded, and you mods aren't doing a damn thing about it?

I didn't notice anyone calling you retarded. Pardon me for not being omniscient. Did you hit the notify button before complaining about us not doing anything? No, you didn't.

Now that you've mentioned it though, consider this fair notice to everyone in the thread to not call anyone else names, and generally try and keep things in perspective that this is a discussion about iPods and Walkmans and not the fate of the free world.

Now, was I being hostile to you? No. So how about getting off my back so we can discuss the rest of your post normally when I have more time?
 
I hope not :lol: Seeing as nobody seems to give a crap about sound quality today, the death of red book means we'll get nothing but terrible sounding low bitrate MP3 for years to come :eek:
I've been terrified of this.

NO digital file representation can replace any physical medium. I can only hope the artists work hard to keep it around. There is simply a degree of artistic license that a physical medium provides that is lost in file form.

Though I suppose the idea the artist has any rights any more at all is being a bit idealistic.

Then again seeing as hardly anybody has half a clue how to mix + master things properly these days, it's not like new CDs sound that much better.
Well I think the problem is a bit paradoxical.

I don't think it's a matter of people not knowing a good master so much as it is they're encouraged to do it in a certain way. There are plenty of excellent sound engineers out there. Unfortunately the "industry" has created this artificial vapid sound, people get used to it to the point they expect it, and then, in turn, the "industry" must further suck the soul of the music to keep up.

Also, I think the problem is only exacerbated because no one knows how to use an equalizer these days. Why bother making a good mix when no one is going to take advantage of it?


People these days are so used to hearing highly compressed, lossy audio through terrible equipment that they don't know any better, and it's quite sad. Even with all our technological advancements like larger storage on portable devices and faster internet connections, people still choose to listen to poor quality audio. They see the extra space and faster connections as "LOL I CAN DOWNLOAD AND STORE MORE SONGZ".
Well, I think that's a bit unfair. Really, the file size difference from a mp3 at 128 to 320 and a flac file is a big more significant than you seem willing to acknowledge. It might seem small on an individual level, but when you're talking thousands (or in my case tens of thousands) of files, it does add up.

I'd love have everything on in flac, but for me to have my entire catalog of music in flac files, it would probably take a good terabyte. At this point I can't justify it either practically or economically.

I'm currently in the process of updating everything from lower rates to 320. As it is, I had to buy a separate hard drive to keep them on. Plus, there's the endless hours of work of re-ripping everything and tagging it. And once I'm done, I figure it should be good enough for five years anyway.

And frankly, anyone who says they can tell a significant difference between an mp3 @ 320 and a flac, ape, or wav without a $300 sound card and a $200 pair of recording headphones is being asinine and pretentious.

It doesn't take a trained ear to tell the difference between a low bitrate MP3 file, a compact cassette and a vinyl. Most people might not have ears good enough to hear the differences between an SACD and a CD, or a high bitrate MP3 file and a CD, but the others are very easy to compare side-by-side.

I guess when you're on the move and listening to something through cheap earbuds, it's not so easy to hear the difference, and it might be worth compressing everything to maximize your storage space for such an application, but most people seem to think low bitrate MP3s sound "fine" even in proper listening conditions. Maybe it's because they just don't know any better.
Well, I think it goes back to the EQ thing. The funny thing about cutting out the inaudible frequencies is, even though you can't hear them, that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Incidentally, an equalizer (a decent one at least) doesn't segregate the frequencies you can't hear and the ones you can. As a result, removing them will only limit the ability of the EQ.

But since people hardly pay attention the EQ anymore, or when they do, pick whatever preset sounds appropriate to whatever they're listing to, I guess the fact that it's so much more dynamic and responsive with files of a higher bit rate is completely lost on them.
 
That's not what I said. I don't reply to mischaracterizations and misquotes.

My point being that, for the music industry, the transfer from cassette tape to a digital recording is just as important as the transfer to gasoline power in the transportation industry.

Well, as a history professor, I give you credit for trying to take the long view. I just don't think you're succeeding.

Some technologies have advanced very rapidly in the past thirty years. But others have advanced slowly, while others have hardly advanced at all.

What's more, in many cases, the stagnant technologies are far more significant to far larger numbers of people than the showy brilliancies of the so-called "digital age."

All the digital gadgetry in the world can't compare for importance to simple things like cement or corrugated iron, both of which were invented in the mid-19th century, and have remained basically unchanged ever since.

The building of the information superhighway has been far less significant to far fewer lives than the building of the Kinshasa highway in the Congo, which let the AIDS virus escape and begin its slow burn through the human population.

And the humble cargo container has done more to revolutionize world trade, and the world itself, than any form of information technology.

A book that might help you break the spell of techno-hype is David Edgerton's The Shock of the Old: Technology and Global History since 1900. At the very least, it will give you a more balanced perspective on the relative importance of today's information revolution compared to the second industrial revolution more than a century ago.

Absolutely true, but it misses my point. When talking about cultures, you have to narrow it to more than "all of humanity". So, when talking about western civilization compared to even 10 years ago, the amount of ways the internet has become integrated into our lives is astounding. To me, the iPod isn't the cause of this, but mp3 players are connected and can't be removed from the equation. For me, in the cultural aspect, the key part is digital music and I think it will have the biggest impact on entertainment since the transistor radio. If the transistor radio led to the youth culture that could break free from their parents and lead to the rise of rock and roll, the fact that music can be spread through the internet means that the industry is no longer tied to record labels.

None of the the music-industry trends you described therein began with digital technology. They began--surprise, surprise--with the cassette tape. I vividly remember picking up a cassette recording of the In God We Trust, Inc EP by the Dead Kennedys, released in 1981. The B-side was left blank, except for the following words: "Home taping is killing record industry profits! We left this side blank so you can help." The introduction of digital media only accelerated a pre-existing trend.

I tend to agree that it began with cassettes since I've pointed out that the same arguments record companies use today was used against cassettes. I also can't say that independent music can only rise through the internet since, afterall, the biggest bump in independent music was when The Offspring managed to get a number one hit off of Epitaph records (and that's thanks to Nirvana paving the way, which is partially thanks to the genius of Sub Pop records basically creating a cohesiveness that attracted major records to the Seattle music scene). But there's no doubt that this acceleration of a pre-existing trend isn't a small one, but massive.

I've cut through some of this talk because I think I'm losing the forest to the trees. By arguing with everything you say, I'm losing track with what the hell we're talking about. I've kept the stuff above because the idea of just what is to come from the digital age and how we got there interests me. But, in some ways, it combines the worst of science and history together. It's basically speculating ahead and then looking back from a historical perspective of the significance of what could theoretically happen. I think you see trends of what's happening, but we'll have to wait and see.

That makes no sense. You're arguing that incremental progress is more "dramatic" than a single leap.

Before the Walkman, there was nothing. The only way to listen to recorded music while walking around was to carry a boombox on your shoulder, like a character in a blaxploitation movie.

Before the MP3 player, there was the Walkman. And the Discman, which, like the Walkman, evolved over time, becoming smaller and less battery-hungry. And false starts like the DAT and the Minidisk, both of which failed to supplant the cassette. And then finally, after years of trying and failing, the industry finally came up with a format that was superior to the cassette.

The first is revolution. The second is evolution.

First off, nothing comes from nothing. Everything evolves from something else. Technology is developed and then combined into something seemingly revolutionary. In the area of walking around listening to music, it's a vast improvement, but, yes, it's just an improvement (which is why I compared riding a horse to driving a car. In doing what it does, it is a vast improvement). But I think the improvement is so much so that, to bring this back to the original story, a walkman doesn't seem like a good piece of technology to someone used to an iPod.

In terms of its impact, I tend to think things have changed significantly because of mp3 players. I actually think this change is bigger than the change that a walkman brought. A walkman allowed people to go to the gym or go on a run while listening to music. That's nice. If you were in one place, a boom box would let you play your own music or a radio would let you play other music. Yes, a walkman boosted the sales of cassettes, but that's becoming a dead medium. I'd argue that the discman wasn't an equivalent because it was created in response to CDs, which people would have bought either way. But mp3 players fueled online music (no iPod, no iTunes store), which has grown considerably in size and has changed the format of music (leading to the idea that you can own a song instead of an album or that a physical copy isn't necessary).
 
But he's right, isn't he? Compared to today's technology, a walkman looks a horse-drawn carriage compared to the space shuttle. ;)

You mean--an iPod looks like a dead-end piece of technology from the 70s, that cost far more and delivered far less than was promised, and killed a bunch of its users?

I agree with the first two points, but not the third. The shuttle program has had two failed missions (with complete loss of crew and equipment) out of over 120. That puts your "bunch of...users" killed at under 2%.
 
Then again seeing as hardly anybody has half a clue how to mix + master things properly these days, it's not like new CDs sound that much better.
Well, what do you expect when all you need these days is a computer capable of running Pro Tools? Digital technology, in general, has hurt American music in a lot of ways, and not just in the pocket book. Making an actual album is a dying art, and so is the live show.

It's sad but true. Although part of my hope is that digital piracy will increase the quality of live shows since bands make their money in their tour, not their album.
 
Then again seeing as hardly anybody has half a clue how to mix + master things properly these days, it's not like new CDs sound that much better.
Well, what do you expect when all you need these days is a computer capable of running Pro Tools? Digital technology, in general, has hurt American music in a lot of ways, and not just in the pocket book. Making an actual album is a dying art, and so is the live show.

It's also helped it a lot... you've just got to take the good with the bad, I suppose. We're moving beyond just DAP's now, but the internet and digital music distribution have allowed a multitude of artists to get exposure... and sales... from all over the world, many of them sustaining profitability in a way that a few decades ago would never have been possible. I think that's pretty exciting.

CorporalClegg said:
NO digital file representation can replace any physical medium. I can only hope the artists work hard to keep it around. There is simply a degree of artistic license that a physical medium provides that is lost in file form.

Er, redbook is a digital representation it simply happens to be transported in the physical medium of CDs. But it is absolutely a digital format... a WAV file uses the exact same encoding method that CDs do. If you rip a CD to WAV (with the correct sample settings) you have lost absolutely nothing and if you then compress it with a lossless format like FLAC you continue to have lost absolutely nothing.

If you want to argue that all digital formats have lost something from analog ones, then go for it... but by the time something is in redbook on a CD you've already lost whatever you think that something is.
 
My point being that, for the music industry, the transfer from cassette tape to a digital recording is just as important as the transfer to gasoline power in the transportation industry.

No, I don't agree. The impact of the internal combustion engine on the transportation industry was far greater.

The internal combustion engine created whole industries that had never existed before, in the form of the automotive and aviation industries. Whole cities were built around the production of these vehicles, which have had a revolutionary impact on our culture. The fate of continents has hinged on the abilities of warring states to concentrate capital and technical expertise in these new industries, and produce newer and better military versions of these vehicles.

So far, all digital recording has managed to do is accelerate the decline of the recording industry--much as the internal combustion engine accelearted the decline of the commercial horse-breeding and wagon-building industries. The impact of digital recording just isn't in the same ballpark as the impact of the internal combustion engine, even within a single industry.

Absolutely true, but it misses my point. When talking about cultures, you have to narrow it to more than "all of humanity".

Oh? Why do I have to do that?

I teach courses in twentieth-century world history, in which I encourage my students to think globally, and assess the impact of things like technological change on a global scale. Why can't I do that here, too?

So, when talking about western civilization compared to even 10 years ago, the amount of ways the internet has become integrated into our lives is astounding.

Maybe. That may also be true in other developed areas as well. But in other areas, cheap cell phones are much more important than the internet. In still other areas, none of these information technologies are worth much of anything.

But we were talking about iPods, not the internet. And you still haven't explained to me why we should give more weight to about 20 per cent of the human race than we do to the remaining 80 per cent, when assessing this technology's impact.

To me, the iPod isn't the cause of this, but mp3 players are connected and can't be removed from the equation. For me, in the cultural aspect, the key part is digital music and I think it will have the biggest impact on entertainment since the transistor radio. If the transistor radio led to the youth culture that could break free from their parents and lead to the rise of rock and roll, the fact that music can be spread through the internet means that the industry is no longer tied to record labels.

Maybe it will--but that's just speculation. I thought we were talking about history.

When and if your prediction comes true, I will concede that this technology has had as profound an impact as you say--but not before.

I've cut through some of this talk because I think I'm losing the forest to the trees.

Well, I don't know about you, but I am arguing against the idea that the iPod represents as great a technological advance over the Walkman as the automobile represented over the horse. And by extension, that people nowadays exaggerate the importance of recent technological advances, compared to previous technological advances--especially those which, like the automobile, came out of the Second Industrial Revolution. As important as the internet may have become over the past ten years, the revolution wrought by the telephone was more profound and far-reaching still--in part because it made the internet possible. If the internet looks bigger, that's only because it's closer.

But if you're going to cut through some of this, then we might as well cut through all of it. I can tell when I'm just pissing into the wind.
 
Now, was I being hostile to you? No.

Actually, yes--you were.

I challenged you to explain the significance of your post. Whereupon you got all defensive, as if your meaning were somehow self-evident, and started both criticizing my conduct in this thread, and using insultingly loaded language.

As far as our discussion goes, you initiated hostilities--not me.

So how about getting off my back so we can discuss the rest of your post normally when I have more time?

No, thanks. I'm done with this.
 
But if you're going to cut through some of this, then we might as well cut through all of it. I can tell when I'm just pissing into the wind.

You know what? We might as well just leave it here. I can see neither of us will convince the other. I could expand on my points for hours and we'd still be here having just wasted more of our time.
 
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