Technology from TOS to TNG?

[James Wright]

How has technology changed from TOS to TNG?
Transporters, Medical, Warp Engines, how have starships changed?
I know that there have been improvements in the tecnology I listed but how much?

JDW

 

[USS Valkyrie]

Probably quite a bit.

 

[Timo]

Things we actually hear have changed (and these aren't many):

-Warp scale now stops at Warp 10 (so supposedly Federation science has learned deeper secrets of the warp phenomenon since TOS)

-Common cold has been defeated (McCoy didn't yet know how to cure that one)

-Replicators have been made practical aboard starships (Janeway insisted that people back in the days of ST6:TUC didn't yet have those, and while she might be exaggerating a bit, I think we can rest assured that her words would hold true for TOS, two further decades up the river of time)

-Holodecks have been made practical aboard starships (again by Janeway's words in VOY "Flashback", although cruder VR systems have no doubt been in use ever since the 21st century, and non-shipboard systems might have been commonplace)

-Warp fields no longer have to be phase-locked to within 3% (something that surprised Scotty mightly in "Relics", and might have something to do with why TNG warp is faster and looks different)

-At least the best starships are way bigger and more comfortable (by Scotty's words)

Other changes we might infer, even if they aren't mentioned. But sometimes we might infer wrong. For example, are modern transporters more advanced in allowing a person to move during transport? Or are we simply misinterpreting the TOS evidence where people freeze before and after transport, when in fact we always witness that they have moved between those two freezes (no actor can reproduce his or her initial pose perfectly at the destination set or location, and sometimes the actors move a lot).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

If TNG episode in which Kirk's chief engineer was found is any indication, then I would say the technology changed quite a bit.
Scotty was practically clueless about anything he touched let alone tried getting his hands on to fix.

The thing about LaForge saying that impulse drives haven't changed that much over a span of 2 centuries is a bit idiotic, but I guess that tending to Scotty's ego was just as equally important.

It was quite evident the tech underwent a large change over the span of 80 years ...
I mean, look at our own progress over the past 50 years alone.
With the Federation having 150 different species working together, the technological development is bound to be fast and the changes involved would be staggering to say the least when an interstellar organization as the Federation is involved.

I have to admit though, that I didn't like how the writers conveniently decided to forget almost everything that was used as a plot device to get our heroes out of trouble on several occasions.
If anything the technological stagnation along with some projects that involved the development of anti-Borg technologies which were paused (the Defiant being put on hold for some time because the Borg were not considered an immediate threat - I mean, HELLO ? ) was quite the unrealistic portrayal and only served to display how higher ranks of SF never really learned anything from the past but were repeating the same mistake that happened prior to their encounter with the Borg.
Effectively speaking, yes the Federation was developing, but Q wanted to see them face one of the worst things in the Galaxy before they were supposed to (whenever that was supposed to happen to begin with) and see how they would adapt.
It started off good, but then slowed down to a crawl and sporadic bursts to give it more 'drama' by the writers who could have just as easily do the drama without downgrading anything.

Then again ... if we ignore certain goofs, I would say that upgrades (which are, as evident on screen quite effective) to internal systems are primarily what SF is relying on most of the time before changing the external designs and technology underwent a complete makeover that was witnessed from TOS to TNG.
And we also have to keep in mind that there is a possibility how changes to designs could occur at a faster pace as technology evolves.

 

[Timo]

Would the "150 species working together" approach really hasten development, though? Or just stagnate it when everybody had a pet project nobody else believed in?

There'd be some synergy for the first few decades as the UFP came together. But the interval from TOS to TNG no longer falls on those decades...

And some things really fail to develop, even against expectations. Otto engines and automobiles are basically unchanged on their second century. Some fairly insignificant fiddling with items unrelated to the basics have changed the look and feel of these things somewhat, but the technology has not made any leaps that would prevent today's LaForges from telling yesterday's Scotties that nothing has really changed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Would the "150 species working together" approach really hasten development, though? Or just stagnate it when everybody had a pet project nobody else believed in?

There'd be some synergy for the first few decades as the UFP came together. But the interval from TOS to TNG no longer falls on those decades...

And some things really fail to develop, even against expectations. Otto engines and automobiles are basically unchanged on their second century. Some fairly insignificant fiddling with items unrelated to the basics have changed the look and feel of these things somewhat, but the technology has not made any leaps that would prevent today's LaForges from telling yesterday's Scotties that nothing has really changed.

Timo Saloniemi

Comparing our own progress with the Federations is a moot point due to the fact that there are species in the Federation which were more advanced than humans.
And also add to that how different species devise their own approach to numerous problems and technologies ... those aspects only go in favor of the Federation.
And yes, while stagnation is a real possibility, the only reason it really happened was because the writers felt it would increase the drama.
Ds9 is a shining example of this because of the Defiant project being delayed by years simply because SF considered the Borg to not be an immediate threat.
Realistically speaking, SF knew the Borg would be coming and in TNG they were rushing to make those techs available asap.
Stagnation is a possibility, but not very likely one for the Feds as they are constantly out there exploring with crews being in potentially dangerous situations ... I'd say that is a good enough reason why Q stated the Feds were the best in comparison to Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians and the likes.

 

[Unicron]

More technobabble.

I think LaForge was referring to the basic elements of the impulse engine not changing drastically. The basic elements of our internal combustion engines are still the same as they were in Henry Ford's day and they still operate on the same principles. Only the technology has been streamlined.

I've never really liked the idea of "no replicators before TNG." Partly because I've yet to see an explanation for how the TOS "food slots" actually work, and from onscreen appearances I can't find much distinction from a replicator.

 

[Timo]

Ds9 is a shining example of this because of the Defiant project being delayed by years simply because SF considered the Borg to not be an immediate threat.
Realistically speaking, SF knew the Borg would be coming and in TNG they were rushing to make those techs available asap.

One might also argue that Starfleet realized how idiotic it ultimately was to design superweapons like the Defiant. Those could never hope to kill more than one Borg Cube, after which the next one would be all the more dangerous. And the Defiant, or a hundred Defiants, didn't seem to be good enough for killing even that single Cube before it had time to adapt, or to pass on the information needed for the next Cube to adapt.

Better keep fighting the Borg with primitive weapons that would not benefit the enemy, or then concentrate resources on something that kills with one shot. And that can hopefully be modified ever-so-slightly so that it can also fire a second deadly shot later on, perhaps even a third.

Of course, with more conventional enemies, it would still be a classic rat race. But perhaps Starfleet's worst competitors didn't offer much incentive for development? The Klingons don't appear to advance in great leaps between TOS and TNG, so any weapons R&D expended against them would be wasted at best, beneficial to enemy spies at worst. The Romulans were an unknown quantity. And the other known foes in fact seemed less advanced than TOS era Klingons, so the Federation might well have decided it didn't need advanced weapons for the next century or so, and might well have been right about that one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Fighting with same (non-upgraded) weapons would have kicked the Federation into the stone age if they tried it during FC and Earth would have been assimilated.
The Sovereign class Enterprise sure didn't inflict damage that got the cube destroyed in one shot.
The ship dealt a final blow with several other ships which happened after the cube was already locked in combat with SF ships for hours (which did have way better success with the cube than the battle of Wolf 359).

The Feds still had the option of modifying existing techs while working on something entirely different which they did, but the fact the Defiant project was delayed for years is just plain stupid.
The argument used was pointing into the direction that SF brass got arrogant (yet again), and realistically speaking, that would not happen.
Realistically, the Defiant class would have been produced in large enough number to help in border patrols/defense of inner Federation systems.

Also ... having a full fleet of ready Defiant class ships would have helped the Feds against the Dominion.
One other thing ... if the Feds decided to use old weapons against the Borg, then they wouldn't have bothered with creation of the Sovereign, Akira, Defiant and Prometheus class (just to name a few).

 

[Timo]

Fighting with same (non-upgraded) weapons would have kicked the Federation into the stone age if they tried it during FC and Earth would have been assimilated.

Umm, except we never saw evidence of modern superweapons in use, and yet Earth prevailed. Unless one counts a handful of quantum torpedoes fired by the E-E, or a volley or two from the pulse phasers of the Defiant, neither of which seemed to do much damage. The "heavy external damage" wrought on the Cube was apparently thanks to classic ships like Miranda, or classic weaponry aboard more modern ships like Nebula or Akira. And the decisive shots were thanks to conventional firepower under "insider" fire control from Locutus of No Longer Quite So Borg.

Realistically, the Defiant class would have been produced in large enough number to help in border patrols/defense of inner Federation systems.

But she was a failed design. Her propulsive systems did not work: she nearly tore herself apart on trials. Her other assets did not appear decisive, as the pulse disruptors of a Bird of Prey could do the same job as her pulse phasers (remember the ambush in "Time to Stand"?), and the quantum torpedoes never featured much in the fight against the Dominion.

Why mass-produce a failed silver bullet when something like Saber, apparently with tried and true solutions, might be mass-produced in its stead, probably in greater numbers for the lower unit price?

if the Feds decided to use old weapons against the Borg, then they wouldn't have bothered with creation of the Sovereign, Akira, Defiant and Prometheus class (just to name a few).

They didn't bother with the Defiant, that's the point here. And there's no evidence that either Sovereign or Akira would be a post-Wolf 359 design, or that the Prometheus would be intended to fight the Borg, or be particularly good at it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Is there really that much of an advancement or more like a matter of some incremental chnages on the whole? If I may, how much advancement exist between the NX-01 and Kirk's NCC-1701?

 

[James Wright]

Do you believe the Klingon Empire will eventually become part of the Federation?
If it does, I wonder how their scientist's, doctors & engineer's fare!?

JDW

 

[JoeZhang]

there is no real advancement - it's still a man with a radio and a raygun looking at a big TV - in-universe we hear about technology improvement but it has no real impact on what we see - Ships still travel at plot speed etc.

 

[Unicron]

Do you believe the Klingon Empire will eventually become part of the Federation?
If it does, I wonder how their scientist's, doctors & engineer's fare!?

JDW

Personally, no. The idea was initially planned during the early phases of TNG, and was even mentioned in the FASA TNG Officer's Manual, but I think the political alliance is more realistic.

 

[Basill]

More technobabble.


I've never really liked the idea of "no replicators before TNG." Partly because I've yet to see an explanation for how the TOS "food slots" actually work, and from onscreen appearances I can't find much distinction from a replicator.

One word. Tribbles.

 

[trash80]

If anything the technological stagnation along with some projects that involved the development of anti-Borg technologies which were paused (the Defiant being put on hold for some time because the Borg were not considered an immediate threat - I mean, HELLO ? ) was quite the unrealistic portrayal and only served to display how higher ranks of SF never really learned anything from the past but were repeating the same mistake that happened prior to their encounter with the Borg.

Some things will never never change.

 

[Deks]

Umm, except we never saw evidence of modern superweapons in use, and yet Earth prevailed. Unless one counts a handful of quantum torpedoes fired by the E-E, or a volley or two from the pulse phasers of the Defiant, neither of which seemed to do much damage. The "heavy external damage" wrought on the Cube was apparently thanks to classic ships like Miranda, or classic weaponry aboard more modern ships like Nebula or Akira. And the decisive shots were thanks to conventional firepower under "insider" fire control from Locutus of No Longer Quite So Borg.



But she was a failed design. Her propulsive systems did not work: she nearly tore herself apart on trials. Her other assets did not appear decisive, as the pulse disruptors of a Bird of Prey could do the same job as her pulse phasers (remember the ambush in "Time to Stand"?), and the quantum torpedoes never featured much in the fight against the Dominion.

Why mass-produce a failed silver bullet when something like Saber, apparently with tried and true solutions, might be mass-produced in its stead, probably in greater numbers for the lower unit price?



They didn't bother with the Defiant, that's the point here. And there's no evidence that either Sovereign or Akira would be a post-Wolf 359 design, or that the Prometheus would be intended to fight the Borg, or be particularly good at it.

Timo Saloniemi

And you think the fleet that battled the Borg in FC did not undergo weapon upgrades ?
Hardly ... if they didn't, then the cube would have got to Earth with no damage whatsoever.
The anti-Borg technologies were supposed to be brought into service about 14 months after the initial Wolf 359 battle.
That gave SF more than enough time to bring those techs into service by upgrading existing ships and even further enhancing them prior to FC.
The heavy damage the cube suffered was thanks to the fleet, and once the Enterprise E arrived it helped deliver the crippling blow.

SF was working on a starship design which was intended to fight/defeat the Borg (the Defiant) and when the ship proved to be unstable (which was quite frankly expected) they gave up on it.
So why exactly did they keep her in 'cold storage' just so they can hand it to Sisko a year or two later ?
Sorry but O'Brien and DS9 crew in general were able to solve most of Defiant's issues in just a few days and then fully stabilized it shortly after their mission to the GQ to find the Founders was finished.

I'm guessing someone at R&D is slacking (seems to be a recurring theme actually because they gave up on just about any new thing that presented a challenge only to state an episode later how they don't give up just like that despite the issues).

Sisko clearly stated that the work on the Defiant was stopped because the Borg threat was not an immediate one (a rather lame/horribly stupid excuse) and not because SF thought that the ship was a failed design.

Ok ... so the Saber class was supposed to have been a tried and proved design, right ?
Then why didn't the Federation create some 300 of those ships, upgraded to the max and sent them to fight the Borg ?
No ... the writers messed things up (as usual) and portrayed how the top brass at SF got arrogant yet again (which is idiotic to begin with because they knew the Borg are a huge threat that can ensue at any time).
They could have resumed work on the Defiant, solved it's problems (since I highly doubt O'Brien is smarter than the whole SF engineering corps put together), and mass produce it so they can have them in readiness.

The Dominion War would have probably went better for the Federation if our side had even 100 Defiants on standby.
Heck, the only ship to undergo real upgrades was the Lakota.
And if SF did those kinds of upgrades for all ships, I think the War would have been a wee bit different.
But I guess drama was more important, while realistically speaking such a blunder would never happen.

To our knowledge the Sovereign, Akira and Prometheus (along with the Defiant) were ALL post Wolf 359 designs.
It's true we don't know weather or not the Sovereign, Akira or the Prometheus were intended to fight the Borg, but one would think that such a premise would be part of any new ship design that features decent amount of weapons and shields for protection.

 

[Deks]

Some things will never never change.

'Realistically' speaking, things WOULD have changed.
But the writers felt in necessary to employ 'increase the drama by dumbing down everything else' approach.

 

[trash80]

I dunno i think man's inability to learn from history shows no signs of ever changing.

 

[Wingsley]

How has technology changed from TOS to TNG?
Transporters, Medical, Warp Engines, how have starships changed?
I know that there have been improvements in the tecnology I listed but how much?

JDW

Transporters - comparing TOS to TNG, it would seem that the beaming process is faster and more reliable.

Medical - the funny thing about both TOS and TNG is that we never saw either McCoy or Crusher working in a field hospital environment. The closest thing we saw was Chapel beaming down to Amerind in "The Paradise Syndrome" to help McCoy.

Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks, but I'm not sure we ever actually saw a medical laboratory aboard the Enterprise-D; McCoy definitely had one in TOS. TNG didn't seem to emphasize Sickbay as a place for drama as TOS seemed to.

Warp engines - short answer: warp factors appear to be faster from TMP forward, in comparison to TOS. As far as warp drive and related subspace technologies go, I would point out that in "The Enterprise Incident", the Enterprise was captured inside Romulan space, and it was noted "a subspace message will take three weeks to reach Starfleet." In TNG's "Heart of Glory", Riker said a message would take 48 hours from the Neutral Zone over subspace. While the two situations are not identical, there is a suggestion that subspace radio in the 24th century is faster.

Starships - It would appear that, from the Excelsior forward, the size of Federation starships ballooned significantly. This seemed to be to accommodate both larger crews and more extensive quality-of-life for the crew. (Example: holodeck)

Computers - TNG shipboard computers seem to respond more quickly to human commands. They also seem more predisposed to human conversation. I would say one step backward would be the notion of only two officers being required to engage the starship self-destruct mechanism in TNG seems to make less sense than the grander ritual seen in TOS.